 Maxing out my Ally Spirit, Hehehehehehehehe.... |
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 Oct 10 2007, 12:20 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 284 Joined: 16-June 05 Member No.: 7,450  |
Ok, so get this. I was looking at the rules for Ally spirits and my conjuring and binding specilist. And I was thinking, after I've initiated a few times, how powerful could I make this thing and would it be feasible to summon and bind him.
So, I took my fox shaman and looked at summoning a man spirit. Jacked up my Charisma to 8, my Willpower to 7, Magic is 9, Summoning 7, and binding 7(9) for Beast Spirits. Step One: Get a lodge of force 18. I think you can tell where this is going by now. Step Two: Initiate three times. The metamagic I want to get are, in this order, Ally Spirit, Channeling, and Invoking. Mmmm....invoking.... Step Three: Get the money for a Binding foci, Summoning Foci, and a Power Foci. Preferably a combined force of 18. I'm gonna need that stuff... Step Four: Research the Ally Spirit formula...and this is kind of a hard part and could take a while. Step Five: Get some serious friends, one with high First Aid, and another mage with some healing ability. Friends are needed when you're sitting there, chanting, for 18 straight hours. Step Six: The actual roll. By my estimates, to get the most out of my spirit, I need to roll like a mad-man, blow as much Edge as I can, and hope for good healing rolls by my friends. Summoning the Spirit My Magic + Summoning + Power Foci VS Spirit Force 9 + 7 + 3 VS 18 19 VS 18 On this one, I'm fairly decent against the spirit. We can buy each other a tie, but I need a net success to summon him. Assuming he buys out, I'm taking at least 5 DV in physical drain. If he rolls, I'll be taking A LOT more...so we're hoping he buys it. ^.^ Drain Test 7 + 7 = 14 That's a buy of 3 DV, but I'm rolling this, as I'll need no damage for the binding test. Right after this test, if I can't roll away the drain, I'm gonna have to hope that my friendly healing mage can pull something off. I'm holding my Summoning Foci 3 in case I have to roll drain like a mad-man. :D Binding the Spirit My Magic + Binding + Power Foci + Binding Foci VS Spirit Force X 2 9 + 9 + 3 + 6 VS 36 27 VS 36 He would be buying 9 Sucesses. That hurts and I have to hope to god the spirit feels cocky enough to buy the sucesses instead of rolling, cause that'll help me greatly. Otherwise, I'm in trouble. This is where I also blow half of my edge on exploding my dice. And hoping the spirit doesn't do the same. Oh please let it be a cocky spirit... Drain Test 7 + 7 = 14 Again, only a buy of 3 DV. Assuming he buys his successes AND I didn't take any damage back in the summoning of the spirit...I can buy the successes and stay standing. If not, I have to blow the rest of my edge trying to explode the dice. If everything goes well and I can bind that sucker without dieing in the process, what I'll have is a force 18 ally spirit that has been invoked to a Great Form spirit. And then I have channeling. After getting to know my walking god alter ego, I'd channel him into myself and...mmmm....fun times. :D But this is all just me dreaming. Unless someone can figure out if this isn't possible or if it's more possible then I've listed here. :D |
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Oct 10 2007, 12:27 PM
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#2
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
The money for the foci isn't an issue if you have Enchanting, but have you added up all the karma you'll need for all this? You'll be long sick of the game before you get anywhere near that much karma.
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Oct 10 2007, 12:29 PM
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#3
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,245 Joined: 27-April 07 From: Running the streets of Southeast Virginia Member No.: 11,548 |
There is some debate on the Invoking as the writer of the Ally section didn't want to allow Invoking but a subsequent revision by other parties took out the verbage that would have prohibited Invoking.
Everything else looks reasonable based on what I remember of the rules since I don't have my SM book with me. |
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Oct 10 2007, 12:31 PM
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#4
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
tone it down a bit . . force 15 . . or maybe even 10 . . it's bad enough that way and pretty much safe to assume that you could pull THAT one off . .
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Oct 10 2007, 12:33 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 284 Joined: 16-June 05 Member No.: 7,450 |
Oh, I understand that the only way this works is with a Karma of 300+. I plan on this guy being an NPC that my characters are going to work for. He's a fox shaman with a mission or quest to heal the world of the wounds what it has taken (ie toxins, radiation, trash). Borderline eco-terrorist...but kinder and gentler. ^.^
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Oct 10 2007, 12:41 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 315 Joined: 12-October 03 From: Germany, Regensburg Member No.: 5,709 |
Can't the Ally also use Karma to prevent being summoned and bound? Such a powerfull spirit won't come like a dog just because someone calls... :-)
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Oct 10 2007, 12:49 PM
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#7
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
Karma - no. Edge - possibly.
