No, that's with firearms. With melee weapons, Ambidexterity 3 is all you need; you don't get a +2/+2 penalty when using two melee weapons, unlike firearms. Technically you don't even need to get Ambidexterity 3. Off-Hand Edged Weapons 4 (Knives 6) (5 Skill Points) does the same thing for these purposes.
As for the Aptitude, you also realize that the rules intend/suggest that Aptitude not be taken for combat skills. But now you're just going into "what ifs." I did specifically state "if all other things are equal." We could go on and on debating "what ifs," introducing more and more modifiers, maneuvers, and techniques until the cows come home.
Full Version: Useless weapons?
Cows?
The whole thing is a matter of timing, and skill.
I see a knife as a weapon of convienence; most armed services spend more time teaching you how to shoot small arms in various situations than they do in how to use a knife with the same proficiency. Even in ancient/medieval times, you trained with larger weapons as the primary weapon; knives were just something you took for a tool for various jobs (including slitting throats, or stabbing someone unconscious under their armor).
There is also another consideration. If the person using a knife is faster (i.e., rolls a higher Initiative) than the other guy using bare fists, it's possible that the knife-guy can inflict more stab wounds faster than the other guy. Since he's damaging the other guy first, he also inflicts TN penalties, which make it easier to not be hit, and so forth and so on.
Honestly, quick guys with a knife CAN do much better; they can send a flurry of slashes and stabs that just slice some poor sucker up. If my opponent was slower than me, regardless of other considerations, yeah, I'd take a knife instead of going barefisted, assuming I intended to do lethal harm.
I see a knife as a weapon of convienence; most armed services spend more time teaching you how to shoot small arms in various situations than they do in how to use a knife with the same proficiency. Even in ancient/medieval times, you trained with larger weapons as the primary weapon; knives were just something you took for a tool for various jobs (including slitting throats, or stabbing someone unconscious under their armor).
There is also another consideration. If the person using a knife is faster (i.e., rolls a higher Initiative) than the other guy using bare fists, it's possible that the knife-guy can inflict more stab wounds faster than the other guy. Since he's damaging the other guy first, he also inflicts TN penalties, which make it easier to not be hit, and so forth and so on.
Honestly, quick guys with a knife CAN do much better; they can send a flurry of slashes and stabs that just slice some poor sucker up. If my opponent was slower than me, regardless of other considerations, yeah, I'd take a knife instead of going barefisted, assuming I intended to do lethal harm.
Err, Initiative doesn't really matter all that much in melee combat (sadly). No matter how high your Initiative is, no matter how quickly and efficiently you can move in a stressful situation, your opponent *always* gets as many counterattacks against you as you get attacks against him.
Wait... I'm still confused about the cow thing here... 
They have medication for that.
Yay! 
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| No, that's with firearms. With melee weapons, Ambidexterity 3 is all you need; you don't get a +2/+2 penalty when using two melee weapons, unlike firearms. Technically you don't even need to get Ambidexterity 3. Off-Hand Edged Weapons 4 (Knives 6) (5 Skill Points) does the same thing for these purposes. As for the Aptitude, you also realize that the rules intend/suggest that Aptitude not be taken for combat skills. But now you're just going into "what ifs." I did specifically state "if all other things are equal." We could go on and on debating "what ifs," introducing more and more modifiers, maneuvers, and techniques until the cows come home. |
Yeah, we could go into what ifs and play with edges forever. I would remind you of who started pulling out edges to bolster his position in the first place however. Your "If all other things are equal" notion is a bit absurd, you're saying if everything is equal except that your character has two weapons and an edge worth six points, then a knife can actually compete with a fist. That's like saying your team can win a football game if all the opposing players have the kneecaps broken first.
If you give yourself an entire extra skill and specialization you can compete with a man with his bare hands, although again your damage code is still inferior. You keep having to pull out advanced optional rules and you combine them with a relatively huge bonus of 21 karma worth of skills just to match a guy with his bare hands and base skills. With that much extra karma the fist character could have his unarmed combat skill at 2 or 3 additional levels, again cancelling out the advantage you've given yourself. Doesn't it seem to you that if you need an extra advantage of over 20 Karma in order to merely match your opponent, your weapon is clearly inferior?
There is no "clearly inferior" weapon, here. It's all dependant on who can get more successes to take the other guy down. A knife might start at L, but you can dikote to make it M. You can't dikote your fist. 
