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> Useless weapons?, A look at some unlikely items
hobgoblin
post Nov 23 2003, 05:09 PM
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heh, that can still be done. only takes 2 more succeses then before :)
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Siege
post Nov 23 2003, 05:27 PM
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Yet another reason why I don't like the mechanical balance fix of the 3rd edition initiative system.

A faster, higher initiative person could (theoretically) wear out someone's combat pool with repeated attacks.

Just a rant on my part.

-Siege
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hobgoblin
post Nov 23 2003, 05:42 PM
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think of it like running out of tricks and being guided into a corner ;)

basicly the same deal with the fight in matrix down in the subway, both are burning combat pool to try and outmove the other.
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Jimmy_the_Fixer
post Nov 23 2003, 06:05 PM
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I don't like the fact that the mace in the cannon companion has a higher availiability than the mono sword... :|
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Tanka
post Nov 23 2003, 06:12 PM
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Have you ever tried to find a mace in the real world? How about a sword?

Sure, it's mono, but nobody likes maces. They're big and clunky. Swords are cool. Ask all the movies.
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 23 2003, 06:15 PM
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Go Go would probably disagree (even if she was using more of a Flail/Whip than a Mace). :) Mmm... Go Go. <Homer drool>
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TinkerGnome
post Nov 23 2003, 06:24 PM
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If you want to get technical...

QUOTE (MitS @ p134)
Assume a character can inflict any desired level of Physical damage on himself.
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Tanka
post Nov 23 2003, 06:25 PM
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*stab* Hate. *stab* That. *stab* Movie! *stab*

Oh, and, by all terms and technicalities, that really has no subclass, so I just call it a "ball and chain," which is almost its own subclass, but not really.
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Siege
post Nov 23 2003, 06:56 PM
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QUOTE (TinkerGnome)
If you want to get technical...

QUOTE (MitS @ p134)
Assume a character can inflict any desired level of Physical damage on himself.

Great, now...if I put the same gun to the temple of a disliked character's head and squeezed the trigger how many 9M times will I have to inflict before his head explodes like a ripe watermelon?

-Siege
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Dr Komuso
post Nov 24 2003, 05:23 AM
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Slightly off topic, but how in the hell would you handle an accidently shooting?

Can Little Elfy play with Daddy Elfy's Predator all day without worrying about shooting himself? If he does shoot himself does the GM default to Little Elfy's quickness and roll his own stats against him? If Little Elfy gets a success does he take 9M damage?
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Shockwave_IIc
post Nov 24 2003, 06:02 AM
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Could our brawler go full defense-Zoning, claim super postion if he takes no damage (the manouver was successful) Then lamp the knave from a blindside?
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Zazen
post Nov 24 2003, 06:06 AM
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QUOTE (tanka)
Oh, and, by all terms and technicalities, that really has no subclass, so I just call it a "ball and chain," which is almost its own subclass, but not really.

In an interview with Tarentino that I read, he called it the "Go-Go Ball" :)
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Dr Vital
post Nov 24 2003, 06:17 AM
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QUOTE (Dr Komuso)
Slightly off topic, but how in the hell would you handle an accidently shooting?

Can Little Elfy play with Daddy Elfy's Predator all day without worrying about shooting himself?  If he does shoot himself does the GM default to Little Elfy's quickness and roll his own stats against him?  If Little Elfy gets a success does he take 9M damage?

Littly Elfy defaults to quickness.

Little Elfy rolls a 1.

At that point it's clearly 9M damage.
Think she's wearing armor? :evil:

Seriously though... I think you're expecting the system to simulate too much.
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 24 2003, 07:31 AM
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Indeed. Y'know, that person called the GM is there for a reason...
On a side note, we have a lot of doctors about the place.

~J
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Arethusa
post Nov 24 2003, 09:32 AM
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QUOTE (Dr Komuso)
Slightly off topic, but how in the hell would you handle an accidently shooting?

Can Little Elfy play with Daddy Elfy's Predator all day without worrying about shooting himself? If he does shoot himself does the GM default to Little Elfy's quickness and roll his own stats against him? If Little Elfy gets a success does he take 9M damage?

This is a place where a system of rolling for which bodypart got hit (a la Raygun's rules) would be very useful.

