 Misc rules questions 2, drones, nade launchers, recoil, stance |
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 Oct 10 2007, 12:52 PM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 133 Joined: 18-August 03 From: Apopka, FL U.S.A. Member No.: 5,516  |
From the FAQ:
Of course, everyone reads things a little differently, but I take their answer to mean that "off the shelf" drones contain whichever sensor packages you want at the time of purchase equal to the vehicle's capacity. Robert (aka Spanner) |
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Oct 11 2007, 01:27 AM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 573 Joined: 17-September 07 Member No.: 13,319 |
In which case, the cheap way for a bouncer to check people for explosives and gear is to mount a Rating 6 olfactory scanner, Rating 6 cyberware scanner, and Rating 3 MAD, on an iBall minidrone, since the drone costs less than the sensors bought separately...
and every vehicle can have all sensors but one, at max rating, for free. I prefer that optical and low-resolution collision avoidance radar are built-in. The rules for targeting and Signal suggest that radar is involved at some level. Your interpretation is valid from the phrasing. A FAQ should have clearer phrasing! |
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Oct 11 2007, 01:00 PM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 133 Joined: 18-August 03 From: Apopka, FL U.S.A. Member No.: 5,516 |
Well, I don't want to imply that you get the sensors for free. I think you should still pay for each of the sensor systems as shown on the table on page 325. I'm a little confused by your example though, you mention putting 3 systems in an eyeball drone, but those drones only have a capacity of 2. And I'm not sure I understand your vehicle reference. Most of the vehicles shown on the table have a sensor capacity of 1. And yes, if you didn't pay for additional sensors, by my reading of the default rules, the vehicle could still perform the maneuvers needed to drive itself if needed. But, as you say, this is all interpretation and not spelled out implicitly in the rules. Robert (aka Spanner) |
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Oct 11 2007, 01:13 PM
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#29
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
If you are going to use an example based on the FAQ, at least use all of it, not just the part which you think you can use to prove your point. The FAQ clearly adds the limit of capacity of the drone, which you do not use in your example. |
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Oct 11 2007, 10:59 PM
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#30
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
if i was going to give drones visual by default, it would be with the understanding that it can't be upgraded without buying the 100 :nuyen: camera sensor, personally.
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Oct 12 2007, 02:33 AM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 573 Joined: 17-September 07 Member No.: 13,319 |
Hunh? p. 342, the iball is a minidrone costing $1500; p. 325, a minidrone has a sensor capacity of three, eg the three expensive ones that I listed.
p. 25, vehicles have a sensor capacity of 12. They may have a lower sensor RATING, but that's for their Observe dice pool, not how many sensors one can install into them. If you wanna rule that every vehicle gets your choice of free sensors up to capacity, or that a Doberman starts with no senses at all, then hey, it's your game, have fun! |
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Oct 12 2007, 06:17 AM
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#32
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Neophyte Runner Group: Validating Posts: 2,283 Joined: 12-October 07 Member No.: 13,662 |
Actually in the RAW there is, as you stated give a penalty for partial cover. Here's what I see. Melee Attack Modifers: +3 dice, Opponent is Prone, nuf said. Makes sense. +2 dice, superior position (I'd rule this one against someone kneeling/sitting, I'd go so far as to say as prone is just exceptionally superior position and not make these two cumulative, especially w/ the knockdown rules) Ranged Attack Modifiers: "Target Has Good Cover: If at least 50% of the target's form is obscured by intervening terrain. A -4 dice pool modifier applies. This modifier can also apply to prone targets at least 20meters away." I'd also say this would apply to someone sit/kneeling deployed behind sandbags or a desk. Or say prone behind a corner or tree at shorter range. Defense Modifiers: Defender Prone: Characters who are on the ground have a more difficult time getting out of the way and suffer a -2 dice pool modifier. This modifier does not apply to defending against ranged attacks unless the attacker is extremely close (5m or less) So there's a definate advantage to going prone in a ranged firefight. Over 20m: -4 ranged penalty to hit you 6-20m: no penalty, no bonus, danger Will Robinson danger <5m: -2 penalty to your defense, +3 melee bonus to hit you Bipod has qualifying text in it's description which I think is key.... "A bipod can be attached to the underbarrel mount and provides 2 points of recoil compensation WHEN PROPERLY DEPLOYED". I'd argue that sitting w/ the bipod itself 2 feet off the ground isn't deploying it so no bonus. No penalty, no bonus is fair for just having the accessory attached. As far as sit/kneel vs. prone... going prone is a free action. Standing up is a simple action. I'd argue that you need to stand as a simple action from sitting as well (or a free action at least, it's definately not no action IMO). I'd consider 'kneeling to be sitting for game simplicity purposes... if you can drop prone w/ the bipod, I have nothing against someone kneeling behind a desk as a free action for the same benefits and costs. The other idea of giving a bonus for sit/kneeling in the open I don't think is apt... just because they're a slightly smaller target. You don't see a size mod in the game making a dwarf harder to hit than a troll at range. Why should a human the same size as a dwarf get a mod just because he's reduced his silhouette by kneeling. |
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Oct 12 2007, 08:18 PM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 573 Joined: 17-September 07 Member No.: 13,319 |
Cogent point, but I think the -2 penalty to defense should apply at all ranges. If you're prone, your rolling, ducking, etc. is reduced just as much when the enemy is 6+ meters away. Still worth it for the -4 penalty to the attack roll. What I meant was that RAW gives no bonus to the attack roll of a person firing from prone. A person firing from prone, or kneeling/sitting with their elbows resting on a stable surface, has an advantage in keeping the gun rock-steady; contact with the ground reduces minor hand tremors, and helps absorb recoil (including the real-world recoil of a single-shot firearm). |