OK, OK, cyberarms don't count.
OK, OK, cyberarms don't count.
Yes, please do remind me who pulled out the edges first. I'll give you a hint, it wasn't me (it was Dende and yourself). Here's a quick refresher's course...
Moonstone Spider:
Moonstone Spider:
| QUOTE |
| Indeed. All you need is an 8-point edge and you can try to roll a 12 while your opponent rolls against 4 with his dice. Given relatively equal skill I'd say you're totally screwed with your two knives against an opponent with 1 fist. |
First, you were wrong on the cost of the edge as well as the target number, both of which I simply proceeded to correct. You certainly didn't seem concerned about the Fisticuff Fellow having an Aptitude or anything else there, so why now beyond the fact that your attempt to disprove Dende's claim has fallen apart?
Not trying to be rude or anything (honestly). My point is simple. If some the Knifely Knave with Off-Hand Edged (Knives) 4(6) or Edged (Knives) 6/Ambidexterity 3 takes on the Fisticuff Fellow who only has Brawling 6, the odds are all in the Knave's corner. Assume the Knave is a runner and the Fellow is a ganger or the like if it makes you feel better about the disparity in Priorities/Build Points.
Cows and medication? Wow. Sounds like a weekend to me...
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Nov 22 2003, 10:28 PM) | ||
| Yes, please do remind me who pulled out the edges first. I'll give you a hint, it wasn't me (it was Dende and yourself). Here's a quick refresher's course... Moonstone Spider:
First, you were wrong on the cost of the edge as well as the target number, both of which I simply proceeded to correct. You certainly didn't seem concerned about the Fisticuff Fellow having an Aptitude or anything else there, so why now beyond the fact that your attempt to disprove Dende's claim has fallen apart? Not trying to be rude or anything (honestly). My point is simple. If some the Knifely Knave with Off-Hand Edged (Knives) 4(6) or Edged (Knives) 6/Ambidexterity 3 takes on the Fisticuff Fellow who only has Brawling 6, the odds are all in the Knave's corner. Assume the Knave is a runner and the Fellow is a ganger or the like if it makes you feel better about the disparity in Priorities/Build Points. |
I also don't have any desire to cause hurt feelings and I apologize for confusing your post with Dende's.
And I agree with your point, given that many advantages a knife fighter will beat an unarmed man.
But my point is, you're knifely knave can only beat the ordinary fisticuff fighter by drawing on advanced rules and then it only works if he's given either a very expensive edge or else has a huge bonus of karma handed to him to buy extra skills. In any position in which the character's are assumed to have equal skills, as opposed to the knife fighter being given almost twice as many or an edge, the knife fighter loses.
If we compare a basic knife fighter with the standard knife (which is essentially the Streetline Special of edged weapons) to someone equally skilled in fisticuffs, the fist fighter will most likely win. Both have the same chance of success, and the short-term wound penalties are the same for stun and physical damage. Therefore, the fist fighter will win the battle of attrition with a higher base damage code.
However, when you are building a runner, the ambidexterity and off-hand skill options provide a devastating advantage. Unarmed combat already assumes that you are using both hands. With 50% more dice, the edged weapons specialist wins hands down - it all comes down to dice. The only way a fist fighter can combat this is to get two shock gloves, so that he or she can take advantage of the same two-weapon rules. But even though you use your unarmed combat skill for shock gloves, I wouldn't consider someone using them to really be "unarmed".
However, when you are building a runner, the ambidexterity and off-hand skill options provide a devastating advantage. Unarmed combat already assumes that you are using both hands. With 50% more dice, the edged weapons specialist wins hands down - it all comes down to dice. The only way a fist fighter can combat this is to get two shock gloves, so that he or she can take advantage of the same two-weapon rules. But even though you use your unarmed combat skill for shock gloves, I wouldn't consider someone using them to really be "unarmed".
Especially considering how broken Shock Gloves are. Few other weapons (such as Capsule Rounds) do "double damage" with each attack.
It's not that the weapons are useless per se, but the rule system doesn't cover them particularly well.
Example: I cut a target's throat. I inflict (Str)L damage. I therefore have to saw through the target's neck repeatedly before the target dies.
Example 2: I put a Colt Manhunter to my head and pull the trigger. I take a 9M. I say "Ouch!" and pull the trigger again.
Suicide must be a bitch if you only have a skill of 1 or 2.
