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Moonstone Spider
I'm trying to figure out why anybody would use some of the lower-end shadowrun equipment.

Take knives. Say two people with roughly equal stats and skills go at it, one with a knife and one with bare hands.

The guy with bare hands will do a moderate stun wound.

The guy with a knife will do a light physical wound.

All other things being equal, the guy with the knife is screwed. The fist man only needs 4 successful melee attacks (Assuming he never manages to stage up/down) while the knife guy needs to land 10 to win. Armor works against each equally. While the fist man will only knock his opponent unconcious, 9 times out of 10 on a shadowrun that's good enough, and on the 10th you can take the knife from his unconcious body and cut his throat anyway. And since the fist does damage faster, the knife guy will lose initiative and gain + to TNs faster, making his chances of success even lower than they look. On top of that the fist can't be taken away (well, most of the time), doesn't set off alarms, and won't attract Lonestar's attention. Overall, a knife is a totally useless item.

Even on the boards people joke at how silly light pistols are. Given how much armor even average joe wears, a light pistol is useless. If that's the case, how the heck can you expect to ever use a holdout pistol? 4L damage = 0 damage against anything other than no armor at all, even with only armor clothing or a cheap armor vest a person with body 2 will probably never take damage from any holdout pistol without tons of staging up by a person with pistols skill 12.

Things only get worse when you consider a few other weapons. For instance, cyber fangs and horns. While they at least do strenth +1 (L) rather than the knife's pathetic damage, they have a -1 reach that makes the odds of success nastily low compared to good only reliable Mr. Fist. Of course the fact that you could buy several assault rifles for the price of a cyberfang or horn (not to mention essence cost) only makes things even more absurd.

Worst of all is the adept power missile mastery. Goody, you can toss credsticks and do half strength(L) damage. If the GM is kind enough to let you be near them at a critical time. Armor defends against it normally, it's so unlikely that you could ever do damage with missile mastery that I have never seen an adept take it. While it's theoretically useful when combined with Shuriken, they are basically a knife with a range lower than a holdout pistol.

Perhaps it's just my inexperience but does anybody ever use these items/powers? If so how can they be successful with such gear?
Kagetenshi
Light Pistols are useless. Holdouts are far from. A Needler is a great thing for fancy parties. Obviously they're useless against anyone using armor, but if you're in a situation where you need to carry them, anyone using armor is going to eat you anyway. The problem with Light Pistols is that they aren't more concealable than Heavy Pistols most of the time.

~J

Edit: and the "average Joe" wears at most 1 Impact, 2 if they can afford real leather instead of synthleather. 0 Ballistic.
Crusher Bob
Yep, get yourself some shock gloves, or sap gloves, or something like that. It's quite easy to claim that your shock gloves are a 'self defense item'. Combine with a small can of pepper spray and you are ready for that classy party.
moosegod
Harliner combat gloves give you +1 damage anyways.

Missle mastery is useful because it gives a bonus (that I don't remember) to other thrown weapons.
Kagetenshi
+2 Power.
Missile Mastery works best for an NPC wageslave that the players run into.
"...Why does he have an entire can of letter openers?"

~J
El_Machinae
Knives are good for intimidation. Suppose you're in a fight with someone who's unwilling to kill (hey, it could happen). It takes a LOT longer to heal a knife wound than a fist wound.

This is the main reason why people threaten with knives nowadays - because the threat of long-term injury.
FlakJacket
QUOTE (Moonstone Spider)
The guy with a knife will do a light physical wound.

Which is why the guy throws away the crappy knife he's using and gets something like a Fineblade that does (Strength) M damage instead. He then dikotes the thing to make it do even more damage.

But yeah, the edged weapons damage thing is a little broke. Not like it takes a massive amount of effort to fix though. smile.gif
RedmondLarry
Moonstone Spider, here's my take on the lower-powered equipment:

The books give GMs the opportunity to run opposition that is more skilled or less skilled than the player characters, and either better equipped or worse equipped than the player characters. Without rules for knives and light pistols we wouldn't be able to make gangs! And besides, the characters are sometimes so drek-out-of-luck that there's nothing else to use.

