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> Bipods, tripods and aiming my rifle, A possible house rule for RC and aiming
Eryk the Red
post Oct 15 2007, 05:52 PM
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I've been thinking about how there's no reason to do anything to steady a rifle in rules terms, and how I don't like that. I mean, if the rifle shoots bursts, bipods are nice, but there's no real reason to use anything that stabilizes a weapon if you're firing single shots.

I like the image of a sniper using a bipod or tripod, lining up a shot.

So I thought, you could give a benefit for having more recoil compensation than you need.

So here's the idea: RC that comes from a piece of equipment that helps keep a gun steady (bipod, tripod, gyro harness) can instead be used to increase the number of take aim actions you can take with the weapon, at a 1:1 ratio. RC sources like gas-vents cannot be used this way, since they only take effect while the weapon is being shot.

So a single shot rifle (or assault cannon, even), with a tripod (RC 3, I think, I don't have my book on hand), would be able to benefit from 6 total Take Aim actions, for +6 dice (after a long time aiming).

Does this seem like a fair idea? Does it even make any sense?
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Tarantula
post Oct 15 2007, 06:05 PM
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Tripod is RC 6. A bit overpowered, I think.
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Orient
post Oct 15 2007, 06:08 PM
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Except a gun that's firmly planted in the ground, or attached to a gyro system, just isn't going to jump around as much when you fire it - regardless of the time you spent aiming.
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Eryk the Red
post Oct 15 2007, 06:08 PM
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Yeah, a bit overpowered. Maybe 1 for every two points of RC used this way? That way it's not as efficient in dice terms as actually reducing recoil.
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Eryk the Red
post Oct 15 2007, 06:10 PM
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The idea I was going for is that these devices help keep the gun steady while aiming, thus making it easier to benefit from that kind of focused aiming.
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Orient
post Oct 15 2007, 06:11 PM
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From a purely game-balance perspective, I'd be hesitant to give tons of extra bonuses to sniper-style attacks. A sniper's target will generally have (at the very least) a substantial penalty to their Reaction/Dodge roll, so those types of attacks are pretty powerful already.
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Riley37
post Oct 15 2007, 08:07 PM
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I'm all for some optional extra rules that distinguish between the firing stances of a) running and dodging as per an action movie, getting full Reaction vs. melee attacks; b) standing still as per firing range, or archery range; c) prone or kneeling/sitting with elbows resting on a stable surface.
I interpret a) as default; b) houseruled as +1 RC and +1 max Take Aim; c) +2 RC, +2 Take Aim, or +3 with bipod or tripod; I doubt that tripod adds substantially more benefit than bipod for setting up a sniper shot. I dunno about gyro-mount; I interpret it as only offsetting penalties, but not as enabling *more* stability than firing range stance.

The huge advantages of setting up a sniper shot can be a reward for managing to figure out where your target will be, finding a concealable firing position, and patience, all of which require good PC thinking, skill use, and/or roleplaying, so I don't mind making snipers uber-effective. On another hand, it makes the GM option of "Mr. Johnson has arranged for a sniper to get into position before the meet" an even more fearsome incentive for "this is a roleplaying-only encounter; if you start trouble, you'll probably die before your gun clears the holster".
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Eryk the Red
post Oct 15 2007, 08:38 PM
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Yeah. Stylistically, my campaign has emphasized the deadliness of a sniper. A shooter that you don't know about can kill you. Period. No players have died from sniper attacks, but it keeps them on their toes.
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Falconer
post Oct 15 2007, 11:07 PM
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Problem is all 3 of those are largely different sources of recoil compensation. I'll explain how I'd treat each case beyond simple recoil compensation as a GM. I'm tailoring these towards better realism.