-Siege
Example: I cut a target's throat. I inflict (Str)L damage. I therefore have to saw through the target's neck repeatedly before the target dies.
Example 2: I put a Colt Manhunter to my head and pull the trigger. I take a 9M. I say "Ouch!" and pull the trigger again.
Suicide must be a bitch if you only have a skill of 1 or 2.
-Siege
My GMs and I have houseruled the obvious things out, like cutting throats and shooting yourself in the head. That's insta-kill, no Hand of God, no Body roll, just dead. Unless it's a Troll whose throat you're cutting. Good luck sawing through the Dermal.
| QUOTE |
| Example 2: I put a Colt Manhunter to my head and pull the trigger. I take a 9M. I say "Ouch!" and pull the trigger again. |
With a skill of 1, you might even go through a mag of Heavy Pistol ammo without managing to kill yourself. TN 4 - 1 (Static target) + 4 (Called shot) = 7, Take Aim not possible and you need 2 hits.
With a shotgun, a laser sight and decent skill it's manageable.
Ya know, I never thought to use a laser sight in my misguided suicide attempt.
Although if you have to take two rounds with a shotgun...ouch.
-Siege
Just use a Franchi or other shotgun with Burst Fire. That'll crank it up to D.
Of course you'll still lay there for a bit if you have a decent Willpower and a bit of "luck" on your hands, lingering until Overflow finishes you off.
Of course you'll still lay there for a bit if you have a decent Willpower and a bit of "luck" on your hands, lingering until Overflow finishes you off.
Don't forget, you're also doing a called shot with a target standing still (-1 modifier). So with a laser sight or SL, you're at a 2. You're not going to augment your resist rolls with combat pool. I wonder if you could voluntarily forgo your body roll... you could use karma to reroll success though : P. You could kill yourself with two shots with a Manhunter, probably less if you throw in your combat pool. As for those light pistols...
How about a house rule that gives you +1 reach for each initiative pass you have when in melee combat? That would give fast guys a bonus in melee.
whaaaaaaa?? and how would you explain that house rule away? i've been fighting for 3 seconds so my arms got longer! whee! after less than 3 seconds of combat a wired troll could reach 3 meters away and bitch-slap the guy with the pistol? that was just ... silly
after less than 3 seconds of combat a wired troll could reach 3 meters away and bitch-slap the guy with the pistol? that was just ... silly
You could call it Mobility, I guess. The character with more Initiative Passes is better at strategically moving his body and anticipating his opponent's moves (instead of being faster, they're just able to accomplish more), thereby providing a bonus similar to Reach?
I dunno. Just a thought.
I dunno. Just a thought.
Not add +1 reach each pass, 1+ for each pass you have that round. Equally fast people would cancel out each others reach, while a fast person could maneuver closer to attack and farther away to dodge. Reach is not a good word perhaps, Mobility sounds better, but having a single name and bonus for it would be much easier. This would also mean that having a big weapon would prevent the fast guy from dodging as easilly.
Of course, everyone discounts the ability of the brawler here to just disarm the knife guy. Pretty easy, overall, given the rules in CC. I do think that lowering Stun damage from punches to L might be an interesting idea... but then those fascinatingly cinematic images of downing an opponent with a single punch wouldn't work at all. 
heh, that can still be done. only takes 2 more succeses then before 
Yet another reason why I don't like the mechanical balance fix of the 3rd edition initiative system.
A faster, higher initiative person could (theoretically) wear out someone's combat pool with repeated attacks.
Just a rant on my part.
-Siege
A faster, higher initiative person could (theoretically) wear out someone's combat pool with repeated attacks.
Just a rant on my part.
-Siege
think of it like running out of tricks and being guided into a corner 
basicly the same deal with the fight in matrix down in the subway, both are burning combat pool to try and outmove the other.
basicly the same deal with the fight in matrix down in the subway, both are burning combat pool to try and outmove the other.
I don't like the fact that the mace in the cannon companion has a higher availiability than the mono sword... 
Have you ever tried to find a mace in the real world? How about a sword?
Sure, it's mono, but nobody likes maces. They're big and clunky. Swords are cool. Ask all the movies.
Sure, it's mono, but nobody likes maces. They're big and clunky. Swords are cool. Ask all the movies.