Often my magician has carried a Light Pistol in an external quick-draw holster (cowboy style) when the team goes to the barrens. With such a weapon, no one ever targets me first.

And did I tell you about the time my Samurai faced a dragon with just a Heavy Pistol, and lived because of it?
Eindrachen
The stun damage from a punch is easier to get over than the physical damage of a knife. Also, against someone with no armor, a knife weilded by somoene with significant speed and/or strength can be rather bad on a person's lifespan.

Really, any weapon doing Light damage isn't meant to be used in "Munchkin Kombat"; they are, more or less, to take out the average slot, who shouldn't be sporting amored clothing and a lined coat, with a sustained Armor (6) spell. They were mostly made to cap that leather-clad punk who thinks he's Bruce Lee or some crap.

It's pretty much like the difference between a knife and a sword: if you need an edge for general purpose use, you take a knife; if you need to push sharp things through soft things that will scream and bleed, take a sword. If you are running security at an office or similar setting, you take a light pistol; if you are on guard duty at a corp facility that expects runners any day now, you carry a heavy pistol, SMG, or an assault rifle.

And Missile Mastery is hardly useless. What other power in the world lets you walk completely unarmed into a facility, grab a bunch of random crap, and start calling ranged damage out of the blue? Heck, link it with some Boosted Strength, Increased Reflexes, and Improved Throwing Weapons, and you can be a nasty little monkey...
moosegod
And you can slit someone's throat with a knife, saving that precious 2 nuyen on the bullet.
Tanka
Unless they're a Troll or have some form of Dermals. Or Orthoskin. Or... Scales? eek.gif
Cray74
QUOTE (FlakJacket)
Which is why the guy throws away the crappy knife he's using and gets something like a Fineblade that does (Strength) M damage instead. He then dikotes the thing to make it do even more damage.

I thought you could not stake the fineblade bonus and dikoting.
Kagetenshi
Nothing says that. It's a not-uncommon houserule as the difference between a regular knife and a Fineblade looks suspiciously like a layer of Dikote, but by canon you can stick a layer on and have your own pocket katana minus reach bonus.

~J
TheScamp
Then again, if NPC's and PC's are actually reacting to the item itself rather than its game stats (which don't exist to them), pulling a knife in a fistfight is a major escalation which should give the opponent pause.
Kagetenshi
Indeed. You can't knock someone out with a knife.

~J
Dogsoup
As a paranthesis;
On the topic of light pistols, everything with gunpowder in it should do M damage IMHO. L is the realm of pellet rifles and airguns. I mean, just watch Lock Stock & 2 Smoking Barrels.

"Aaah! Shit! I been shot!" biggrin.gif
Kagetenshi
One success is just barely hitting. A glancing blow, a shot that was almost a miss. By that standard, it's reasonable in my mind to take L damage.
Plus remember that L damage is damage significant to make a routine task (TN 4, 1/2 chance of succeeding on a single die) significantly harder (TN 5, 1/3 chance, odds reduction of 1/6). Light isn't minor.

~J
nezumi
Apparently Dogsoup's never fired a .22 : P

A lot of the weapons are also there to keep players from saying 'what if' and feeling like the rules won't let them do what they want. Weapons also do have a roleplaying purpose. My gangers all have knives because its what gangers have, and I'd like to know how much weapon they do : P My decker (overweight and greasy faced) has cyber fangs, just because he's uber geek and I know that's something I think would be pretty neat. It doesn't ALWAYS have to be about killing people, you know.
mfb
there's a lot of things about SR that could use a facelift, but weapon damage values are one of the worst. forget about armor--it's next to impossible to kill an unarmored person with one or two shots from a light pistol. and trying to kill someone with a knife is like trying to dig a grave with a teaspoon--in both cases, you'd be better off just using your hands. pistols--any pistol--should have a minimum damage level of M. knives as well, to be honest.
Dende
You have to realize even with knifes a LOT of damage can be done. with 1 ambidextrious person using 2 at once with a 6 skill you get 9 die...With a called shot, that isn't bad, odds are good you get a few successes to the neck, and that works well.
Moonstone Spider
Indeed. All you need is an 8-point edge and you can try to roll a 12 while your opponent rolls against 4 with his dice. Given relatively equal skill I'd say you're totally screwed with your two knives against an opponent with 1 fist.

