 Useless weapons?, A look at some unlikely items |
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 Nov 23 2003, 02:25 AM
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#51
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Immortal Elf  Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890  |
No, that's with firearms. With melee weapons, Ambidexterity 3 is all you need; you don't get a +2/+2 penalty when using two melee weapons, unlike firearms. Technically you don't even need to get Ambidexterity 3. Off-Hand Edged Weapons 4 (Knives 6) (5 Skill Points) does the same thing for these purposes.
As for the Aptitude, you also realize that the rules intend/suggest that Aptitude not be taken for combat skills. But now you're just going into "what ifs." I did specifically state "if all other things are equal." We could go on and on debating "what ifs," introducing more and more modifiers, maneuvers, and techniques until the cows come home. |
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Nov 23 2003, 02:29 AM
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#52
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Cows?
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Nov 23 2003, 02:48 AM
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#53
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Target Group: Members Posts: 58 Joined: 8-November 03 Member No.: 5,802 |
The whole thing is a matter of timing, and skill.
I see a knife as a weapon of convienence; most armed services spend more time teaching you how to shoot small arms in various situations than they do in how to use a knife with the same proficiency. Even in ancient/medieval times, you trained with larger weapons as the primary weapon; knives were just something you took for a tool for various jobs (including slitting throats, or stabbing someone unconscious under their armor). There is also another consideration. If the person using a knife is faster (i.e., rolls a higher Initiative) than the other guy using bare fists, it's possible that the knife-guy can inflict more stab wounds faster than the other guy. Since he's damaging the other guy first, he also inflicts TN penalties, which make it easier to not be hit, and so forth and so on. Honestly, quick guys with a knife CAN do much better; they can send a flurry of slashes and stabs that just slice some poor sucker up. If my opponent was slower than me, regardless of other considerations, yeah, I'd take a knife instead of going barefisted, assuming I intended to do lethal harm. |
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Nov 23 2003, 02:59 AM
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#54
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Err, Initiative doesn't really matter all that much in melee combat (sadly). No matter how high your Initiative is, no matter how quickly and efficiently you can move in a stressful situation, your opponent *always* gets as many counterattacks against you as you get attacks against him.
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Nov 23 2003, 03:01 AM
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#55
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Wait... I'm still confused about the cow thing here... :P
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Nov 23 2003, 03:07 AM
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#56
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
They have medication for that.
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Nov 23 2003, 03:14 AM
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#57
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Yay! :wobble:
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Nov 23 2003, 03:21 AM
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#58
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 665 Joined: 20-November 03 Member No.: 5,834 |
Yeah, we could go into what ifs and play with edges forever. I would remind you of who started pulling out edges to bolster his position in the first place however. Your "If all other things are equal" notion is a bit absurd, you're saying if everything is equal except that your character has two weapons and an edge worth six points, then a knife can actually compete with a fist. That's like saying your team can win a football game if all the opposing players have the kneecaps broken first. If you give yourself an entire extra skill and specialization you can compete with a man with his bare hands, although again your damage code is still inferior. You keep having to pull out advanced optional rules and you combine them with a relatively huge bonus of 21 karma worth of skills just to match a guy with his bare hands and base skills. With that much extra karma the fist character could have his unarmed combat skill at 2 or 3 additional levels, again cancelling out the advantage you've given yourself. Doesn't it seem to you that if you need an extra advantage of over 20 Karma in order to merely match your opponent, your weapon is clearly inferior? |
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Nov 23 2003, 03:28 AM
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#59
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
There is no "clearly inferior" weapon, here. It's all dependant on who can get more successes to take the other guy down. A knife might start at L, but you can dikote to make it M. You can't dikote your fist. :D
OK, OK, cyberarms don't count. |
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Nov 23 2003, 03:28 AM
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#60
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Yes, please do remind me who pulled out the edges first. I'll give you a hint, it wasn't me (it was Dende and yourself). Here's a quick refresher's course... Moonstone Spider:
First, you were wrong on the cost of the edge as well as the target number, both of which I simply proceeded to correct. You certainly didn't seem concerned about the Fisticuff Fellow having an Aptitude or anything else there, so why now beyond the fact that your attempt to disprove Dende's claim has fallen apart? Not trying to be rude or anything (honestly). My point is simple. If some the Knifely Knave with Off-Hand Edged (Knives) 4(6) or Edged (Knives) 6/Ambidexterity 3 takes on the Fisticuff Fellow who only has Brawling 6, the odds are all in the Knave's corner. Assume the Knave is a runner and the Fellow is a ganger or the like if it makes you feel better about the disparity in Priorities/Build Points. |
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Nov 23 2003, 03:29 AM
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#61
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Target Group: Members Posts: 58 Joined: 8-November 03 Member No.: 5,802 |
Cows and medication? Wow. Sounds like a weekend to me...