If you want to get technical...
| QUOTE (MitS @ p134) |
| Assume a character can inflict any desired level of Physical damage on himself. |
*stab* Hate. *stab* That. *stab* Movie! *stab*
Oh, and, by all terms and technicalities, that really has no subclass, so I just call it a "ball and chain," which is almost its own subclass, but not really.
Oh, and, by all terms and technicalities, that really has no subclass, so I just call it a "ball and chain," which is almost its own subclass, but not really.
| QUOTE (TinkerGnome) | ||
If you want to get technical...
|
Great, now...if I put the same gun to the temple of a disliked character's head and squeezed the trigger how many 9M times will I have to inflict before his head explodes like a ripe watermelon?
-Siege
Slightly off topic, but how in the hell would you handle an accidently shooting?
Can Little Elfy play with Daddy Elfy's Predator all day without worrying about shooting himself? If he does shoot himself does the GM default to Little Elfy's quickness and roll his own stats against him? If Little Elfy gets a success does he take 9M damage?
Can Little Elfy play with Daddy Elfy's Predator all day without worrying about shooting himself? If he does shoot himself does the GM default to Little Elfy's quickness and roll his own stats against him? If Little Elfy gets a success does he take 9M damage?
Could our brawler go full defense-Zoning, claim super postion if he takes no damage (the manouver was successful) Then lamp the knave from a blindside?
| QUOTE (tanka) |
| Oh, and, by all terms and technicalities, that really has no subclass, so I just call it a "ball and chain," which is almost its own subclass, but not really. |
In an interview with Tarentino that I read, he called it the "Go-Go Ball"
| QUOTE (Dr Komuso) |
| Slightly off topic, but how in the hell would you handle an accidently shooting? Can Little Elfy play with Daddy Elfy's Predator all day without worrying about shooting himself? If he does shoot himself does the GM default to Little Elfy's quickness and roll his own stats against him? If Little Elfy gets a success does he take 9M damage? |
Littly Elfy defaults to quickness.
Little Elfy rolls a 1.
At that point it's clearly 9M damage.
Think she's wearing armor?
Seriously though... I think you're expecting the system to simulate too much.
Indeed. Y'know, that person called the GM is there for a reason...
On a side note, we have a lot of doctors about the place.
~J
On a side note, we have a lot of doctors about the place.
~J
| QUOTE (Dr Komuso) |
| Slightly off topic, but how in the hell would you handle an accidently shooting? Can Little Elfy play with Daddy Elfy's Predator all day without worrying about shooting himself? If he does shoot himself does the GM default to Little Elfy's quickness and roll his own stats against him? If Little Elfy gets a success does he take 9M damage? |
This is a place where a system of rolling for which bodypart got hit (a la Raygun's rules) would be very useful.
I've also considered rolling an extra 2 dice on either side of the equation purely for damage staging up and down (not applicable for determining whether you hit or not) simply to add a degree of balanced randomness to the equation, allowing a potentially wider range of results without statistically overshadowing skill. Not sure how it would work in practice, though. Just musing, mostly.
like someone above hinted about, if its not coverd by the rules let the GM handle it (with a bit of logic and whats good for the current game).
to littile rules may be a problem but to many rules is alls oa problem as then you risk geting contradictions. and there is allways the rules lawyer...
basicly if a person put a gun to someones head then the person would be either dead or have some insane reflexes. no need to check damage at all.
if we had the kind of ingame reality that this thread is allmost begging for then we would be calculating physics for every bullet fired...
to littile rules may be a problem but to many rules is alls oa problem as then you risk geting contradictions. and there is allways the rules lawyer...
basicly if a person put a gun to someones head then the person would be either dead or have some insane reflexes. no need to check damage at all.
if we had the kind of ingame reality that this thread is allmost begging for then we would be calculating physics for every bullet fired...
Believe it or not, I am firmly in the "logical house rule" camp.
I'm just pointing out the insanity of people who would justify standing at ground zero and say, "Well, I'm not dead...only at Deadly."
-Siege
I'm just pointing out the insanity of people who would justify standing at ground zero and say, "Well, I'm not dead...only at Deadly."