I think the easiest way to tone things down would be to reduce an unarmed melee attack to str(L) stun myself. It's not unreasonable to expect a serious pounding on an opponent before he is knocked unconcious.

QUOTE
A lot of the weapons are also there to keep players from saying 'what if' and feeling like the rules won't let them do what they want. Weapons also do have a roleplaying purpose. My gangers all have knives because its what gangers have, and I'd like to know how much weapon they do : P My decker (overweight and greasy faced) has cyber fangs, just because he's uber geek and I know that's something I think would be pretty neat. It doesn't ALWAYS have to be about killing people, you know.
I would tend to agree with your logic Nezumi. After all Rigger 3 has rules for things like aircraft carriers and battleships that a Shadowrun will probably never actually see and can never possibly use just in case of such an event.

The thing is, having items like this means that anybody who plays themself well in character, for instance by buying cyberfangs because it's in character, is heavily penalized compared to a munchkin who buys only the best gear. The Munchkin can afford an AK-98 and about 20 IPE minigrenades for the price of those cyberfangs, for instance.

And while Missile Mastery does make thrown weapons more powerful, thrown weapons are already so weak it doesn't matter (although, to be fair, I think that's about what a shuriken would do). I tried to make a ninja character a while back to use Shuriken as his main weapon. After dikoting them and giving him the missile mastery skill I could do strength +4(M) damage, which is pretty good for an average weapon. But it cost me so much in terms of power and cash to actually do it my character couldn't compete with only less themed characters who bought SMGs that did superior damage for half the price (and no magic cost), and he died in about ten minutes of playing.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Moonstone Spider @ Nov 22 2003, 12:22 PM)
Indeed.  All you need is an 8-point edge and you can try to roll a 12 while your opponent rolls against 4 with his dice.  Given relatively equal skill I'd say you're totally screwed with your two knives against an opponent with 1 fist.

What are you talking about?

With Ambidexterity 3 (a 6-point edge), you get to add +50% of your base skill dice to your Skill Test in melee combat when weilding two weapons. If you have this edge, two knives, and an Edged Weapons 4 (Knives 6) skill. you're rolling 9 dice with absolutely no other modifiers applied. Against someone using Unarmed Skill 6, you're going to win most of the time, all other factors being identical between combatants.

Even with the Called Shot modifier (which I wouldn't bother with, personally), the TN would only be an 8 vs. your opponent who has a TN of 4. TN penalties are something you always want to avoid in melee combat, though, so making a Called Shot (even if using a lame house rule that lets you bypass armor) is pretty foolish unless you have absolutely no other result.

Sure, it may take a few phases of combat to kill your opponent with a pair of knives, but you're statistically way ahead of him. And with each blow, you're probably going to give him a Light or Moderate wound... which increases his TN on the next phase while yours remains unchanged.

...and as for thrown weapons being weak? Please. Give me a dikoted tomahawk [(STR+1)S damage] any day. What's even better is you can still use them in hand-to-hand combat, too. Paired. Such a sweeeeeeeeet weapon they are. smile.gif
hobgoblin
hmm, start at L, add 2 successes and your at M, add 2 more and your at S, 2 more and your on D. 6 successes, and that in my book isnt hard if your in close range with the right gear (maybe smartlink, maybe something else). sure with a heavy you need 2 less. oh and i think its the heavys that are to easy to hide, not the lights that are to hard...
Zazen
I think mfb's point is worth talking about, though. For average unarmored people, it takes a whole lot of effort to stab someone to death with a knife.
Tanka
I think knife would win over unarmed due to this (Note: this is only if it's going to death and not knocked-out):

Say knife only does L, so it takes six net successes to do D damage. Unarmed strike does M Stun, so it takes 4 to get it to D Stun, and another 8 to get it to D physical. Obviously if you're just looking to knock the guy out, if it's all even, one-on-one fight (even excepting the knife), the guy who's going unarmed has a better chance of winning.

Not to mention that some knives do (Str - *)L, and unarmed does straight (Str)M (or (Str + *)M if you have bone lacing).

