 Shadowrun and Antifa |
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 Oct 21 2007, 10:38 PM
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#126
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Immoral Elf  Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486  |
Note that I snipped the portion of your post referring to Wardens, and qualified my post with the word 'most'. The general rank and file soldier or guard had no more choice to be there than those assigned to the Eastern Front. |
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Oct 21 2007, 10:43 PM
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#127
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
The guards and wardens in the concentration camps were SS men. No soldiers of the Wehrmacht were on duty there. SS men were volunteers (we're talking about the german one - while other occupied countries formed SS divisions too, those didn't work on concentration camps), noone was forced to serve in the SS. Wouldn't made much sense, as the SS was a sort of "elite troop" and thus were attractive for fanatics only. |
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Oct 21 2007, 10:44 PM
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#128
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 640 Joined: 8-October 07 Member No.: 13,611 |
But what organization would advocate for it?
I like not having to travel between states out here on a two-lane road.
Was anything that came from the colonization of North America worth the lives of millions of people? I'd say so.
I bet that kept the unions in line. But that's not a bad idea. |
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Oct 21 2007, 10:52 PM
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#129
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Volunteering to serve in the SS is a totally different thing than actually volunteering for the duty they ended up carrying out (in some cases). I am sure that most of those 'volunteers' did not have prior detailed knowledge of just what they were signing up for. I was not intending to get this deeply into a discussion about a topic this sensitive to you (and some others), nor do I intend to pursue the matter. You obviously have your views, and they are by your own admission set so deeply in stone that they are unlikely to change with even the most convincing argument backed up by incontroversial proof (which isn't coming from me :D). |
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Oct 21 2007, 10:53 PM
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#130
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I recognize that this is a joke, but anarchism and anomieism aren't the same thing. Now if it only weren't so difficult to keep non-hierarchical organizations together… ~J |
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Oct 21 2007, 11:02 PM
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#131
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 640 Joined: 8-October 07 Member No.: 13,611 |
One Reich, One Fuhrer...
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Oct 21 2007, 11:35 PM
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#132
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
So the Trail of Tears and the forced relocations of Palestinians both show streaks of procrastination... It all makes sense. |
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Oct 22 2007, 12:39 AM
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#133
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...the above quote was primarily in reference to interurban transportation. If you read my last post you will notice that I agree a good highway system is important but as complement of rather than an exception to rail. Personally I'd rather pay someone else to deal with the "piloting" (I know, poor term relating to rail but "driving" doesn't really fit either) responsibilities and hassles so I can sit back and enjoy the trip or tend to other things like writing or planning what I will be doing when I arrive at my destination. I don't have to deal with traffic, speed traps, big trucks, crappy fast food, roach motels, and the potential of that breakdown in the middle of bumf**k nowhere. |
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Oct 22 2007, 02:32 AM
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#134
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Ditto most of the sentiment behind this part of the post, for the record. I'm primarily of German stock, myself, and have the dubious pleasure of actually having had family on both sides of WWII, as well as (I only learned somewhat recently, upon my last grandfather's death) actually having a measurable 1/16th Jewish ancestry (that branch of the family tree being cut off in the 1940s). I imagine having a certain three or four of my recent (great-grandparents or younger) family members in the same room at the same time would be...uhh...dramatic, for want of a better word. So I know my own views concerning the entire affair of WWII are...well..my own views. It's a period of history I've studied quite a bit, thought about pretty hard, and had to make up my own mind about -- sometimes contrary to what I was told by one family member or another, or The History Channel, or any given movie or college class or whatever other single source you can think of. I don't mean to piss anyone off -- just this once -- when I share those views or thoughts, since it's a topic that so many people rightfully take so seriously. |
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Oct 22 2007, 03:07 AM
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#135
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I would argue that because it is such a serious topic, it's one that we ought to be particularly willing to piss people off about—because ultimately many of the attitudes around it are actively dangerous. Sensitivity can be afforded for little things, but "it can't happen here"/"they're monsters, fundamentally different" and the like threatens us all.
