 Wards, How Prevalent are they? |
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 Nov 2 2007, 04:24 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 689 Joined: 16-September 03 From: Colorado Member No.: 5,623  |
All the fluff I have read in the rule books and novels say that magic is a rare commodity. One in something like a hundred thousand (?) individuals has some form of magic I think was the ratio mentioned. So outside of major corporations and government buildings how common should wards really be?
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Nov 2 2007, 04:30 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 7-October 07 Member No.: 13,604 |
With the amount that the mages in my game like to pop astral and spy on everything and their sister, ruining the game for all the mundies playing, pretty damn common. Any restaurant or bar that's at all upscale and promises privacy will have wards, guardian spirits (who double as beautiful astral greeters) and any number of magical defenses to prevent scrying and astral spying.
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Nov 2 2007, 04:51 PM
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#3
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Since wards only take a short time to build, they last a long time, and can be created by any astrally perceiving creature (including spirits), a magical security service can provide wards to a large number of clients for a fairly low price. In other words, wards are everywhere a mundane security system exists. A simple rule of thumb is the higher the rating of the security system, the higher the rating of the ward.
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Nov 2 2007, 04:52 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 689 Joined: 16-September 03 From: Colorado Member No.: 5,623 |
See thats my problem too. In response to rampent astral or clairavoyence use I have been upping the occurance of wards but then my players say I am not adhering to the spirit of the world, yada yada. A single mage can set up a unlimited number of wards as long as he has the materials or so I read the rules. So if this is the case than I could see a few street level magic users making a living putting up wards for every Tom, Dick and Harry. Now the wards would never be that strong but if broken is the mage the only one who would notice? Is it possible for a ward to be set so that when broken it causes an effect mundanes would notice?
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Nov 2 2007, 04:53 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 689 Joined: 16-September 03 From: Colorado Member No.: 5,623 |
Sorry Buster did not see your post. Makes sense and kinda what I was thinking. Still curious if a ward could be set to do something a mundane would notice when it was broken.
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Nov 2 2007, 05:34 PM
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#6
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
No, the caster has to maintain it every few weeks. Given enough wards, at an hour per point, you end up spending all you work hours maintaining wards. When you toss spirits into the mix this changes matters, but you don't want to use random spirits to cast wards that matter, as the spirit getting notified doesn't exactly mean that he'll tell anyone. But if the whole point of a ward across the entrance to a nightclub is just to stop people from walking in with running spells and it's under direct observation then a spirit cast ward is probably fine. |
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Nov 2 2007, 07:30 PM
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#7
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
It's a little more common than that. :D |
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Nov 2 2007, 08:49 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 573 Joined: 17-September 07 Member No.: 13,319 |
BBB p.185 says ¥100 per hour is going rate, and hours = Force.
The warder may use Karma, though, to make the ward permanent. What's the going rate for a point of Karma? that is, for a hiring a mage to spend an hour building a a permanent ward? If you have an object under the influence of a Quickened spell at Force 1, and the spell has effects noticable by mundanes (eg the glow of Armor, or a red marble under an Illusion to look green), then you can use that item to test the ward: if the object passes through and keeps its function, then the ward is down. However, that requires a supply of test objects, which might get expensive... again, depending on what amount of nuyen will persuade a mage to Quicken a spell. |
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Nov 2 2007, 09:23 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 344 Joined: 28-July 03 Member No.: 5,133 |
Granted I'm not yet fully versed with the updated 2070 scene. Fact: Very few people have magic Fact: Mundanes perceptions of magic are usually skewed by media representations. Fact: Magic is powerful. Result: A lot of people who don't have magic, fear it. Just that alone is enough to spawn a MASSIVE ward industry. Someone who has magic, can make a mountain of money perfectly legally just making and maintain wards. selling his karma for permanent wards. Karma is expensive =) All that to say, it's up to the GM obviously but I always put plenty of wards in my worlds cause there would be. There are more rich people than mages, they will defend themselves any way they can. |
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Nov 2 2007, 09:32 PM
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#10
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Keep in mind that it isn't just metahuman spells and their summoned Spirits that would be a concern. All manner of dual natured (and purely Astral) nasties abound. Even things like Shedim, with their exact nature not necessarily common knowledge (and even if it is, in some cases), they would be quite a concern for a lot of people and places.