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Nov 23 2003, 03:46 AM
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#62
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 665 Joined: 20-November 03 Member No.: 5,834 |
I also don't have any desire to cause hurt feelings and I apologize for confusing your post with Dende's. And I agree with your point, given that many advantages a knife fighter will beat an unarmed man. But my point is, you're knifely knave can only beat the ordinary fisticuff fighter by drawing on advanced rules and then it only works if he's given either a very expensive edge or else has a huge bonus of karma handed to him to buy extra skills. In any position in which the character's are assumed to have equal skills, as opposed to the knife fighter being given almost twice as many or an edge, the knife fighter loses. |
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Nov 23 2003, 09:24 AM
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#63
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
If we compare a basic knife fighter with the standard knife (which is essentially the Streetline Special of edged weapons) to someone equally skilled in fisticuffs, the fist fighter will most likely win. Both have the same chance of success, and the short-term wound penalties are the same for stun and physical damage. Therefore, the fist fighter will win the battle of attrition with a higher base damage code.
However, when you are building a runner, the ambidexterity and off-hand skill options provide a devastating advantage. Unarmed combat already assumes that you are using both hands. With 50% more dice, the edged weapons specialist wins hands down - it all comes down to dice. The only way a fist fighter can combat this is to get two shock gloves, so that he or she can take advantage of the same two-weapon rules. But even though you use your unarmed combat skill for shock gloves, I wouldn't consider someone using them to really be "unarmed". |
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Nov 23 2003, 01:30 PM
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#64
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Especially considering how broken Shock Gloves are. Few other weapons (such as Capsule Rounds) do "double damage" with each attack.
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Nov 23 2003, 01:32 PM
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#65
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
It's not that the weapons are useless per se, but the rule system doesn't cover them particularly well.
Example: I cut a target's throat. I inflict (Str)L damage. I therefore have to saw through the target's neck repeatedly before the target dies. Example 2: I put a Colt Manhunter to my head and pull the trigger. I take a 9M. I say "Ouch!" and pull the trigger again. Suicide must be a bitch if you only have a skill of 1 or 2. -Siege |
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Nov 23 2003, 01:41 PM
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#66
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
My GMs and I have houseruled the obvious things out, like cutting throats and shooting yourself in the head. That's insta-kill, no Hand of God, no Body roll, just dead. Unless it's a Troll whose throat you're cutting. Good luck sawing through the Dermal.
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Nov 23 2003, 01:43 PM
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#67
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
With a skill of 1, you might even go through a mag of Heavy Pistol ammo without managing to kill yourself. TN 4 - 1 (Static target) + 4 (Called shot) = 7, Take Aim not possible and you need 2 hits. With a shotgun, a laser sight and decent skill it's manageable. |
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Nov 23 2003, 01:46 PM
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#68
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
:D
Ya know, I never thought to use a laser sight in my misguided suicide attempt. :grinbig: Although if you have to take two rounds with a shotgun...ouch. -Siege |
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Nov 23 2003, 01:54 PM
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#69
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Just use a Franchi or other shotgun with Burst Fire. That'll crank it up to D.
Of course you'll still lay there for a bit if you have a decent Willpower and a bit of "luck" on your hands, lingering until Overflow finishes you off. |
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Nov 23 2003, 02:16 PM
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#70
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
Don't forget, you're also doing a called shot with a target standing still (-1 modifier). So with a laser sight or SL, you're at a 2. You're not going to augment your resist rolls with combat pool. I wonder if you could voluntarily forgo your body roll... you could use karma to reroll success though : P. You could kill yourself with two shots with a Manhunter, probably less if you throw in your combat pool. As for those light pistols...
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Nov 23 2003, 04:03 PM
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#71
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Target Group: Members Posts: 14 Joined: 18-August 03 Member No.: 5,518 |
How about a house rule that gives you +1 reach for each initiative pass you have when in melee combat? That would give fast guys a bonus in melee.
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Nov 23 2003, 04:15 PM
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#72
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 203 Joined: 3-April 03 Member No.: 4,370 |
whaaaaaaa?? and how would you explain that house rule away? i've been fighting for 3 seconds so my arms got longer! whee! :wobble: after less than 3 seconds of combat a wired troll could reach 3 meters away and bitch-slap the guy with the pistol? that was just ... silly
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Nov 23 2003, 04:27 PM
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#73
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
You could call it Mobility, I guess. The character with more Initiative Passes is better at strategically moving his body and anticipating his opponent's moves (instead of being faster, they're just able to accomplish more), thereby providing a bonus similar to Reach?
I dunno. Just a thought. |
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Nov 23 2003, 04:50 PM
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#74
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Target Group: Members Posts: 14 Joined: 18-August 03 Member No.: 5,518 |
Not add +1 reach each pass, 1+ for each pass you have that round. Equally fast people would cancel out each others reach, while a fast person could maneuver closer to attack and farther away to dodge. Reach is not a good word perhaps, Mobility sounds better, but having a single name and bonus for it would be much easier. This would also mean that having a big weapon would prevent the fast guy from dodging as easilly.
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Nov 23 2003, 04:52 PM
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#75
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 488 Joined: 4-August 03 From: Amidst the ruins of Silicon Valley. Member No.: 5,242 |
Of course, everyone discounts the ability of the brawler here to just disarm the knife guy. Pretty easy, overall, given the rules in CC. I do think that lowering Stun damage from punches to L might be an interesting idea... but then those fascinatingly cinematic images of downing an opponent with a single punch wouldn't work at all. :(
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