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Kronk2
post Nov 7 2007, 07:06 AM
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Ok. I have a coconut. I take a old school 35 mil pic of it. I mail it to Al Sharptree. while the snail mail is doing its thing I develop the pic and study its contents closely. I have already learned sympathetic linking ahead of time and know a few fellows who also are steamed at him. The 3 of us get together and start a ritual circle. I create the link to him through the picture, then we proceed to toast his hoop with a Force N fireball. One less annoying politician.


Do I more or less have the right idea here?(not with the assassination of politicians in general but how the power works)

For a more innocent use, I could nail a picture of my keys to my wall, and use a ritual spell to find them.
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Simon May
post Nov 7 2007, 07:29 AM
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Problem 1: Al Sharptree has aids.
If Al Sharptree is a prominent politician, what happens when his secretary opens the package (and you thought I was going to say he had a debilitating disease...)? Does she suddenly become the one linked instead?

Problem 2: Al Sharptree doesn't like coconuts.
If Al Sharptree chooses to toss the coconut into the trash without taking it out of the box cause he doesn't like coconuts, does the coconut link to him?

Problem 3: UCASPS sucks.
Over the course of it's trip through the mail, at least 4-6 people have touched the package. Does the coconut link to them?

-----
1) Yes, at least for a little while. If he gets it after, it'll link to him, but only temporarily.
2) No. It won't link to him unless he touches it.
3) No, unless they open the box and touch it.

Unfortunately, a photo of the coconut won't help since you need the object itself, unless you're using the photo as a symbolic link (requiring metamagic and multiple parts). Regardless, the link only lasts for a few minutes.
QUOTE (Street Magic @ p. 29)
[Recently handled objects] can only be used for a number of minutes equal to twice the target’s Essence.

This means you a) need to know when the package is opened, b) need to make sure its him who picks it up, and c) need to work hella fast. Your better bet is to follow Mr. Sharptree around and grab a burger wrapper or cup that he tosses in the trash or litters.

Even better than trying to send him a coconut and getting it exactly right, grab something important of his. If you can get his comm link, you've got an "oft handled object." If you can grab his wedding ring or favorite tie, you've got a "favored object." Both of these are better for rituals and have longer lasting links. Of course, in all these cases, you'd still need the sympathetic link metamagic.

If you want to spy on him or attack him from afar without that metamagic (gained at initiation if you so choose), you're going to need a piece of him, either a strand of hair, some blood, or another piece of his DNA. Unlike forensics, however, the magic usability deteriorates.
QUOTE (Street Magic @ p. 29)
If the target is a living being, the material link is a tissue sample. Tissue samples have a limited duration as a material link, however, as decomposition eventually renders the sample useless. The amount of time available varies, depending on the size of the sample and external conditions; a bloodstain from a combat scene may only be useful for a few hours, while a severed finger may be useful for several days. Decomposition can be slowed or stalled by refrigeration or a Preserve spell; chemical preservation, however, destroys the sample’s ritual viability.
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GryMor
post Nov 7 2007, 09:02 AM
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Err, I think the idea is to use a symbolic link to the coconut, targeting the coconut with the fireball and catching the real target in the fireballs indirect area.

In other words, this is a magic mail bomb that doesn't show as dangerous until an hour after the start of the ritual. Anything could be used, so long as you can get it into proximity of the target.
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Simon May
post Nov 7 2007, 09:22 AM
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It would still require the sympathetic link metamagic and I'm still not sure a photo could be used.
QUOTE (Street Magic @ 29)
If an initiate with Sympathetic Linking metamagic can’t find a sympathetic link, he may instead create a symbolic link: a picture, sculpture, or doll bearing symbolic likeness to the target. The most notorious example of a symbolic link is the infamous enchanted voodoo doll seen in many horror simflicks. Though symbolic links can work in cases a material link, sympathetic link, or astral spotter won’t, they are more difficult to use.

To create a symbolic link, make an Intuition + Artisan Test with a threshold determined by the Symbolic Link Creation table (p. 27) and an interval of 1 day. The creator’s Initiate Grade serves as a dice pool bonus to this test. Additional modifiers from the Build/Repair Table (p. 125, SR4) may apply, as determined by the gamemaster.

Once an adequate symbolic link has been created, it can be used for ritual spellcasting. Symbolic links inflict a hefty –6 modifier to the Ritual Spellcasting Test. If the creator of the symbolic link is not a participant in the ritual sorcery, an additional –2 modifier applies.

Since a photo is created by chemical processes instead of by the mage, I would suspect it wouldn't fit the bolded section above. In addition, since it takes only moment to make a photo, it would destroy the idea of the interval of days to create a symbolic link.

Regardless, I don't see why you wouldn't just pluck a few hairs off the coconut and use that for a material link to the coconut. Of course, the question of whether those hairs would link to the coconut or to the coconut tree is up to the GM.
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Slump
post Nov 7 2007, 11:56 AM
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QUOTE
create a symbolic link: a picture, sculpture, or doll bearing symbolic likeness to the target.