As I stated in the other thread... I think a better way to handle it is to simply allow the bipod to enhance your ability to take aim faster. That is, instead of increasing the maximum bonus from take aim absolutely, instead of +1 per take aim action, up it to a +2 per take aim action. That should only apply if you don't need to move though while taking aim, as soon as you need to radically change your shooting position. The benefit of the bipod is that the weapon is extremely stable because you're not holding it, which allows you to aim faster, since you don't have the sights doing a figure 8 over the target constantly (anyone else who's shot extensively at extreme ranges should know exactly what I'm talking about). In game terms, that translates to one well-aimed shot every IP, as opposed to one every 2 or 3 IP's. It doesn't even have to be a bipod... it could be resting the gun on sandbags benchrest style. The point is rather than holding the gun, you're resting it on something extremely stable and you've spent time preparing and simple actions getting yourself into a more stable firing position (w/ attendant drawbacks at short range!). For a sniper w/ only 1 or 2 IP's before the target is back in cover though this makes a big deal (EG getting out of a car and going indoors while under security).

I've never seen anyone snipe w/ a tripod... tripods are only used to stabilize a heavy machine gun for sustained extreme range fully automatic fire, and adjusting their point of aim is/was literraly banging the gun left or right, not just gently pushing it one way or another. Hardly the kind of thing you'd use for find adjustment of point of aim. In fact, by definition, a tripod mounted machine gun is either a MMG or a HMG. Basically the sheer weight and rigidity of the tripod mount, means that the recoil of full auto fire does less to mess with the guns point of aim and really does justify the -6 recoil compensation for fully automatic fire. (I'd have issues with anyone outside of a really strong PC even trying to tote around a weapon w/ tripod attached, and give them large negative mods for trying to fire it undeployed!). The only other reason I've seen a tripod used is because physically holding and bracing the weapon against your body would result in broken bones and some serious bruising. Tripods also have a problem, that in many cases short of physically picking up and moving the wepaon tripod and all, it's hard to turn the weapon over large arcs... meaning that they have a clear 'facing' and are unsuited to close range combat.

A gyro-mount is more of a motion compensation system. If the motion comes from recoil that's one use (in which case it's recoil compensation). But per the rules (no house ruling needed). It also eliminates the shooter is moving penalty (shooter is running/in moving vehicle). -5 or -6 in compensation is pretty damn good considering that's offsettting 2-3 points of motion alone in that case. I don't think it really needs anything more than that. If your sniper is in a helicopter or some kind of a drive-by sniping attack... it already makes a ton of sense. There's no reason to add anything more than that.

The problem where it falls apart in the shadowrun rules is the range tables and modifiers are a complete joke. If it's only a -3 dice pool penalty for extreme range, a scope completely offsets that w/ a single take aim action... then you can still take aim normally for +1-4 more (2,4,6 +2spec proficiency). Extreme range only being 800m for a sporting rifle, or 1500m for a target rifle. Your suggestion just adds a ludicrous amount of more dice. Shadowrun is basically far far far too easy on longrange/extreme range shots. Throw on top of that there is no range penalties on Dam and AP like there are w/ real weapons. All it would take is -1DR/+1AP penalty per range bracket which would go a long way towards cleaning up extreme range problems.

Not even twinking it out. 5 Agi, 4+2spec in your rifle, no range penalty, +3 take aim, +2 smartgun == 16 dice at a mile away!!!! (and I can still easily add another 4 agi, 2prof, and an extra +1 take aim; giving 23 dice if I really twink it out). Now considering at that range you're probably dealing with a completely unaware target so no dodge dice, straight reaction roll. Hell w/ that many dice I probably do a called shot as well to bypass or reduce armor. Use an explosive round so it can't be traced (if the bullets blown up, it's hard to match ballistics to the barrel!) (ex-ex doesn't help much since it was errataed to only be +1Dam, +1AP, and basic explosive to be +1 dam only). If I start at 7P(+1 ex or ex-ex), buy 4 successes w/ 16 dice, bypass or hit the reduced armor w/ the remaining -1 to -4 of AP, that's 11P resisted purely w/ body. Now if I can add +6 more from aiming w/ a tripod... we're getting pretty silly.