That statement presumes that the Ally even exists prior to the magician creating it. In some views, the Ally comes into being through the summoner's action. Trying to shuck it at that moment would be akin to an infant willingly attempting suicide rather than being born. I might see an Ally trying to shuck the summoner's control later (under the prescribed conditions), but not during the act that forms its being. |
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Oct 10 2007, 01:27 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 343 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Birmingham, UK Member No.: 13,515 |
Um, you can't magically heal damage caused by Drain or Fading...
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Oct 10 2007, 02:00 PM
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#9
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,245 Joined: 27-April 07 From: Running the streets of Southeast Virginia Member No.: 11,548 |
You can't magically heal Physical Drain Damage? Page and book citation please? (I'm at work and don't have my books with me)
Even if true, you can still use First Aid and with high enough skill & hits, patch a person up back to normal. |
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Oct 10 2007, 02:06 PM
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#10
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Target Group: Members Posts: 47 Joined: 17-February 07 Member No.: 11,022 |
You can only use one focus on a given test, this includes the associated drain test.
on the other hand, ally spirits are by definition willing partners rather than servants so you probably don't have to worry about the spirit spending edge. |
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Oct 10 2007, 02:33 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 343 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Birmingham, UK Member No.: 13,515 |
http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/faq.shtml#4
The answer to the first question makes the point very explicit. |
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Oct 10 2007, 02:52 PM
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#12
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
Whenever I see the topic title, at first I always read "Making out (with) my Ally Spirit" and think "There's not dikote in SR4 (yet)!" :silly:
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Oct 10 2007, 03:16 PM
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#13
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Not true. You could use a Power Focus on the actual test and then something like a Summoning or Spellcasting Focus to help resist Drain. |
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Oct 10 2007, 03:19 PM
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#14
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Uh... yeah. Good luck with that. I'm thinking that you're looking at a Rating 18 Astral Quest. Um... good luck with that too. I also don't really see what the Channeling is for here. Seems like a severe waste of time. In any case, if you really want to get yourself a Force 18 Spirit, it can be done. Not the way you've planned out, but it can be done. You'll want Ally Spirit, Centering, and Sacrifice. Yes. Seriously. Sacrifice. So first off you're confronted with the unenviable task of attempting to Summon a Force 18 Spirit. You roll however many dice you roll, and it rolls 18. You could spend an Edge to reroll failures and probably win, but fuck it - Burn an Edge Permanently to get an extraordinary success. Boo-yah! Unfortunately, now you resist Drain, which means that you can't just Burn an Edge to pass through this. Instead, you have to actually resist the drain, and you'll want to resist it all because you're about to go up for the Binding and there's no sense going into that injured. So you sacrifice one of your team mates. I'm not even kidding. They sit there like a suckker and you hit them with an ax while summoning your spirit - they take about 7 physical and you don't take that much. You resist 5 physical and should be able to do it withot problems. Now it's time for the Binding. The spirit will roll about 12 Hits. That's bad. But again, we're just going to Burn an Edge to make that problem go away. Now it's time for Drain resistance. Problematic. It's time to hit another team mate with an ax - that drops our expected take from 24 down to 17. So we're going to then have to get about 6 hits on Drain Resistance to stay awake - something we desperately need to do. And that can be done. We're totally in. All it took was a ricockulous astral quest; a near fatal injury to three members of the team, 3 initiate grades, 144 extra Karma, 2 permanently burnt Edge points (and probably two more Edge besides), and of course a little luck that the spirit doesn't roll substantially over average and leave us resisting 40 Physical and just exploding anyway. But hey. At the end of the day you are the man with a spirit that can grab Ghostwalker by the nuts and rip his scaly ass in half. That's worth some risk. -Frank |
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Oct 10 2007, 03:27 PM
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#15
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
no. the summoning/binding/casting/whatevercausesdrain test is a separate test from the drain test. therefore, a magician can use a power focus on the first test (provided the roll includes magic) and then use another type of focus to assist on the drain resistance test, which is a different test entirely. as far as 'easier' ways of doing this, traditionally i believe you would burn edge for an automatic critical success... |
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Oct 10 2007, 03:37 PM
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#16
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,245 Joined: 27-April 07 From: Running the streets of Southeast Virginia Member No.: 11,548 |