I have to fight my tendency to avoid confrontation (hey, stop laughing!), but I believe the risks of letting that sort of thing go unchallenged far outweigh the personal discomfort and potential ire of others I may incur, or the discomfort I may cause others. ~J |
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Oct 22 2007, 05:20 AM
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#136
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 249 Joined: 2-November 06 From: Bozeman, MT Member No.: 9,762 |
So, uh um.. do you have some sources to back up your assertions? See unlike Holocaust deniers (not saying you are one!) I like historical sources. Specifically:
Oh btw, I consider myself somewhat liberal and don't approve of Israel in its current incarnation. There have been some good issues raised in this thread. One that I would like to comment on is the Idea of political speak. Its mentioned in George Orwell's 1984 (not sure if it was originally his idea) that one can control the conversation and even rational thought simply by controlling the political terms used. A good example is Fascist: Major negative association and even more importantly: almost completely disassociated from what actual fascists thought it meant. And to shake up the rest of your world views: It has been suggested that nothing that came out of Nazi Germany was worth the cost of their negative actions. Unfortunately these weren't direct costs. If I could accelerate rocketry/propulsion research or more generally: science research, simply by gassing 6 million people (less than 1/1000 th of the world's population) I would have to give it some thought. However it seems that it would be easier just to increase federal science spending by an order of magnitude or 2. And yes SS officers weren't inhuman monsters; they were very human monsters -- the only kind there are. |
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Oct 22 2007, 05:23 AM
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#137
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i was thinking of those two examples specifically when i wrote what i wrote. Amerinds haven't been wiped out completely because they simultaneously stopped being a threat and became a larger than life mythical people in the eyes of their oppressors (for chrissake, the US cavalry names most of their attack helicopters after Amerind tribes). the Palestinians haven't been wiped out--yet--because Israel doesn't have enough backing--yet--to get away with a genocide of their own.
i have a hard time believing anybody in the SS didn't know what they were getting into, no matter what their assignment was. you can't kill eight million people (give or take a few million) in total, or even near-complete, secrecy. you can keep it quiet enough that much of your civilian population can claim to have not known, but you can't keep it out of the rumor mill that is the real motive power behind any military. SS recruits getting shipped in as guards to the concentration camps may not have had any direct proof of what was going on there, but all of them had to have heard the rumors.
i'm not a big fan of Israel, but i'm a bigger not-fan of not-facts. an official plan to give Palestine to the Jews came into being in 1917, and the process of making it a reality began in 1922. reaction to the Holocaust may have sped things up, but Jewish power and influence in the area had been growing steadily for two and a half decades before the UN made the decision to officially create the nation of Israel. |
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Oct 22 2007, 05:49 AM
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#138
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Oh, right. And normally I'm quite willing to smack people across the face with my opinion, and then club them over the head with it, give them a shot to the abs to double them over, and a final two-handed swing with my opinion just behind one ear to knock the bitch right out. But in this particular case, given the somewhat off-topic nature of the conversation as it's evolved, the fact I like Grinder, and the fact I feel like several of us were (accidentally or otherwise) kind of dog-piling on the guy as I reread this thread, I wanted to make it clear it wasn't anything personal. I wasn't necessarily arguing, so much as just conversing and sharing my own thoughts on the matter at hand. |
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Oct 22 2007, 05:56 AM
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#139
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
That's how I see it as well. I hold some pretty strong views on the topic myself, but I'm not really all that interested in 'winning an argument' about them. Especially here, and possibly at the expense of some good feeling on the part of other posters.
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Oct 22 2007, 05:58 AM
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#140
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Oh yeah? Well FUCK YOU. Dumpshock sucks anywa--oh, wait. Nevermind. Okay, carry on. Sorry. Reflex.
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Oct 22 2007, 06:36 AM
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#141
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun...uring_the_1930s (Admittedly, not without provocation.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Moyne http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massa...rab-Israeli_war http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count_Bernadotte (Lets put this one in perspective, shall we. Zionists murder a man who saved 15,000 people om Nazi death camps because they don't like the way he is negotiating peace) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qibya_massacre
Have you watched the news any time within th past seven years?
The International Criminal Court, the most evil orginization in existance today born out of silly notions about "War Crimes" and "Crimes against Humanity" for the implicit purpose of raping black children. And they do rape black children in a roundabout way. I explained that in a previous topic. It is a very obvious case of collective guilt about WWII spawning a merciless machine that rapes black children. Did I mention that they rape black children?