The first hit if it doesn't kill is a guaranteed knockdown in a surprise round. Assuming 4 IP's/round from magic or gear. Second shot, just a fast take aim to eliminate range, fire in a single IP. If the first shot didn't knock you into overflow damage, the second one surely will and probably be absolutely dead. If both sides spend edge...
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mfb
post Oct 16 2007, 02:32 AM
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i would make this a special property of bipods and tripods, because they allow you to create a stable firing position. a gas vent doesn't necessarily do that, and a gyro-mount certainly doesn't--you can't aim all that well when you're firing from the hip.

i like Falconer's idea about increasing the rate the aim bonus accrues. another possibility would be to allow a shooter aiming with a bipod or tripod to take certain free actions without breaking his aim--speaking, calling a shot, changing fire mode, maybe some others.
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Crusher Bob
post Oct 16 2007, 04:26 AM
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QUOTE (Falconer)
...
I've never seen anyone snipe w/ a tripod... tripods are only used to stabilize a heavy machine gun [...]

When the M2 was used as a sniper weapon, the rock steady tripod is what made it possible.
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Tarantula
post Oct 16 2007, 04:45 AM
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QUOTE (Falconer)
Not even twinking it out. 5 Agi, 4+2spec in your rifle, no range penalty, +3 take aim, +2 smartgun == 16 dice at a mile away!!!! (and I can still easily add another 4 agi, 2prof, and an extra +1 take aim; giving 23 dice if I really twink it out). Now considering at that range you're probably dealing with a completely unaware target so no dodge dice, straight reaction roll. Hell w/ that many dice I probably do a called shot as well to bypass or reduce armor. Use an explosive round so it can't be traced (if the bullets blown up, it's hard to match ballistics to the barrel!) (ex-ex doesn't help much since it was errataed to only be +1Dam, +1AP, and basic explosive to be +1 dam only). If I start at 7P(+1 ex or ex-ex), buy 4 successes w/ 16 dice, bypass or hit the reduced armor w/ the remaining -1 to -4 of AP, that's 11P resisted purely w/ body. Now if I can add +6 more from aiming w/ a tripod... we're getting pretty silly.

The first hit if it doesn't kill is a guaranteed knockdown in a surprise round. Assuming 4 IP's/round from magic or gear. Second shot, just a fast take aim to eliminate range, fire in a single IP. If the first shot didn't knock you into overflow damage, the second one surely will and probably be absolutely dead. If both sides spend edge...

Actually, see Brick my troll thread. Not only would he live through the shot, it'd likely be converted down only to stun, as well as activating his adrenaline pump. (15 ballistic armor, -4 ap = 11). Resisted with armor and body would be 24 dice, buying 6 hits, he takes 5 stun. Shoot him again, sure, you'll probably beat his initiative still, he takes another 5 stun, and runs inside.
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FriendoftheDork
post Oct 16 2007, 08:47 AM
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QUOTE (Falconer)
Now considering at that range you're probably dealing with a completely unaware target so no dodge dice, straight reaction roll. ...

Actually I believe that totally suprised characters doesen't recieve even a reaction roll.

However, they do get a suprise test to be a ble to react to the shot, but since the sniper gets +6 dice for ambushing, only street sammies and adepts (and possibly spelled up mages) with insane reaction has a chance to dodge anyway.

Otherwise I agree with most of your points, although I don't think I need to give more bonuses to long range fire, it's already good enough as it is (or too good even).
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Mercer
post Oct 16 2007, 09:06 AM
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It would seem like the benefit you get from a bipod is that it helps to hold the rifle steady while you are aiming it, which isn't that much different from supporting the rifle on a sandbag. The other thing is that bipods typically attach to the barrel, and things that attach to the barrel tend to affect accuracy. But the thing you're looking for is a stable firing position, and that seems like something you'd be doing already when you were aiming.

I'd see dice penalties when you didn't have a stable firing position to be more in line with bonuses when you did, since it seems like the system assumes part of the Take Aim action is making sure you're stable, pointed at the target, and finding your zen.