I believe there was an errata / FAQ item that took away drain resistance assistance from spellcasting. It was some statement about spellcasting foci (which by their nature require a category) and apparently clarification was included that spelled this out but at the same time, cut out the ability for spellcasting foci to be used in drain resistance tests. With that in mind, RAW + Errata/FAQ = Power Focus is better. I don't know for certain if that applies to Summoning foci. I'd have to read my books and check the online resources (can't go to SR website at work). |
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Oct 10 2007, 03:46 PM
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#17
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Old Man of the North Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 9,675 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463 |
I wrote the SR helpline quite some time ago with GM fear about a PC thinking to use burnt Edge points during the summoning/binding process. Basically, two burnt Edge points could get an out-of-the-box PC a bound Force 12 spirit. I figured a spirit would counter this with its own Edge burning. Rob Boyle answered, suggesting the GM should do his bit to overrule such abuses, and agreed that a spirit would indeed burn an Edge point, at least after the PC did it in the summoning and then proceeded to attempt a binding. We agreed that in an opposed test, if both opponents burned an Edge point, it would cancel out, and an actual roll would be required. Then the spirit could watch with glee as the PC burned in his own drain. |
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Oct 10 2007, 03:49 PM
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#18
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
We're talking about an Ally here. It's a Loyalty 6 Contact. It's not going burn permanent Edge to fuck you with fire.
-Frank |
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Oct 10 2007, 03:57 PM
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#19
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Old Man of the North Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 9,675 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463 |
According to page 104 of Street Magic, second paragraph under "Conjuring Ritual", the ritual is complete only after the summoner pays Karma, which follows upon a successful binding. Failing the drain and dieing precludes spending Karma. |
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Oct 10 2007, 04:47 PM
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#20
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,245 Joined: 27-April 07 From: Running the streets of Southeast Virginia Member No.: 11,548 |
But the spirit you are conjuring is an Ally spirit according to a template / recipe you created / found / acquired. The very ritual is to summon a custom designed spirit whose loyalty to you absolute (at least at first). In essence, the spirit is designed to want you to bind it. In this I would have to agree with Frank in that it's not going to try and screw you over on the initial summoning / binding. It may very well do so later but that depends on how you have treated it. |
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Oct 10 2007, 05:17 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 284 Joined: 16-June 05 Member No.: 7,450 |
Honestly, I think it all depends on how nice you make the spirit to you. Techincally (and this is as technical as I can get) if you're creating the spirit, it hasn't formed it's stats yet, just it's force. So that's why it's own stats are not factored into the initial summoning and such. But, that's technically. And I do agree with the loyalty thing. For my game, this character did indeed participate in a bunch of astral quests, all centered on getting access to the 18 force quest. After pulling that off, the spirit was impressed enough to allow itself to be summoned. The shaman just needs to finish the ritual. The spirit will still test him to see if he's still worthy, but it won't out-right kill him because he can.
And I like the idea of the Sacrificing. ^.^ |
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Oct 10 2007, 05:20 PM
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#22
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Actually, according to the rules you summon a normal spirit and the binding ritual transforms the normal spirit into an Ally based on the template you choose. It is the spirit equivalent of ordering a pizza and then biosculpting and permanently p-fixing the deliveryman into your own personal bunraku slave.
Reasonably, very few spirits would appreciate someone attempting to transform them at such a fundamental level. |
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Oct 10 2007, 05:26 PM
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#23
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Old Man of the North Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 9,675 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463 |
Page 52, SM (Under "Ally Conjuration"): "This Metamagic grants her the power to mold and enhance a bound spirit she already possesses according to the 'blueprint' of the ally spirit formula."
The bound spirit is not yet an Ally spirit. Page 104, SM: "If the binding is unsuccessful, the ally spirit never takes shape ... the character must spend the predefined amount of Karma or the ritual fails." The ritual is not complete until the Karma is spent. Until the ritual is complete, there is no Ally spirit to make decisions, only a spirit. |
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Oct 10 2007, 05:34 PM
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#24
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
hyz, if it is that bad for a spirit you might as well add "burn 1 permanent edge to counter the spirits burned edge" to the cost of binding an ally because if it is that horrible a thing then EVERY spirit is always going to burn edge to resist it.
Chris Well.... except the ones that like to be dominated. |
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Oct 10 2007, 08:18 PM
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#25
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Still waiting on an answer from Rob about that, but that Errata change (strangely and illogically), if true, only applies to Spellcasting Foci, not any of the others. |
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