-Siege
| QUOTE (Moonstone Spider) |
| I'm trying to figure out why anybody would use some of the lower-end shadowrun equipment. Take knives. Say two people with roughly equal stats and skills go at it, one with a knife and one with bare hands. The guy with bare hands will do a moderate stun wound. The guy with a knife will do a light physical wound. All other things being equal, the guy with the knife is screwed. The fist man only needs 4 successful melee attacks (Assuming he never manages to stage up/down) while the knife guy needs to land 10 to win. Armor works against each equally. While the fist man will only knock his opponent unconcious, 9 times out of 10 on a shadowrun that's good enough, and on the 10th you can take the knife from his unconcious body and cut his throat anyway. And since the fist does damage faster, the knife guy will lose initiative and gain + to TNs faster, making his chances of success even lower than they look. On top of that the fist can't be taken away (well, most of the time), doesn't set off alarms, and won't attract Lonestar's attention. Overall, a knife is a totally useless item. Even on the boards people joke at how silly light pistols are. Given how much armor even average joe wears, a light pistol is useless. If that's the case, how the heck can you expect to ever use a holdout pistol? 4L damage = 0 damage against anything other than no armor at all, even with only armor clothing or a cheap armor vest a person with body 2 will probably never take damage from any holdout pistol without tons of staging up by a person with pistols skill 12. Things only get worse when you consider a few other weapons. For instance, cyber fangs and horns. While they at least do strenth +1 (L) rather than the knife's pathetic damage, they have a -1 reach that makes the odds of success nastily low compared to good only reliable Mr. Fist. Of course the fact that you could buy several assault rifles for the price of a cyberfang or horn (not to mention essence cost) only makes things even more absurd. Worst of all is the adept power missile mastery. Goody, you can toss credsticks and do half strength(L) damage. If the GM is kind enough to let you be near them at a critical time. Armor defends against it normally, it's so unlikely that you could ever do damage with missile mastery that I have never seen an adept take it. While it's theoretically useful when combined with Shuriken, they are basically a knife with a range lower than a holdout pistol. Perhaps it's just my inexperience but does anybody ever use these items/powers? If so how can they be successful with such gear? |
| QUOTE |
Take knives. Say two people with roughly equal stats and skills go at it, one with a knife and one with bare hands. The guy with bare hands will do a moderate stun wound. The guy with a knife will do a light physical wound. All other things being equal, the guy with the knife is screwed. The fist man only needs 4 successful melee attacks (Assuming he never manages to stage up/down) while the knife guy needs to land 10 to win. Armor works against each equally. While the fist man will only knock his opponent unconcious, 9 times out of 10 on a shadowrun that's good enough, and on the 10th you can take the knife from his unconcious body and cut his throat anyway. And since the fist does damage faster, the knife guy will lose initiative and gain + to TNs faster, making his chances of success even lower than they look. On top of that the fist can't be taken away (well, most of the time), doesn't set off alarms, and won't attract Lonestar's attention. Overall, a knife is a totally useless item. |
You're overlooking that there are a lot of different knives, including ones that deal (STR)M or (STR+1)M. However, even the basic knife deals (STR+2)L. The law of the land as far as TN#s goes is that the most powerful single force in SR is the capacity to alter TN#. You can halve an opponent's chance to resist the damage, with that additional +2 TN#.
| QUOTE |
Even on the boards people joke at how silly light pistols are. Given how much armor even average joe wears, a light pistol is useless. If that's the case, how the heck can you expect to ever use a holdout pistol? 4L damage = 0 damage against anything other than no armor at all, even with only armor clothing or a cheap armor vest a person with body 2 will probably never take damage from any holdout pistol without tons of staging up by a person with pistols skill 12. |
Holdouts have their uses. Mostly quickdrawn called shots to unarmored portions, with Hollowpoints or Glaser rounds. A 4L holdout with the right ammo, and a called shot to the head, would deal 7M base damage, 7S if you apply both staging and armor defeating values. Smartlink-2 modification is probably a good idea, but so long as you get a success or two, and it's in a Surprise round(no combat pool, no dodge) you'll do some damage, maybe even kill. Mind you, this is for firearm-proficient characters. If your skill's below 5, I wouldn't recommend it.
| QUOTE |
Things only get worse when you consider a few other weapons. For instance, cyber fangs and horns. While they at least do strenth +1 (L) rather than the knife's pathetic damage, they have a -1 reach that makes the odds of success nastily low compared to good only reliable Mr. Fist. Of course the fact that you could buy several assault rifles for the price of a cyberfang or horn (not to mention essence cost) only makes things even more absurd. |
Yeah. It's a style thing above all else. Street samurai wannabee predators/vamps probably eat it up. Also has some of that same surprise factor stuff. I tend to rule such unorthodox attacks might call for a Surprise test before combat.
| QUOTE |
Worst of all is the adept power missile mastery. Goody, you can toss credsticks and do half strength(L) damage. If the GM is kind enough to let you be near them at a critical time. Armor defends against it normally, it's so unlikely that you could ever do damage with missile mastery that I have never seen an adept take it. While it's theoretically useful when combined with Shuriken, they are basically a knife with a range lower than a holdout pistol. |
Missile Mastery's ability to use random objects to deal damage is almost useless, but the fact that it grants +2 to the power of all actual thrown weapon attacks makes it essential for characters who rely on thrown knives, shuriken, etc...