Hell, in my game gangs like the Merlyns run magic protection rackets, which includes things like sole rights to put up Wards, among (many) other things. |
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Nov 3 2007, 03:03 AM
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#11
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
And they plan to stop KE from setting up a ward exactly how?
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Nov 3 2007, 03:45 AM
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#12
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
By letting KE set up the Ward and then destroying the private business that hired an outsider to do it. Same as any other protection racket. You don't punish the other Ward makers as much as their prospective clientèle.
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Nov 3 2007, 04:34 AM
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#13
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
That's a great way to have your gang's meeting place blow up during a meeting. It's bad for KE's reputation to have people blow up their clients. It's what they are paid to prevent. And killing gang bangers to protect their rep is no big deal. Heck, it's public service they'll do for free.
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Nov 3 2007, 04:39 AM
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#14
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Keep in mind that Knight Errant doesn't usually do the Warding deep in the Barrens, and other places where the gangs hold a lot of sway. Also keep in mind that even Lone Star doesn't venture into the Barrens lightly, and would be even more hesitant to make an open assault against a mafia-backed all-magical gang.
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Nov 3 2007, 04:48 AM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 573 Joined: 17-September 07 Member No.: 13,319 |
Interesting. Presumably, in Fortune's game, KE has learned which protection rackets they can take on and win, and which are unprofitable to challenge. If they offer warding services and no one buys.. and they buy extra ads and offer a promotional discount, and no one buys... then they figure out what's going on, no?
Next step for KE, maybe: "We *guarantee* our F5 wards and if anyone breaks one, we'll renew it and put a spirit watching your business" (implied: and track the astral signature of whoever broke it, and break *them*). If Merlyns then kick KE's ass, and the local KE superviser calls for reinforcements, and KE Central says "no can do": "Act of God clause, sorry, here's your refund." I lack data on what happens IRL in, say, Brooklyn, when legit companies offer security and gangs have protection rackets in the same territory. But last I heard, there are both security companies and gangs in New York City, so it's not a one-side-always-wins situation, eh? I'm still curious about the cost of a permanent one-hour-to-establish ward, compared to a baseline of $100 for a lasts-some-weeks one-hour-to-establish ward. Any estimates, or prices you've seen offered by Merlyns, KE or Wuxing? |
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Nov 3 2007, 04:55 AM
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#16
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
This isn't a fair fight. Late one night, four 2000 lb JDAMs drop through the roof and go off in the middle of their meeting. The expected damage to the attackers at 35,000 feet and 15 miles away is what, and it will be inflicted how?
There is a reason why street scum don't pick fights with a major corp. It's why Shadowrunners who use the blood of aztechnology mage they assassinated to sign their names and "screw aztechnology" on the wall of his lab often have bad things happen to them not to long after that. |
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Nov 3 2007, 05:05 AM
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#17
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Whatever.
