 HMHVV and You, Apparently Ghouls aren't contagious |
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 Oct 18 2007, 09:34 PM
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#26
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046  |
@ Stahlseele: True, but they will pay double essence for the fixes, and had already lost a point of essence to start with. (I guess this means that any street sam with < 1.0 essence before infection will automatically die after expression.)
@ hyzmarca: By the fluff, Wendigos might not have to kill, but they like to kill, and probably will whenever given a chance. As far as being fun, I thought the fluff was that essence transfer only required powerful emotions (lust, ecstacy, fear, horror, etc.). They say that vamps can cause addition to their bite, but I don't remember hearing that it applied to all metavarients, or that it even had to apply to vamps unless they willed it so. |
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Oct 18 2007, 09:35 PM
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#27
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
GAME mechanically sure . . but in the Fluff it says, that Wendigos have to eat human flesh if i remember correctly . . it also says that vampires need to SUCK YOURR BLODD! to get their fill of essence . . but with vampires and certain other essence-drainers there's the possibillity to actually getting addicted to having your essence drained . . banshee for exampe (elves with HMHVV) don't need to eat/drink anything . . they get their kick out of making people have extreme emotions. . mostly the bad ones of course, like fear, hate, anger, pain, because those are the most easy to get out of someone just by hurting them . . they don't need to kill someone or anything . . just keep someone as a prisoner and torture them regularly for some minutes/hours and they basically have live stock to feed off . .
so? <1 essene chars die every time they get hit by SOMETHING that affects their essence, as there is NOTHING that takes away less than 1 point of essence when successfull . . only cyber can take a fraction of a point of essence . . and ghouls only pay double essence for the eyes, they have SENSITIVE SYSTEM which doubles ESSENCE LOSS . . nothing there that affects bio-index cost, if there was no errata i am missing right now *g* basically a dwarven ghoul magical adept would be pretty much the ultimate thing . . but actually getting a dwarf to a be infected(mind you, +3 body dice for resisting and +1 dice for willpower) is a hard thing *g* hmm, i got to thinking about the dwarf/ghoul/adept . . if it is just physically blindness, why should one have to get CYBER eyes? why not just have the damaged part of his eyes be repaired? so he regains natural vision . . natural infra red vision to be precise and with that one edge natural low light too . . add to that astral sight, then add adept powers that make your eyes even better and a light system and you can basically see everything . . anyone feel like discussing this concept with me, feel free to join, as i am about to start the thread in SR3, because i don't play SR4 *g* |
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Oct 18 2007, 10:23 PM
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#28
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Wendios must eat your flesh. People have a great deal of flesh that they never do anything with. Did you know that you can regrow half of your liver? You can. Live liver transplants are very common for this reason. They just open you up, cut your liver and half, and give half of your liver to someone else. Your liver is whole again in six weeks. You can, seriously, donate your liver six times a year if you wanted to. And you could save 6 lives every year by doing so. You don't, of course, but you could. Wendigos only need a token amount of flesh. Half of a liver if more than enough. A single strip of skin from the upper arm will do. If cut carefully and properly bandaged, there won't even be a visible scar. Vampires, likewise, need blood. So does the Red Cross. The Red Cross doesn't kill people to get it. Essence Drain always causes addictive ecstasy. There is a Willpower (2) test to resist addiction. Only characters with maxed willpower can reliably resist addiction. |
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Oct 18 2007, 10:28 PM
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#29
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
Problem with this i'd say is the will-power of the HMHVV-Guy doing the draining . . if it tastes this fucking good and does mean you get to live another year or so then heck, why should you stop?
Willpower(TWO)? if you don't need at least 4 successes why should only people with maxed willpower make this saving throw? ok, wound-modifiers for example *g* |
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Oct 19 2007, 12:34 AM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 268 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Brisbane, Australia Member No.: 78 |
He said reliably. On average, 1 in 3 dice will come up successes. So, to reliably get 2 successes, you need 6 dice. Of course, you can get 2 successes with less dice, but with much less reliability. Most times you won't get 2 successes on 4 dice for example, even though it's technically possible |
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Oct 19 2007, 06:18 AM
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#31
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Technically it is possibl for there to somewhere be a responsible wendigo. Heck, you could have a Wendigo cybertechnician who ate body parts he was removing anyway and installed devices in the holes. With his tremendous magical powers, there's no reason for anyone to know he was a wendigo (or even an ork). But that would be extremely atypical wendigo behavior. Let's recap the description:
While technically a wendigo has the same dietary requirement limitation as a ghoul does (and thus only needs more human flesh because it personally is much more massive than a typical ghoul); in practice typical wendigo behavior involves not "taking a bite out of dudes occassionally" but "inducing victims to partake in canibalistic feasts" and eventually have its victims "become" its meals. Canibalistic feasts implies, at least to me, that we are talking "Blood Diner" or "Parents" and not Communion. -Frank |
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Oct 19 2007, 06:24 AM
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#32
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
And now I want to play a wendigo cybertechnician..... Thank you, Frank.