Edit: Oh, and Light Pistols are not useless. Some of them look pretty. wink.gif
Ol' Scratch
Note that Damage doesn't matter whatsoever in Melee Combat. You never really get a "free hit" on an opponent; your opponent always gets to make a Counterattack against you when you try to strike him. If all other things are equal save for the amount of dice you're throwing (two knives versus an unarmed opponent), the knife weilder is going to be the only one dishing our damage on average. Even if the unarmed opponent has so many mods, implants, or power that his Damage Code is 100D Physical, it doesn't matter. It's all about the dice (and target numbers).

Well, there are times where a Counterattack isn't allowed, but we're talking a straight-on dual for these purposes.
Corporate Raider
Most of my characters carry a knife for non-combat reasons: to cut restraints, jam a door open or shut, or get a cheap trauma patch. biggrin.gif
Tanka
Mmm... Survival Knife... Wasn't there a discussion on how to slowly generate lots of money from that? (Yes, I remember how, does anybody else?)
nezumi
I remember : ) But I'm the last guy to ask what the whole deal was in the first place.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (tanka @ Nov 22 2003, 01:08 PM)
Mmm...  Survival Knife...  Wasn't there a discussion on how to slowly generate lots of money from that?  (Yes, I remember how, does anybody else?)

No, because you lose money unless playing with a GM who doesn't have a wit's amount of sense in him.

The Survival Knife costs 450 nuyen, a Trauma Patch costs 500 nuyen. Even through legal means, you buy the knife at 450, sell the Patch for 250, and sell the now patch-less knife (1/5th of its accessories, so lets only lower its value by 20%; I'd lower it by half at the very least) for 180 nuyen. So in other words you spent 450 and earned 430. You just lost 20 nuyen in the deal.

If the GM has anyone willing to buy enough to even bother making it worth it's while (at most you make 25 nuyen per deal) who DOESN'T check to make sure the trauma patches are there... well... <shrugs>
Zazen
Enter the Connected edge, allowing him to sell the trauma patches at normal street price.

Now we're cookin' with gas!
Wish
The part I love about the SR combat system is just how inept the average person is, in game terms. If you've got two guys standing feet from each other, not moving, they're going to take forever to kill each other, even with heavy pistols. Three dice (average quickness) at TN 8 (default modifier), they're going to miss most of the time. Not even dodging, or using cover, just standing there and trading shots. When they do hit, it'll be a moderate wound, so you have to shoot the other guy 4 times to drop him. Unfortunately, they also have combat pool, and with such a low intitiative (only 1 pass per round) and such a low incidence of successful attack, they will be able to dodge each other. 4 dice at TN 4 to dodge a single attack success is pretty good odds. It's entirely possible that these guys could run through 5 or 10 clips each, just blazing away at point blank range, without hurting each other at all.
Cain
QUOTE (Wish)
The part I love about the SR combat system is just how inept the average person is, in game terms. If you've got two guys standing feet from each other, not moving, they're going to take forever to kill each other, even with heavy pistols. Three dice (average quickness) at TN 8 (default modifier), they're going to miss most of the time. Not even dodging, or using cover, just standing there and trading shots. When they do hit, it'll be a moderate wound, so you have to shoot the other guy 4 times to drop him. Unfortunately, they also have combat pool, and with such a low intitiative (only 1 pass per round) and such a low incidence of successful attack, they will be able to dodge each other. 4 dice at TN 4 to dodge a single attack success is pretty good odds. It's entirely possible that these guys could run through 5 or 10 clips each, just blazing away at point blank range, without hurting each other at all.

That's how people really shoot, though. At least, in a combat situation.

A gun instructor suggested people try this test. First, as a gun range, fire a clip at a target at short range, and see how you do. Then, jog in place for a minute, then fire another clip. You'll be surprised at the difference-- the average person will shoot "like a spastic grandmother", according to the instructor.

In a real situation, you'll be under a whole lot more stress than what you get from jogging in place. Two untrained people facing off are more likely to hit each other by accident than by design.
BitBasher
There have been many cases where over short distances lots of rounds are spent without hitting a target. I can think of 2 cases offhane here where around 40 were spent at less than 10 yards without hitting, and 129 rounds spent at 20 or so yards hitting the person once in the leg.
Tanka
These untrained individuals also don't have the sense to Take Aim for a few rounds while their opponent is busy emptying his clip at the air and reloading every so often. Eventually, they align so well that the shot goes straight for the head and takes them down in no time.