I never claimed otherwise. That's kzt's argument. My point is that Magical Protection rackets would world in the same manner as any other protection racket. |
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Nov 3 2007, 05:07 AM
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#18
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Funny, but it seems to happen all the time in Shadowrun. Not to mention the political clout that Mafia backing can bring to the table. Something you seem to be discounting out-of-hand. |
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Nov 3 2007, 05:08 AM
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#19
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,159 Joined: 12-April 07 From: Ork Underground Member No.: 11,440 |
@kzt
Do not forget the follow up JDAM, the one loaded with highly radioactive toxic waste, to leave a reminder about mucking with Corps. :grinbig: WMS |
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Nov 3 2007, 05:57 AM
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#20
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Shadowrunners don't actually pick fights with corps. They're just tools, which is why they're generally safe from prosecution or retaliation. There is no sense in blowing up a rental car that's already been returned to the lot because one of its drivers ran over your dog. |
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Nov 3 2007, 06:38 AM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 573 Joined: 17-September 07 Member No.: 13,319 |
I meant "interesting" in the sense that the boundary between where Merlyns decide they're not gonna push their luck any further, and where KE writes off the loss, could be right where the PCs tip the balance one way or another. Not "interesting" in the sense of "I'm glad Fortune isn't my GM." I *prefer* a game with grey areas. KE and its rivals have limited resources, large but limited, and if getting into a fight with a Barrens mage gang, or some street shaman with fanatic cult followers, is not worth the $1000 that the local Stuffer Shack franchise can pay (at best) for warding, then I see KE as saying "sorry, Stuffer Shack, you're not in our service area". The local KE boss might grit his teeth, and wish to wipe out the Merlyns, and might try, but if he fails, then he's way behind on budget and has nothing to show for it. Nothing that *his* boss will consider worthy of a promotion, that is. If he gets outfoxed and drops four 2000 lb JDAMs on a meeting spot that the Merlyns abandoned yesterday... or even if a street gang *did* lose some leaders... what did those cost KE, and can he possibly make a return on that investment, or did that cost give Lone Star the slight edge that they're always looking for, to take over the local contract? I also see this as where magic is less predictable than mundane firepower. If the Merlyns happen to have a member with fluke high stats and Astral Chameleon, and the local KE mage is a nothing-special wagemage, then KE's gonna have a hard time tracking the signature. If the wagemage *does* track the signature and sees blood magic, she might stop right there, and come out of trance saying "Sorry Boss, trail's unreadable, I got nothing", because she'd rather spend next week putting up wards in the A neighborhood, than start a ritual magic duel with an gang of unknown power... and who knows, maybe the Merlyns pay a cut to the Yakuza and can call in killer kami if things escalate. Against a mundane gang, then sure, KE *knows* they can call in firepower until the locals are outmatched, and pretty much has to, to keep their rep. But if their warding sideline has erratic service areas... well, that's magic. kzt, in another thread, has taken a "when the kid gloves come off, the big boys always win" tack, and I've taken a "mostly, but not always" tack, and perhaps that difference in perspective is parallel here. |
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Nov 3 2007, 07:04 AM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 573 Joined: 17-September 07 Member No.: 13,319 |
In most games, and perhaps in canonical RAW SR, the PCs are mercs who get hired by Ares to raid Renraku this week, and get hired by Renraku to raid Ares next week. But in other games, the PCs might make a point of never working for Aztechnology, and will work cheap for anyone who wants to put a structural hit on Aztechnology. I find the latter more interesting. WJ Williams' "Hardwired" and Gibson's "Count Zero" are classic source material for how I play, and in both of those, a main character gets hired by a corp, and by the end of the book, the corp goes down hard because the main character was a mercenary, but not *only* a mercenary, and happened to come across a tipping point situation. |
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Nov 3 2007, 07:08 AM
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#23
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
But also because they were a mercenary with a badass cyberweasel. Nothing can beat a badass cyberweasel. Except a dikoted cyberweasel, I guess.
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Nov 3 2007, 07:21 AM
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#24
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I never mentioned 'shadowrunners'. I just stated that the concept of the little guy 'street scum' taking on the big guy 'corps' is not uncommon in the Shadowrun setting. It could be anything from eco-terrorism to the rebels in Aztlan and the Tir, to small corps gangs, or organized crime syndicates taking on bigger ones. |
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Nov 3 2007, 07:23 AM
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#25
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Sorry. I was a little touchy, and somewhat scrambled with a few too many things at that time. :) |
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