Chris |
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Oct 19 2007, 01:52 PM
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#33
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
I thought wendigos were covered in fur-- I guess the cybertechnician could pass for ork if he got a weekly full-body wax, but being persecuted might be less painful.
As for HMHVV persecution in Asamando, I disagree with Frank's take on it. While wendigo who hunt and kill ghouls might find the well running dry there (much the same as anyone who kills ghouls would), they all have a variation on the same disease, they all are persecuted to varying degrees in most other places in the world, and thematically, they're all hit with the same stick. Even if they disallowed wendigo (and given that wendigos were based on cannibal spirits who corrupted people to eat human flesh, and ghouls were corrupted beforehand, wendigo might not like HMHVV-infected flesh), they're are still formorians, dzoo-noo-qua, vampires, banshees, nosferatu, and goblins, as well as my personal favorite, the bandersnatch, and whomever else got added to the list since I stopped paying close attention. Of that list, the bandersnatchi would probably be the least likely to get a tourist visa, but I like invisible vampiric sasquatches, so I'd probably figure out a way to include them. For me, what I liked best about Asamando when I was running my SR Africa game was the odd concept of ghoul statesmen. You take what is usually one step removed from a wandering monster in a lot of games, and you give them a corner of the world they are trying to make their homeland. Thematically, from that persepective, it made sense for them to accept vampires and the other HMHVV-infected people (even the loup-garou, even if they considered them charity cases) because there was more that united them than divided them, and they were hated by a lot of the same people. Ghouls still remained the vast majority of the people, but it was a place where any HMHVV could come and be free from the persecution that was associated with their disease. Asamando (still not checking the spelling), oddly, was not the worst place profiled in Cyberpirates, a book which-- the caribbean chapter aside-- I thought really set the bar for dystopian settings in the Shadowrun world. The ghouls could pursue a jihad against vampires or whoever else they wanted, but since there were probably relatively few there when they took over and fewer still turning up to get killed, it wouldn't make much difference. Or, they could open their diseased hearts to any and all who shared their affliction, so that they too could live in a place free of the prejudice and persecution. Asamando (in my game) was a place where ghouls didn't have to be monsters, they could just be people. Your mileage may vary. |
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Oct 19 2007, 02:10 PM
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#34
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
Dzoo-noo-qua aren't believed to be sapient, so I doubt they'd be welcomed (except perhaps as pets). |
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Oct 19 2007, 02:55 PM
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#35
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I have always thought (inspired by the first novel trilogy) that Wendigos 'wolf out' when they do their big evil bit, but at other times appear normal. |
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Oct 19 2007, 03:08 PM
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#36
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
However, they are all magicians.
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Oct 19 2007, 03:11 PM
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#37
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Wendigo look like huge orks covered in white shag.
However they are all capable of using magic and many of them can wrap themselves in Illusions to bypass the looks of horror from crowds. All of them have mind control powers and can force individual people to find it totally normal and reasonable that there is a huge hairy man ripping some little girl in half and offering them gobbets of the tastier organs. Ghoulism is not a minor variation on other kinds of vampirism. It is structurally fundamentally completely different. Ghouls change from human to Ghoul without going through an intermediate stage of dying. Saying that a Ghoul is like a Wendigo is like saying that an Adept is like an Insect Spirit because they both have magically increased strength. Ghouls are scavengers. They eat the bodies of the dead. It's gross, but it's not specifically harmful. Vampires are the risen corpses of the dead who prowl the night as predators hunting the humans that they used to be. One of the first steps to Ghoul acceptance is the dispelling of the illusion that HMHVV is "all the same" and that vampires and ghouls are alike in any way at all. They aren't. Ghouls don't consume Essence. Ghouls never died in order to become the way they are. Ghouls are capable of having children. These children in turn can be Ghouls whether or not they carry the virus. Ghouls don't eat the living. There is a virus which some Ghouls have which, if it infects you may or may not cause you to turn into a ghoul. There are ghouls who don't have this virus and non-ghouls who have the virus. Every single Vampire has a specific virus. If that virus is removed, the vampire is dead. A vampire can only pass this virus to a non vampire by killing that person, and then if it takes a new vampire is created out of the corpse. Vampires of all types are the worst thing for Ghouls. They give ghouls a bad name internationally, they confuse the very real issues of ghoul rights, and periodically they create the ghoul's only natural enemy. If I was a ghoul and the head of state allowed vampires into Lagos under any auspices, I would meat cleaver that head of state and demand a recount. -Frank |
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Oct 19 2007, 03:20 PM
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#38
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Yeah well, senility and all. It's been a while. :D |
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Oct 19 2007, 03:29 PM
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#39
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
Does anybody have the SR3 Companion rules for infecting PCs with ghoul strain HMHVV? I don't have it with me now, but I remember thinking at the time that the chances of significant mental stat loss was pretty harsh. Aren't both the benifits and the drawbacks somewhat variable depending on how the PC rolls?