This is, of course, assuming the other guy doesn't get really lucky.
Luke Hardison
Ah, but untrained characters can't take aim. The number of take aim actions allowed is half the skill being used, which, when defaulting, is 0. Poor untrained, unaiming people.

However, the skill system makes sense. A person with minimal training (Pistols 1) shooting at a close target with no other adverse conditions (TN 4) will hit the target 50% of the time, miss 33% of the time, and 12% of the time the gun will explode in his hands. Wait ...... that last part is a little on the unrealistic side. So goes the rule of one when rolling one die.
Tanka
And then the use of their singular karma pool to avoid that "Oops!"

Then they sleep and try again the next day.
TheScamp
QUOTE
For average unarmored people, it takes a whole lot of effort to stab someone to death with a knife.

It kind of does in real life, too.
Cain
QUOTE
Wait ...... that last part is a little on the unrealistic side.

The Rule of One doesn't mean the gun always explodes; I believe it only occurs if you're using Ex or Ex-Ex ammo. It could just jam, misfire, get dropped, get pointed in entirely the wrong direction, go off too close to your ear... the list goes on and on.
Zazen
QUOTE (TheScamp)
QUOTE
For average unarmored people, it takes a whole lot of effort to stab someone to death with a knife.

It kind of does in real life, too.

It should be easier than beating someone to death with your fists, though.
Mongoose
QUOTE (mfb)
there's a lot of things about SR that could use a facelift, but weapon damage values are one of the worst. forget about armor--it's next to impossible to kill an unarmored person with one or two shots from a light pistol. and trying to kill someone with a knife is like trying to dig a grave with a teaspoon--in both cases, you'd be better off just using your hands. pistols--any pistol--should have a minimum damage level of M. knives as well, to be honest.

[QUOTE]it's next to impossible to kill an unarmored person with one or two shots from a light pistol. and trying to kill someone with a knife is like trying to dig a grave with a teaspoon-[CODE]

Most people shot once or twice with low caliber weapons do live, and most knofe fatalaities involve many, many stab wounds. How many holes were in Caesrs corpse> If killing somebody with a knife was easy, it only would have taken 2 guys, not a half dozen...
Dogsoup
Wish:
You forgot that -1TN for "target not moving". A TN of 7 equals 6, so without aim you got, dunno, 50% of scoring a hit using three dice. wavey.gif
Siege
QUOTE (Mongoose)
QUOTE (mfb @ Nov 22 2003, 05:41 PM)
there's a lot of things about SR that could use a facelift, but weapon damage values are one of the worst. forget about armor--it's next to impossible to kill an unarmored person with one or two shots from a light pistol. and trying to kill someone with a knife is like trying to dig a grave with a teaspoon--in both cases, you'd be better off just using your hands. pistols--any pistol--should have a minimum damage level of M. knives as well, to be honest.

[QUOTE]it's next to impossible to kill an unarmored person with one or two shots from a light pistol. and trying to kill someone with a knife is like trying to dig a grave with a teaspoon-[CODE]

Most people shot once or twice with low caliber weapons do live, and most knofe fatalaities involve many, many stab wounds. How many holes were in Caesrs corpse> If killing somebody with a knife was easy, it only would have taken 2 guys, not a half dozen...

Ceaser's murder wasn't the crime of a dispassionate professional, but rather a dramatic and emotional affair.

A crime of passion -- of sorts. I submit the excess stabs were more a matter of enthusiasm than any real necessity.

There was also a symbolic aspect to it as well -- each conspirator struck a blow to show their committment to the affair rather than strictly lip service.

-Siege
Tanka
Not the point, Seige. Quit being facetious. nyahnyah.gif
Siege
QUOTE (tanka)
Not the point, Seige. Quit being facetious. nyahnyah.gif

Not the point? You cut me to the quick!

Walking the razor's edge here, I think.

-Siege
TheScamp
QUOTE
It should be easier than beating someone to death with your fists, though.