So what's a picture if not a photo? It seems to me that something painted is even farther removed from the original object than a photo.
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hobgoblin
post Nov 7 2007, 12:19 PM
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a drawing or painting done by the casters own hands, to grab more then just the image of the person ;)

also, can one use indirect combat spells this way at all? would it not go of the moment it his the nearest wall to the caster?
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toturi
post Nov 7 2007, 01:28 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin)
a drawing or painting done by the casters own hands, to grab more then just the image of the person ;)

So is a photograph, only the tools are different. Unless the drawing or painting is a finger painting or drawn with only the artist's hands alone.
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Blade
post Nov 7 2007, 01:35 PM
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Well, if it's really necessary, you can do a sculpture, a painting or a doll of the coconut.
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 7 2007, 03:29 PM
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Draw a circle on a piece of paper that, to you, looks roughly like the coconut.

Nothing says it has to be a masterpiece of artistry, and it works more because it represents that particular coconut to you rather than it actually representing that coconut. Voodoo dolls hardly look like the person they represent, so why would a picture need to?
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Ancient History
post Nov 7 2007, 03:53 PM
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Ah, this reminds of the old reverse ritual sorcery; where the man with the coconut could use it to backtrack the sender with the symbolic representation. Good times, good times.
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Eryk the Red
post Nov 7 2007, 04:00 PM
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The answer is yes. This works. It'd work with Manaball or Powerball or any other area effect spell. The issue is ensuring that the target will have the object near them when the spell goes off. I think a necktie is a better choice than a coconut, myself.
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Blade
post Nov 7 2007, 04:00 PM
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@Doc: Actually you roll an Intuition+Artisan test, so you need to be a good enough artist (or intuitive enough, or edgy enough)
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Tarantula
post Nov 7 2007, 04:07 PM
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Why use symbolic linking at all? Take some hairs from the coconut, and use them as a material link to the coconut to fireball it. That way you don't eat that -6 penalty for symbolic magic.
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Adarael
post Nov 7 2007, 04:51 PM
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Good catch.
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Simon May
post Nov 7 2007, 05:18 PM
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QUOTE (Slump)
So what's a picture if not a photo?  It seems to me that something painted is even farther removed from the original object than a photo.

As a photographer, I'd love to argue the validity of the photograph as a work of art and as representative of the subject. Still, the fact is that even the best photographer is at the mercy of the situation. He may frame the photo, choose the props, pick the subject, and adjust shutter speed, focus, and aperture, but at the end of the day, he's still choosing from the photos he's taken trying to pick the best one. The art, in the end, is a chemical process.

With a drawing or painting, the artists invests himself in the process. To me, it's this investment that creates the symbolic link.
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Why use symbolic linking at all? Take some hairs from the coconut, and use them as a material link to the coconut to fireball it. That way you don't eat that -6 penalty for symbolic magic.

QUOTE (Simon May)
Regardless, I don't see why you wouldn't just pluck a few hairs off the coconut and use that for a material link to the coconut. Of course, the question of whether those hairs would link to the coconut or to the coconut tree is up to the GM.
I'm right with you, Tarantula, but what happens if the material link is to the tree?
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bibliophile20
post Nov 7 2007, 05:29 PM
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QUOTE (Simon May)
QUOTE (Simon May)
Regardless, I don't see why you wouldn't just pluck a few hairs off the coconut and use that for a material link to the coconut. Of course, the question of whether those hairs would link to the coconut or to the coconut tree is up to the GM.
I'm right with you, Tarantula, but what happens if the material link is to the tree?

Then the question is, if a tree bursts into flame on a beach somewhere, and no one is around to see it, is it still magic? :D
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Adarael
post Nov 7 2007, 05:34 PM
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Fundamentally, the mage cannot use a photograph because of the aforementioned day-long interval to 'create a link'. Unless you rule that linking photos take some severe darkroom wackiness. I personally would be fine with that, but I think it goes against the intent of the symbolic link because the mage is not using a tool to create a photograph - it is the tool itself which creates the photograph.

Kinda like the difference between baking bread and throwing all the ingredients in a bread maker, you know?

Either way, the example holds out. If the mage can't take a photo, he can easily make a representation of the coconut using play-doh and cat hair.

And Simon, the hairs won't link to the tree because the hairs grew on the coconut, not on the tree. Although the coconut may provide a link to the tree, I find it unlikely, as the coconut is a separate object for targeting. Same reason I can't use your blood to target your mom - after you left your mom, you became a separate target.
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raphabonelli
post Nov 7 2007, 05:36 PM
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QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Nov 7 2007, 10:29 AM)
Draw a circle on a piece of paper that, to you, looks roughly like the coconut.