Regarding children playing with guns...
A lot of kids (and adults) playing with guns really do give themselves about a Moderate wound -- they shoot themselves in the foot or hand. I know a few cases of this among my friends. The only case I know of where a kid was playing with daddy's gun and inflicted a fatal wound on himself was with a shotgun. The SR rules actually reflect this -- 10S base damage, staged up with shot to 10D against an unarmed target.
Based on this admittedly casual experience, I bet there are a lot less cases of accidental self-inflicted death by .38 or 9 mm than 12-gauge.
--K
Edit for grammar: geez, is English my native tongue after all?
Edit again: Here's a fun firearms "fact page". Interesting data -- for every firearms death, it is estimated that there are 5 to 7 firearms injuries. That means that when a firearm hits someone, it only has a 12% to 16% chance of killing them on average. Since almost two-thirds of firearms deaths are suicides, and presumably suicide-attempt death-rates are higher than homicide-attempt death-rates, it means that the death rates for homicide-attempts and firearms-accidents are even lower. It is indeed rare to die of an accidental firearm discharge, even if it hits you.
A lot of kids (and adults) playing with guns really do give themselves about a Moderate wound -- they shoot themselves in the foot or hand. I know a few cases of this among my friends. The only case I know of where a kid was playing with daddy's gun and inflicted a fatal wound on himself was with a shotgun. The SR rules actually reflect this -- 10S base damage, staged up with shot to 10D against an unarmed target.
Based on this admittedly casual experience, I bet there are a lot less cases of accidental self-inflicted death by .38 or 9 mm than 12-gauge.
--K
Edit for grammar: geez, is English my native tongue after all?
Edit again: Here's a fun firearms "fact page". Interesting data -- for every firearms death, it is estimated that there are 5 to 7 firearms injuries. That means that when a firearm hits someone, it only has a 12% to 16% chance of killing them on average. Since almost two-thirds of firearms deaths are suicides, and presumably suicide-attempt death-rates are higher than homicide-attempt death-rates, it means that the death rates for homicide-attempts and firearms-accidents are even lower. It is indeed rare to die of an accidental firearm discharge, even if it hits you.
Troll adepts are very, very unpleasant with Missile Mastery. 8L damage ain't nothing to laugh at, and that's before we start getting into actual missile weapons.
~J
~J
Add dikote, of course!
9M from a bent paper clip is awfully fun stuff.
9M from a bent paper clip is awfully fun stuff.
Dikoted paperclips... gods that's a scary idea.
Dikoting your credstick, though, isn't the most massively off-the-wall idea. Screwy, yes, but cash-in-your-mattress screwy, not cash-hidden-in-living-bunnies screwy.
~J
Dikoting your credstick, though, isn't the most massively off-the-wall idea. Screwy, yes, but cash-in-your-mattress screwy, not cash-hidden-in-living-bunnies screwy.
~J
Dikoting is really only useful on edged weapons. It doesn't increase the Damage Level for any other types of weapons, and I don't think a bent paper-clip would count as an edged weapon.
And how do you propose dikoting your credit card? The heat would destroy it before the dikoe even had a chance to touch it.
And how do you propose dikoting your credit card? The heat would destroy it before the dikoe even had a chance to touch it.
Is there a canon statement that credsticks must be plastic? I would assume it would be a trivial matter to get a metal-cased credstick, and if you've got the money to throw away on dikote, you can certainly get it coated before they stick the electronics in.
As for a bent paperclip, his use of it as an edged weapon is debateable. Still 9L if non-edged.
~J
As for a bent paperclip, his use of it as an edged weapon is debateable. Still 9L if non-edged.
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Indeed. Y'know, that person called the GM is there for a reason... On a side note, we have a lot of doctors about the place. ~J |
Duh.
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