It is. You only have to fill up one condition monitor instead of two.
Zazen
But not really. I'd need 7 hits with my fists at base damage, but 10 with the knife.
Tziluthi
Plus once the knife guy is out cold, you can just cut his throat. Simple.
Anymage
My 2 nuyen.gif

First, I really don't mind if gear that does nonlethal damage is "superior" to equivalent lethal gear. Given your average gamer's mindset, they'll always chose to do the "most lethal" form of damage possible, and encouraging nonlethal combat means less lethal combat. This is a good thing from both the players perspective and the GM's, as it means that a run of bad luck or tactical mistake is less likely to totally mess things up.

Second, while a trained kinfe fighter IRL can probably beat an unarmed fighter of equal skill, that relies on things like blood loss and proper pressure points that don't apply in Shadowrun. I'd wager that a kamikaze unarmed fighter who didn't mind bleeding out afterwards could probably knock out the knife fighter, since most "lethal" damage gets far more mileage out of blood loss and shock than it does from structural damage. Trained fighters (read:shadowrunners and most people they get into serious fights with) will probably be less prone to pain and shock, and function well in the moment after taking a stab or a bullet.

(That said, one of the major deterrant factors of lethal damage in-game is how long it sticks around. If you rack up anything past a light wound, you're going to be out of comission for a while healing it up. The other drawbacks to lethal damage, blood loss and infection, are abstracted out for ease of play and hopefully dealt with via 2060's era medical technology.)

And finally, as others have said, it's fine if there's some sub-par gear out there. Game balance isn't hurt by low-end blips, and cash-strapped or nonprofessional foes should have poor equipment to reflect that. Sure, some rebalancing should be done (such as the survival knife<>trauma patch issue and the fetish some writers have had for heavy pistols), but if all gear were balanced, you'd have a hard time convincing me how those troll gangers got anything as good as cougar fineblades and ruger thunderbolts.
Moonstone Spider
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Nov 22 2003, 01:36 PM)
QUOTE (Moonstone Spider @ Nov 22 2003, 12:22 PM)
Indeed.  All you need is an 8-point edge and you can try to roll a 12 while your opponent rolls against 4 with his dice.  Given relatively equal skill I'd say you're totally screwed with your two knives against an opponent with 1 fist.

What are you talking about?

With Ambidexterity 3 (a 6-point edge), you get to add +50% of your base skill dice to your Skill Test in melee combat when weilding two weapons. If you have this edge, two knives, and an Edged Weapons 4 (Knives 6) skill. you're rolling 9 dice with absolutely no other modifiers applied. Against someone using Unarmed Skill 6, you're going to win most of the time, all other factors being identical between combatants.

Even with the Called Shot modifier (which I wouldn't bother with, personally), the TN would only be an 8 vs. your opponent who has a TN of 4. TN penalties are something you always want to avoid in melee combat, though, so making a Called Shot (even if using a lame house rule that lets you bypass armor) is pretty foolish unless you have absolutely no other result.

Sure, it may take a few phases of combat to kill your opponent with a pair of knives, but you're statistically way ahead of him. And with each blow, you're probably going to give him a Light or Moderate wound... which increases his TN on the next phase while yours remains unchanged.

...and as for thrown weapons being weak? Please. Give me a dikoted tomahawk [(STR+1)S damage] any day. What's even better is you can still use them in hand-to-hand combat, too. Paired. Such a sweeeeeeeeet weapon they are. smile.gif

Hmm, I thought you meant to use a called shot but oh well.

You do realize that with your six point edge you still get a +1 penalty when using two weapons? You have to buy an 8 point edge to get none. And you're comparing a player with a 6 point edge to a player with none, unarmed fighters can take advantage of ambidexterity too you know. But without it, consider:

With just a 4 point edge (Aptitude) I can get -1 on unarmed combat. That means the target number for the fist user is 3 while your target number with your advanced 6 point edge you are rolling for a 5. Thus on your 9 die you can expect a success roughly 1/3 of the time. With my six I can expect success 1/2 the time. Surprise surprise, we both wind up with exactly the same success rate, statistically identical. Except that I only used 2/3 as many points worth of edge. And my damage will reach deadly with just 4 successes while yours takes 6. Oh, and I didn't have to pay any nuyen for the knives.
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