And three holes... don't ever forget the three holes.
Every cartoon coconut in history have 3 "bowling ball like" holes on it. :grinbig:

QUOTE
I'm right with you, Tarantula, but what happens if the material link is to the tree?


At least for me the hair if from the coconut, not from the tree. Just as someone hair links to the person, and not to his mother.

Adarael has been faster.

QUOTE
Then the question is, if a tree bursts into flame on a beach somewhere, and no one is around to see it, is it still magic?

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
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Simon May
post Nov 7 2007, 05:41 PM
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Who's still using film in 2070 anyway? By then digital technology will be extremely cheap and extremely good. In addition, we're currently using up the last of the large format film because we don't have the material to keep making it for very long. Film will cease to be produced around the same time that gasoline rises to exorbitant prices.

Of course, this is the 6th world timeline and not ours, so who knows if film is still being produced. Then again, if all cameras are trids at this point, how do you use film to create trid images?
QUOTE (Adarael)
And Simon, the hairs won't link to the tree because the hairs grew on the coconut, not on the tree. Although the coconut may provide a link to the tree, I find it unlikely, as the coconut is a separate object for targeting. Same reason I can't use your blood to target your mom - after you left your mom, you became a separate target.

So pulling a seed from an apple won't link to the apple since it's not the apple? What about a piece of a pinecone linking to a pine tree? Or how about an egg yolk linking back to the chicken? Coconuts have the same genetic material as the palm tree they come from, so I'd assume, much like with a piece of a person's DNA, it would link to the tree.

At least for humor's sake, it would.
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 7 2007, 05:44 PM
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There's a reason they're called symbolic and sympathetic link. DNA has nothing to do with it, only will and desire. If you pluck a hair from a coconut with the intent of it connecting to that coconut, that's what it's going to be good for. Just like if you pluck a hair from the toupe Mr. X is wearing will let you ritually cast against Mr. X, since that's the desired effect.
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raphabonelli
post Nov 7 2007, 05:46 PM
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QUOTE (Simon May)
So pulling a seed from an apple won't link to the apple since it's not the apple? What about a piece of a pinecone linking to a pine tree? Or how about an egg yolk linking back to the chicken? Coconuts have the same genetic material as the palm tree they come from, so I'd assume, much like with a piece of a person's DNA, it would link to the tree.

At least for humor's sake, it would.

At least for me it´s more about "from where you taken that piece". If you take the seed from the apple, it should link to the apple... as a coconut would link to the tree if you take the coconut from it... as the hair taken from the coconut link to the coconut. (And, maybe, a piece of the apple seed taken from the seed would link to the seed, not the apple).
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Tarantula
post Nov 7 2007, 05:56 PM
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Coconuts won't have the same genetic material to their tree any moreso than a baby has the same genetic material to its parents. The DNA isn't the same, and they aren't part of the same living organism. Doc Funk, I disagree on your toupee example. Sadly, if you pluck hair from Mr. X's toupee, and ritually cast a manabolt on it, then one day, Mr. X is in his business meeting, when his toupee suddenly shreds itself and a puff of hair explodes off his head, leaving him disheveled, confused, and bald, but not dead, as his toupee is.
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Simon May
post Nov 7 2007, 06:10 PM
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QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
There's a reason they're called symbolic and sympathetic link. DNA has nothing to do with it, only will and desire.

We're talking material link to the coconut here, not sympathetic or symbolic. The point was to avoid the dice penalty.
QUOTE (Tarantella)
Coconuts won't have the same genetic material to their tree any moreso than a baby has the same genetic material to its parents. The DNA isn't the same, and they aren't part of the same living organism.

Seven alleles in common in the case of babies. Even more when it comes to plant DNA, which often asexually reproduces. That's not enough?
QUOTE (Tarantella)
Doc Funk, I disagree on your toupee example. Sadly, if you pluck hair from Mr. X's toupee, and ritually cast a manabolt on it, then one day, Mr. X is in his business meeting, when his toupee suddenly shreds itself and a puff of hair explodes off his head, leaving him disheveled, confused, and bald, but not dead, as his toupee is.

I'd argue that the toupee counts as an oft handled item. Or, if he's really self conscious, a favored item. Therefore, rather than targeting the toupee, you could use the hair as a symbolic or sympathetic link to him directly. It's even better if the toupee is made from body hair!

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Tarantula
post Nov 7 2007, 06:13 PM
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"That's not enough?"
No, it isn't. Unless you can kidnap a kid, and use him to materially target his mother.

Yes, oft handled/favored, but you choose whether you are casting via material link, or sympathetic link. If you cast via the hair as material link (believing it to be his real hair) then you nuke the toupee. If before the ritual, you find out he has a toupee, and you have toupee hair, then you can do it sympathetically.
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Kronk2
post Nov 8 2007, 08:07 AM
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So could some one else take the picture of the coconut and give it to me to use as the symbolic link?
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