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Oct 19 2007, 03:40 PM
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#40
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
The SR3 Companion rules are widely disliked on the grounds that the ghouls generated by those charts do not even vaguely resemble the NPC ghouls found in 2st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th edition. The table involves making a Willpower test and then comparing the results to a chart to determine how much your Int and Charisma drop. They may not drop at all. On the other hand, your physical stats never ever go up as much as the physical stats of every single NPC who transforms into a Ghoul, so it made a lot of people froth in rage. -Frank |
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Oct 19 2007, 04:20 PM
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#41
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Of course, take all qualifiers (such as "widely", "lot of", etc.) with a grain of salt in any internet conversation.
Experts say that 99% of all statistics are made up. |
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Oct 19 2007, 08:31 PM
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#42
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
In this case it's pretty true though. :D |
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Oct 19 2007, 09:02 PM
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#43
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
ahem, in the AGS Troll-Kingdom-Schwarzwald they actually are regarded as a usual citizen . . even if they are looked at with a little bit of unease and a watchfull eye . . |
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Oct 19 2007, 10:03 PM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
In the last campaign I was in, we had a player character get infected on his first mission. As the GM, I was going to have mercy on him and fudge some dice rolls until we saw that it actually made him really badass. He rolled pretty well on the chart, and so he took just a little hit to mental stats (I think it was just a -1 CHA?). In the meantime, being a ghoul shaman that had been geared toward close combat made him really awesome. He was all set to start swinging around his weapon focus axe, and get the necessary spells to hide his ghoulness. Unfortunately, the player just wasn't able to make it after that. We just used his character as an NPC from then on, sort of an awesome security device ("you don't want to break in THERE, bro. Those dudes have a ghoul shaman with a combat axe living in the basement..."). Added slightly to the upkeep when the runners had to provide fresh corpses every now and then (we were under the impression it took WAY more than 90 lbs. a year to keep a ghoul fed). Since then, the player that ran the shaman has really really been wanting to recreate the character, but hasn't had the chance since you really can't make a character that badass at generation. I'm in a 4th ed. group with the guy now, and he's playing a shaman, but I'm not sure it would turn out the same...
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Oct 19 2007, 11:20 PM
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#45
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
Well, the only thing for it is for you and I to run for president of the ghoul nation; you as a isolationist, I as a inclusionist, and we let the voters decide. Also, I think that ghouls already have a bad name internationally ("ghoul" is itself a derogatory term), and the issues of ghoul rights are the same as those of the vamps-- how do you live when the whole world calls you a monster? I get what you're saying, that ghouls and vamps (I'll just use "vamps" as a blanket term for all the Ess Drain HMHVVers) have fundamentally different expressions of the same virus, but I'm sayng its still the same virus. If one of each were getting lynched by some of the less enlightened people in the world (which the fluff says is the vast majority), I doubt the ghoul would have much luck explaining that the vamp drains life and he eats dead bodies and therefore they're completely different and he should be let go. Plus, I am operating on the assumption that there are a lot fewer vamps than there are ghouls, and fewer still who are actually going to show up in Asamando. So its not like the ghoul nation is accepting client states of vamps, but rather individuals. Individuals who may have personal wealth or magical powers (vamps tend to be in a better tax bracket as well as powerful magicians), and since Asamando is surrounded by hostile neighbors and stands little chance of forging strong diplomatic ties to the outside world, it seems like they'd want as many people (using the term loosely) as possible on their side. I mean, yeah, at this point we're arguing which course of action imaginary groups of people in a fictional setting would take, so there's plenty of room for a difference of opinion. Including vamps in Asamando worked best for me when I was running my SR Africa game; like I say, YMMV. I'll also point out-- in the interest of full disclosure, to recognize a possible bias-- that even though I'm not a big vampire person (I don't wear black eyeliner or read Anne Rice or things of that nature), I have run several SR games that included vamps in significant ways. I have in fact run more vampire-related Shadowrun games than Vampire games (if only because I ran three vampire games longer than one-shots, and those three really didn't have that many vampires in them). So it was perhaps a foregone conclusion that I would stick vamps in my Africa game, and Asamando was one of the places I stuck them. |
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Oct 20 2007, 06:54 AM
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#46
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
and they vote both of you as dinner *g* |
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Oct 20 2007, 11:53 AM
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#47
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
Well, I will say that its possible that politics and cannibalism are redundant.
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