I've also considered rolling an extra 2 dice on either side of the equation purely for damage staging up and down (not applicable for determining whether you hit or not) simply to add a degree of balanced randomness to the equation, allowing a potentially wider range of results without statistically overshadowing skill. Not sure how it would work in practice, though. Just musing, mostly.
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hobgoblin
post Nov 24 2003, 02:41 PM
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like someone above hinted about, if its not coverd by the rules let the GM handle it (with a bit of logic and whats good for the current game).

to littile rules may be a problem but to many rules is alls oa problem as then you risk geting contradictions. and there is allways the rules lawyer...

basicly if a person put a gun to someones head then the person would be either dead or have some insane reflexes. no need to check damage at all.

if we had the kind of ingame reality that this thread is allmost begging for then we would be calculating physics for every bullet fired...
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Siege
post Nov 24 2003, 03:45 PM
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Believe it or not, I am firmly in the "logical house rule" camp.

I'm just pointing out the insanity of people who would justify standing at ground zero and say, "Well, I'm not dead...only at Deadly."

-Siege
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Wireknight
post Nov 24 2003, 06:29 PM
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QUOTE (Moonstone Spider)
I'm trying to figure out why anybody would use some of the lower-end shadowrun equipment.

Take knives. Say two people with roughly equal stats and skills go at it, one with a knife and one with bare hands.

The guy with bare hands will do a moderate stun wound.

The guy with a knife will do a light physical wound.

All other things being equal, the guy with the knife is screwed. The fist man only needs 4 successful melee attacks (Assuming he never manages to stage up/down) while the knife guy needs to land 10 to win. Armor works against each equally. While the fist man will only knock his opponent unconcious, 9 times out of 10 on a shadowrun that's good enough, and on the 10th you can take the knife from his unconcious body and cut his throat anyway. And since the fist does damage faster, the knife guy will lose initiative and gain + to TNs faster, making his chances of success even lower than they look. On top of that the fist can't be taken away (well, most of the time), doesn't set off alarms, and won't attract Lonestar's attention. Overall, a knife is a totally useless item.

Even on the boards people joke at how silly light pistols are. Given how much armor even average joe wears, a light pistol is useless. If that's the case, how the heck can you expect to ever use a holdout pistol? 4L damage = 0 damage against anything other than no armor at all, even with only armor clothing or a cheap armor vest a person with body 2 will probably never take damage from any holdout pistol without tons of staging up by a person with pistols skill 12.

Things only get worse when you consider a few other weapons. For instance, cyber fangs and horns. While they at least do strenth +1 (L) rather than the knife's pathetic damage, they have a -1 reach that makes the odds of success nastily low compared to good only reliable Mr. Fist. Of course the fact that you could buy several assault rifles for the price of a cyberfang or horn (not to mention essence cost) only makes things even more absurd.

Worst of all is the adept power missile mastery. Goody, you can toss credsticks and do half strength(L) damage. If the GM is kind enough to let you be near them at a critical time. Armor defends against it normally, it's so unlikely that you could ever do damage with missile mastery that I have never seen an adept take it. While it's theoretically useful when combined with Shuriken, they are basically a knife with a range lower than a holdout pistol.

Perhaps it's just my inexperience but does anybody ever use these items/powers? If so how can they be successful with such gear?

QUOTE

Take knives.  Say two people with roughly equal stats and skills go at it, one with a knife and one with bare hands.

The guy with bare hands will do a moderate stun wound.

The guy with a knife will do a light physical wound.

All other things being equal, the guy with the knife is screwed.  The fist man only needs 4 successful melee attacks (Assuming he never manages to stage up/down) while the knife guy needs to land 10 to win.  Armor works against each equally.  While the fist man will only knock his opponent unconcious, 9 times out of 10 on a shadowrun that's good enough, and on the 10th you can take the knife from his unconcious body and cut his throat anyway.  And since the fist does damage faster, the knife guy will lose initiative and gain + to TNs faster, making his chances of success even lower than they look.  On top of that the fist can't be taken away (well, most of the time), doesn't set off alarms, and won't attract Lonestar's attention.  Overall, a knife is a totally useless item.


You're overlooking that there are a lot of different knives, including ones that deal (STR)M or (STR+1)M. However, even the basic knife deals (STR+2)L. The law of the land as far as TN#s goes is that the most powerful single force in SR is the capacity to alter TN#. You can halve an opponent's chance to resist the damage, with that additional +2 TN#.

QUOTE

Even on the boards people joke at how silly light pistols are.  Given how much armor even average joe wears, a light pistol is useless.  If that's the case, how the heck can you expect to ever use a holdout pistol?  4L damage = 0 damage against anything other than no armor at all, even with only armor clothing or a cheap armor vest a person with body 2 will probably never take damage from any holdout pistol without tons of staging up by a person with pistols skill 12.