I also agree long range shooting should be harder. Back in SR3, instead of having the rating of the scope take off range categories I had it reduce the TN; at Extreme Range (TN 9) with a Mag 3 Scope, the TN was 6 or 4 with a smartlink. And I toyed with the idea of reducing Power Level for range but honestly, it just seemed like one more thing to forget in the heat of the imaginary battle. My inner perfectionist simulationist would love tons of firearms rules, but at the table faster, simpler Action Movie ballistics wins out. (This goes back to my Axis of Game Design where simple rules are fast and vague and complex rules are slow and exact.)
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Cweord
post Oct 16 2007, 12:21 PM
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I deal with this a simple way, I have a nasty house rule that turn range modifiers from removing dice to threshold (makes it a lot harder at long ranges)

as for the bipod, I would say it adds 20% to the weapons range when aiming. On moving targets it will be more of a hindrance than help due to the amount you would have to move with it, hence the aiming necessity. Quick and easy, I do something similar with a shoulder stock but then I have completely re written ranges for my games and have them based by weapon rather than weapon type.
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Ed_209a
post Oct 16 2007, 01:07 PM
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QUOTE (Falconer)
I've never seen anyone snipe w/ a tripod... tripods are only used to stabilize a heavy machine gun for sustained extreme range fully automatic fire, and adjusting their point of aim is/was literally banging the gun left or right, not just gently pushing it one way or another.  Hardly the kind of thing you'd use for find adjustment of point of aim. 

All tripods I have worked with had a mechanism to very precisely adjust the aim of the weapon. It is called a T&E (Traverse & Elevation) mechanism.

A machinegun on a tripod with a T&E can almost be thought of as a tiny artillery piece, since you can adjust fire against targets you cannot see. You will also have a longer effective range compared to firing from a bipod.

Using a T&E is a lot slower than firing normally, however.

Regarding sniping, if you can afford the weight and bulk, sniping from a tripod is the best way to do it. Snipers just rarely can afford it.

The hardest part of long-range marksmanship is keeping the weapon on target while you pull the trigger. You want the weapon to stay motionless while you are tugging on part of it. And you have to breathe, so that is more motion you have to control. Mounting a rifle on a tripod eliminates most of these problems.
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Eryk the Red
post Oct 16 2007, 03:10 PM
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Heh. So the answers are "Yes", "No", and "Don't make snipers scarier!"

I probably won't actually implement it, if only because I've avoided adding new house rules for a while now. Maybe if I started a new campaign, I'd use some version of this.

(Side note: Another reason I liked the idea of this rule is that it makes variable the completely arbitrary limit of 3 Take Aim actions. There needs to be a limit for game balance, but it just seems wrong to have it hard capped with no variation at all.)
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Wounded Ronin
post Oct 16 2007, 11:31 PM
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Clearly what SR needs is a "steady breathing" key. Uh, I mean, action.
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Falconer
post Oct 17 2007, 12:55 AM
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Tarantula: I'll put a reply in your thread, as OBVIOUSLY the comment was aimed at your typical everyday Srunner (your troll is less than .01% of the runner population as it's completely pointless as anything except a bullet magnet, but there's no reason to shoot it when there's other targets available!). For your typical Srunner w/ say 6 to 10 points of armor, and 3-8 body... two shots would be fatal.


Ed_209: I'm aware of the traverse and elevation. And I did make a big mistake there (re: vietnam).

I've only ever seen it used in actual practice w/ the grenade launcher for aiming. Then again, I've never been close to a M2 firing at long range. I've only ever fired the light-50 (barrett) at long range. I did some quick searches and found the references to it being used in vietnam era (when I'll point out the light-50 wasn't developed yet). It illustrated the need for a LARGE bore anti-materiel weapon and one was developed by the early 80's.

Put simply, the ma deuce w/ it's butterly triggers is not going to be easily aimable and firable at the same time. Unless the target thinks it's safe and is just standing still for a long while. Given what you know of SRun... what kind of an action would you say it takes to make very fine aim adjustments using the screws? You're not going to be shooting in the same action you do so and it's not going to be as rapid as aiming w/ a bipod and shoulder stock.