UN General Assembly Resolutions are not binding. The Partion Plan was a General Assembly Resolution. Hence, the Partition Plan was not binding. And it wasn't implemented. There wasn't even a serious attempt to implement it. When the British Mandate Expired, everything would have been exactly as it was, except for the fact that militant Zionists "declared independence" the day before. Let us examine that, for a moment. They were a minority population consisting of a rather large number of refugees at that point in time which just "declared independence" and kicked out all of the people who actually lived there. It would be the equivalent of a bunch of Blackwater employees vacationing in France (with their guns) and just declaring that France is independent while violently displacing all of the French people. No one would have stood for it if not for the whole death camps thing. The British certainly wouldn't have. Hell, plenty of British soldiers resigned so that they could stay beind and help the Arabs. |
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Oct 22 2007, 06:46 AM
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#142
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...I thought it was the Interstate Commerce Commission :grinbig: ...Oh Crap we're back on that topic again... ...bad KK! Evil, naughty KK! No more derails about transportation. Now go back to your streetcar barn and don't come out until you are told you can. |
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Oct 22 2007, 07:13 AM
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#143
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
you make it sound like the Zionists had no hope at all before the UN swooped in in 1947. they had strong support (and strong opposition) from many sectors of many nations around the world, and their presence and influence in the region had been growing for decades by that point. if anything, Britain relinquishing their mandate was a step forward for the Zionists, since it appears to me that by that point they'd run out of influence with the crown. i'm not saying the Holocaust wasn't a major factor in speeding up the formation of Israel. but i don't think that without it, the Zionist movement would have suddenly fallen to pieces. |
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Oct 22 2007, 08:02 AM
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#144
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 249 Joined: 2-November 06 From: Bozeman, MT Member No.: 9,762 |
OK, I'll grant Zionist terrorism too. But genocide seems to be too much of a reach. War crimes yes, Genocide no. The killing of Arabs (didn't see anyone identified as Christian, of course some of those Arabs could have been.) wasn't portrayed as ceaseless on the news, and btw for most of the last 7 years I lived VERY far away from Isreal, so lots of that stuff probably didn't make it (actually I still live pretty far away). None of the laws listed on wikipedia include capital punishment for holocaust denial. Most require gross underrepresentation so saying 5mill Jews died wouldn't get you thrown in jail. Maybe I just don't know enough about the international criminal court, but I'm completely missing the link between them, the Holocaust and sex slavery. Your post didn't really help illuminate me either. |
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Oct 22 2007, 08:10 AM
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#145
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
1,000,000 people is not enough to qualify for gross underrepresentation? One sixth of the recognized figure? What specific number would you put up as the cut-off point then before it is considered illegal (or in poor taste, or whatever complaint you would prefer)? 2,000,000 less dead? 3,000,000? |
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Oct 22 2007, 08:13 AM
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#146
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
the formation of the ICC was inspired by the Nuremberg trials. hyz claims (i'm neither disputing nor lending credence to these claims) that the ICC spends an inordinate amount of time crushing the ability of African nations to govern themselves, thus propagating sex slavery (because the lack of a strong government makes it easier to run such slave rings).
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Oct 22 2007, 08:14 AM
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#147
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I'm not sure as I agree with Hyzmarca, but his explanation of his opinion of the ICC (which comes from the Private Armys (sic) thread):
~J |
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Oct 22 2007, 10:23 AM
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#148
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
I wasn't aware that I was so sensitive on this topic before I dived into the discussion. I don't have any hard feelings or hold a grudge against anyone who has been involved in it and made controversial (to me) postings that came across strange to me. It was really interesting to see what opinions every one of you has about the topic of the Third Reich, making it for a experience I don't want to miss. So everything's fine here. :)
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Oct 22 2007, 10:24 AM
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#149
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
You are aware that the ICC charges the serbian warlords and did so in the past too? Unless I confuse the ICC with another court, but I don't think I do.
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Oct 22 2007, 10:39 AM
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#150
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
No, actually, the ICC has only investigated Sudan, the DRC, the CAR, and Darfur. In accordance with the principle of avoiding retroactive laws, it has no authority to investigate alleged crimes committed before 2002 (the date of its creation). Milošević was prosecuted by a special tribunal created specifically for
~J |
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