Holdouts have their uses. Mostly quickdrawn called shots to unarmored portions, with Hollowpoints or Glaser rounds. A 4L holdout with the right ammo, and a called shot to the head, would deal 7M base damage, 7S if you apply both staging and armor defeating values. Smartlink-2 modification is probably a good idea, but so long as you get a success or two, and it's in a Surprise round(no combat pool, no dodge) you'll do some damage, maybe even kill. Mind you, this is for firearm-proficient characters. If your skill's below 5, I wouldn't recommend it.

QUOTE

Things only get worse when you consider a few other weapons.  For instance, cyber fangs and horns.  While they at least do strenth +1 (L) rather than the knife's pathetic damage, they have a -1 reach that makes the odds of success nastily low compared to good only reliable Mr. Fist.  Of course the fact that you could buy several assault rifles for the price of a cyberfang or horn (not to mention essence cost) only makes things even more absurd.


Yeah. It's a style thing above all else. Street samurai wannabee predators/vamps probably eat it up. Also has some of that same surprise factor stuff. I tend to rule such unorthodox attacks might call for a Surprise test before combat.

QUOTE

Worst of all is the adept power missile mastery.  Goody, you can toss credsticks and do half strength(L) damage.  If the GM is kind enough to let you be near them at a critical time.  Armor defends against it normally, it's so unlikely that you could ever do damage with missile mastery that I have never seen an adept take it.  While it's theoretically useful when combined with Shuriken, they are basically a knife with a range lower than a holdout pistol.


Missile Mastery's ability to use random objects to deal damage is almost useless, but the fact that it grants +2 to the power of all actual thrown weapon attacks makes it essential for characters who rely on thrown knives, shuriken, etc...
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krishcane
post Nov 24 2003, 06:31 PM
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Regarding children playing with guns...

A lot of kids (and adults) playing with guns really do give themselves about a Moderate wound -- they shoot themselves in the foot or hand. I know a few cases of this among my friends. The only case I know of where a kid was playing with daddy's gun and inflicted a fatal wound on himself was with a shotgun. The SR rules actually reflect this -- 10S base damage, staged up with shot to 10D against an unarmed target.

Based on this admittedly casual experience, I bet there are a lot less cases of accidental self-inflicted death by .38 or 9 mm than 12-gauge.

--K

Edit for grammar: geez, is English my native tongue after all?

Edit again: Here's a fun firearms "fact page". Interesting data -- for every firearms death, it is estimated that there are 5 to 7 firearms injuries. That means that when a firearm hits someone, it only has a 12% to 16% chance of killing them on average. Since almost two-thirds of firearms deaths are suicides, and presumably suicide-attempt death-rates are higher than homicide-attempt death-rates, it means that the death rates for homicide-attempts and firearms-accidents are even lower. It is indeed rare to die of an accidental firearm discharge, even if it hits you.
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 24 2003, 06:47 PM
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Troll adepts are very, very unpleasant with Missile Mastery. 8L damage ain't nothing to laugh at, and that's before we start getting into actual missile weapons.

~J
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Zazen
post Nov 24 2003, 08:06 PM
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Add dikote, of course!

9M from a bent paper clip is awfully fun stuff.
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 24 2003, 08:51 PM
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Dikoted paperclips... gods that's a scary idea.
Dikoting your credstick, though, isn't the most massively off-the-wall idea. Screwy, yes, but cash-in-your-mattress screwy, not cash-hidden-in-living-bunnies screwy.

~J
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 24 2003, 08:58 PM
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Dikoting is really only useful on edged weapons. It doesn't increase the Damage Level for any other types of weapons, and I don't think a bent paper-clip would count as an edged weapon.

And how do you propose dikoting your credit card? The heat would destroy it before the dikoe even had a chance to touch it.
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 24 2003, 09:04 PM
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Is there a canon statement that credsticks must be plastic? I would assume it would be a trivial matter to get a metal-cased credstick, and if you've got the money to throw away on dikote, you can certainly get it coated before they stick the electronics in.
As for a bent paperclip, his use of it as an edged weapon is debateable. Still 9L if non-edged.

~J
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DR.PaiN
post Nov 24 2003, 09:18 PM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Indeed. Y'know, that person called the GM is there for a reason...
On a side note, we have a lot of doctors about the place.

~J

Duh. :D
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