Though for SRun purposes an interesting piece of kit might be a motorized tripod. Especially if it's the kind of thing you could setup in advance, have your decker/rigger jump into to aim and fire remotely when a drone isn't an option. An expendable asset of sorts. That's practically a drone though, when I started writing the paragraph it was more of an electro-mechanical aiming aid for large weapons. (basically as manual action single shot is to semi-auto, old fashioned T&E is to gizmo)


Explanation for those unfamiliar and fun conversation:
In vietnam evidently they were used in single shot mode for perimeter protection from elevated fixed positions. Evidently, it was used w/ starlight scopes at the extreme ranges of the perimeter to off stationary targets. But I'd argue that this is more of a 'happy accident' than because the situation was optimal for sniping. With the bolt locked the M2 turns into a single shot manual action rifle. It was the only gun available in this configuration firing a bullet larger than a 30calibre with a high muzzle velocity necessary for beyond infantry rifle range. Also conjecturaly on my part, this would probably require the armorer to put a new barrel on the gun... machine guns fired on full auto are not known for having unworn barrels and single shot accuracy.

For those who might have better recall than myself, IIRC reading Hathcock's account involved preaiming the M2 through the side of a shed. Then timing his shot so he fired as the target was walking behind the shed and shot her through it. IIRC it was so that she couldn't see the muzzle flash and therefor wouldn't react to a bright flash and stop moving at a steady pace (bullet fight times at this range being measured in seconds... not ms... seconds). The bullet being supersonic she wouldn't see the flash and the report wouldn't reach her before the bullet did.

Hathcock is definately a 7 rank in both edge and longarms in my book :). Please correct me if I got any of the details wrong... as I'd much rather have it straight.

I still hold the primary usage of a tripod is to hold weapons too large/heavy to be shouldered, and to better control the recoil of those that can. It's like asking for indirect fire rules for machine guns. For those who don't know, little known fact is you can fire a machine gun for miles indirectly for area saturation fire. But it hastn't been accepted practice to do so since WWI.

How does this apply to modern/future firearms... It's not uncommon now to see something called a monopod affixed underneath the pistol grip portion of the rear stock. Between the bipod up front, and the monopod in back, you end up w/ a very lightweight tripod arrangement. The way it works is you don't hold the gun, you let the gun rest, then gently nudge it left/right, or adjust the elevation on the back screw, until it's sitting on it's legs exactly where you want it fired. Then you pull the trigger. (the goal is to completely remove the shooters body and sway to maximize long range precision). It's a trick you'd only see at extreme range or at shorter range to fire benchrest groups. Oftentimes a small sand sock/bag or similar will be substituted for the rear screw supporting the rear stock.
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Jaid
post Oct 17 2007, 01:07 AM
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QUOTE (Falconer)
Though for SRun purposes an interesting piece of kit might be a motorized tripod. Especially if it's the kind of thing you could setup in advance, have your decker/rigger jump into to aim and fire remotely when a drone isn't an option. An expendable asset of sorts. That's practically a drone though, when I started writing the paragraph it was more of an electro-mechanical aiming aid for large weapons. (basically as manual action single shot is to semi-auto, old fashioned T&E is to gizmo)

SR4 has that piece of equipment. it's called a smart firing platform.

and as a matter of fact, the rules for it are basically "treat it like a drone that doesn't have any ability to move around"
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Eryk the Red
post Oct 17 2007, 02:23 PM
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Amusingly, by the nature of Shadowrun, the more mechanical/electronic you make something, the less reason there is for a human to be anywhere near it.

A smart, motorized tripod is a good idea, because it holds and keeps steady the gun, and moves it into position, and doesn't sway because of breathing or unsteadiness of hands. But adding a smartlink means you don't need a human there at all, since firing it doesn't even require a finger on the trigger.

I think that's sort of interesting.
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