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Oct 12 2007, 09:27 PM
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#34
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
I think the point is, at 6m+ range if you're prone your inability to move far away from your position quickly pretty much negates the penalty the shooter should have gotten to fire at a smaller target (partial cover). You're vulnerable enough as it is at this range since your vulnerable to attackers (ranged or melee) closing and remove your advantage and give you a penalty instead. If someone was shooting at me at 10-15 meters in real life and there was no cover (and he used a rifle) I would rather drop prone than just run, assuming I had a gun of my own. |
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Oct 13 2007, 07:08 PM
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#35
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Neophyte Runner Group: Validating Posts: 2,283 Joined: 12-October 07 Member No.: 13,662 |
I think your reaction at that range is critically flawed. Firstly you get a nomination for a darwin award for allowing someone armed w/ a rifle to get that close in an environment with nowhere to hide! You go prone to exploit low cover in CQB to eploit cover (mounds, hills, ditches, otherwise known as getting out of sight)... Shadowrun has the right reaction... start moving yourself to make yourself a hard target til you can get into actual hard cover (+3 defense dice). (running straight toward or away from the shooter only makes you an easier low aspect target) (charging target mod). Someone w/ a longarm at that range should have difficulty engaging you if you get really close to them... if you can close that distance w/o getting hit (the fact that he didn't hit you the first time raises serious questions of the other guys competency). (watch the guys shooting at 30-50' in a pistol competition sometime if you think going prone w/o cover at that range is going to help you!)
Now onto your regularly scheduled post.... Changing the attackers dice pool does two things. It makes the attack absolutely more/less damaging and accurate by affecting the non-net number of hits. Changing the defenders dice pool generally doesn't do anything to make the max damage of the attack any stronger, it primarily affects %hit and the net amount of damage if it does hit. For most purposes in game... I see absolutely no problems w/ the RAW. Good game design should only penalize one dice pool or the other to keep things simple. The only time it gives both a bonus and a penalty reflects a clear discprency between melee and ranged, and ranged is basically nothing more than an extra range based modifier which makes sense. They even have the ranges set at reasonable points where prone is an advantage, no advantage and a clear disadvantage. As explained, I see no reason to have the character able to do more damage/more precisely just because he went prone (potentially w/ a weapon which is harder to use prone than standing like a pistol!). Recoil compensation on a bipod makes emminent sense given it's primary usage on weapons being used as infantry LMG's. The only other place bipods are commonly fielded are in sniper/benchrest at long range where you need a highly stable rifle and aren't radically repositioning it every 3s. This is one of my gripes w/ many combat systems. Long/Extreme ranged combat encounters are broken IMO. I'm shocked there aren't snipers everywhere in the bloody game it makes it so ludicrously easy! (especially for the powers that be) The rules are fine for short range room to room, or urban CQB which is the vast majority of the settings action. Rant mode On: Really only a -3 for EXTREME RANGE... gee. the fact at that range that the target is going to have a hell of a time even PERCIEVING a POORLY HIDDEN rifleman! The flatfooted benefits alone... then an optical scope completely negates that?! Smartlink might show you bullet path, but it still doesn't account for the fact that the bullet is in flight for a FULL COMBAT ROUND (2-3s flight time) you have to be a pretty good and lucky shooter to lead that. I can see giving tech benefits to offset a large dicepool penalty w/ tech. If I wanted more realistic long range rules. I'd immediately up the range penalties to say -2, -4, -6 at the least (probably more like -2, -5, -9). Change optics to reduce range penalties by one range bracket. And give a bipod bonus to take aim for single shot rifles (intead of +1 per take aim, give it a +2 per take aim up to the normal max). If you have to physically turn the gun more than 5degrees while taking aim... a bipod doesn't help you. Somehow make an activated smartlink in LOS shine out in augmented reality negating long-range perception mods to see an overly equipment dependant wannabe sniper. Also I'd rework the range charts (I've hit 3/9 rounds into a chest sized silhouette w/ a M1911 frame .45ACP at 100m.. from kneeling). EG: point-blank(0), short(1), medium(3), long(6), extreme(10) (I'd give small weapons like pistols, SMG, carbine... a longer point-blank range reflecting that they're small and maneuverable and very usefull in close quarters battle (CQB), and give long arms like a rifle a shorter point-blank but a longer short bracket). |
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Oct 14 2007, 08:02 AM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 573 Joined: 17-September 07 Member No.: 13,319 |
Veering from the original question... how about a Too Close range with a -1 penalty to the attacker's dice pool? For a long-barrelled sniper rifle, maybe out to 4m; for a pistol, only if you're firing at someone who's literally chest-to-chest (eg fighting Wing Chun style); broken or not?
I still want a difference, expressible in dice pools, between firing from a braced position, aiming using sights (good at long range, relying on cover and reduced aspect not on dodging), vs close-quarters firing from the hip, pointing not aiming, possibly while sidestepping the adept charging you with a katana (getting as much Reaction defense dice as you would if you also were using a katana). More crunch than some prefer; optional high-detail rules for the tactics geeks. As for default vehicle/drone sensors: cf. p. 162 on Signature - clearly this is sensors optimized for detecting other vehicles - that doesn't make sense if the default is "blind and deaf" or "you get your free choice from the list". |
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