Rigging and Hacking Questions, What do you use for what? Options

[Ghost in the Mac...]

I feel stupid, but I don't grasp what I'm supposed to roll for rigging and hacking. Some specifics:

1) When hacking, when are Attributes important when making a <blank> + <blank> roll? (It seems that most if not all Matrix rolls are Skill + Program, which seems to mean it doesn't make any difference what your Attributes are. Skills like Hacking are listed as Logic-skills, but when do you actually use Logic + Hacking?)

2) When hacking, when are Persona attributes (System, Firewall, etc) important when making a <blank> + <blank> roll? Again, it seems to be Skill + Program. (I do understand these things have non-diceroll values such as how many programs you can run or how far you can transmit your signal.)

3) When rigging, do you use your Reaction to drive a vehicle, or is this also Skill + Program. Or is it Response? And are you using Spoof or Command?

4) Does a rigging Technomancer use Reaction or Intuition for driving a rigged vehicle since it is through the Matrix and TM speeds are Intuition-based? Does Response come into play? Does the Technomancer use the vehicle operation skill, Spoof or Command?

5) How do you use Encrypt to protect your rigging signal. Specifically, if you action is to command/spoof/control the vehicle, is encrypting then a free action? Or something that happens automatically? Or do you set up encryption on your signals during downtime?

-~GitM

[Earlydawn]

1. Indeed, Logic does not play into hacking. Various solutions and modifications have been suggested, including Logic + Hacking capped by the program rating, Program Rating + Hacking capped by Logic, etc.

2. Those are primarily there for their indirect elements. Nothing direct I can think of, beyond any combination that may be called for by a GM substitute for a abnormal situation.

3. If I'm not mistaken, it's Reaction when jumped in, and Pilot for everything else. Specifics elude me at the moment.

4. Abstain. Not sure.

5. Ditto.

[Jaid]

system is used to resist damage. response is used for calculating matrix initiative. firewall is used for defending against matrix attacks iirc.

[Ghost in the Mac...]

Thanks! That answers 1 & 2. Still need more on 3-5, if anyone would be so kind. :oops:

-~GitM

[Riley37]

I imagine that you would use Logic + Hacking when designing a security system - you are not actually running the programs, you are installing them for the optimal balance between security and convenient access. Not a common activity for shadowrunners, although if you took extra time to install a Firewall on your comlink or vehicle, I would allow such a roll to get +1 effective rating if hits exceeded the rating of the Firewall.

The Response rating of the hardware limits the System rating of the OS. The System rating of the OS limits the rating of any programs you run. It's also important on the defending side of the Attack vs OS contest.

For 3, long answer:
I have a different interpretation, based on rules in three different sections (BBB 158ff Vehicle Combat, BBB 220 Controlling Devices, BBB 238-240 Drones) which may be addressed already on other threads. It sure seems to me that each of these levels was considered by at least one writer/editor, but that writers did not have consensus about them.

Level A: You give instructions to the drone/vehicle, often verbally. It interprets those instructions and chooses how to implement them, using its own stats. Example: "Rover 1, drive yourself back to the garage." Rover then uses Pilot stat plus Maneuver autosoft for any crash tests, and uses Pilot stat alone to remember where the garage is. Meanwhile, you can be busy doing other things and give no attention until either "Hey look, Rover's back" or "Hmm, shouldn't Rover be back by now?" - or if you like, you can observe Rover's progress on a screen or an AR display.
p238 "Drones acting on their own use their own Pilot and autosoft ratings for all necessary tests and act on their own initiative" See also BBB 221, Issuing Commands. "Rovers 1 2 and 3, drive yourselves back to the garage" is one Simple Action, and "Rover 4, drive to my location" is a separate Simple Action. Rover's Initiative equals Pilot plus Response, and Rover gets 3 IPs. (I imagine that people usually install a Pilot equal in rating to the Response.)

Level B: You remote-control Rover using some kind of control interface on your hardware (eg the joystick or up-down-left-right buttons on your comlink). You are choosing Rover's path moment-by-moment. Rover's sensors are feeding into a display on your screen or your AR. Kinda like driving a vehicle in a game such as Halo. The rating of your Command program represents the quality of the interface. "Remotely controlling a drone would take a Command + vehicle skill Test" p. 220. I interpret this as the mode also called "Captain's Chair" (page?), and "remotely controlling" by AR p. 159 (no bonus; you get +1 if you use AR while actually sitting in the vehicle's driver seat). Rover acts on your Initiative.

Level C: Jumped in, cold sim.
You see the input from the vehicle sensors directly onto your full field of vision, and you aren't using a joystick anymore; you experience the vehicle as if it were your own body. You get -1 threshold to all piloting tests (p. 159).
If vehicle is destroyed or connection otherwise cut off, dumpshock does Stun damage.
Directly contradicting text on the same page, BBB 239:
"Any tests are made using the rigger's own skills and attributes"
Two sections down:
"When observing through a drone, a rigger rolls Sensor (rather than Intuition) + Perception"

Level D: Jumped in, hot sim. Rigger risks Stun whenever drone is damaged and risks Physical Damage dumpshock if drone is destroyed, per BBB 239 "Jumping Into Drones". Text implies, but does not state, that all jumped-in rigging is hot sim (and thus impossible without hot-sim ASIST module).

As for technomancers... they can jump into a vehicle/drone without the usual ASIST gadgetry, but otherwise, all actions and mechanics should be the same. TMs can use Threading on programs; unclear if autosofts are threadable.

[Cain]

#3. In general, when ordering around a drone, Command is used.

[WearzManySkins]

For Electronic Warfare when dealing hands on with communication you can use Electronic Warfare + Logic.

WMS

[Riley37]

Sending encrypted signals to spoof a drone would be useful only if you're using the same encryption key as the drone's owner - and in that case, it's required.

You don't need a separate action to convert the output of your Command program into ecrypted commands, but Command and Encrypt both add to demand on System/Response if you're running them together.

[Jaid]

very well then.

3) when rigging (by which i mean you are jumped in) the vehicle's response replaces your reaction attribute, as well as any other physical attribute other than body you may need to use technically, except when doing perception tests (you use sensor for that) or matrix tests (you switch back to matrix rules for that, of course). generally speaking, if for some reason you need a strength check, you should probably just use the drone's body.

when remote controlling, you would use command for everything, technically including when you do a sensor test i think... but probably intended to just use it whenever you would have used reaction had you been rigging. you only need command if you wish to control the drone by remote control, it is otherwise not needed, not even for giving orders to a drone to have it follow.

spoof is only used (for rigging) to send fake orders to devices. for example, you could spoof an enemy drone to boot it's rigger, thus delivering a nice side-dish of dumpshock along with the biofeedback from hitting it with tasers ;)

4) technomancers work exactly like riggers in all respects other than such areas as threading up complex forms and other resonance-specific activities. unless you are using resonance abilities (ie sprites or threading) the rules are the same for both. remember, use the vehicle's response, not the technomancer's.

note that due to the way the command CF works, technomancers can do very scary things by threading up command, having a sprite boost it higher, and having a machine sprite analyse the drone you're piloting. i for one highly recommend using remote control as a TM (it also means you can specialise in, for example, the remote control specialisation which exists for all of the main vehicle skills)

5) not particularly specified in the rules. i would assume encrypt is set up in downtime, and you just leave it running as needed. note that encryption is more of a stall tactic then anything else; you can still be hacked, it just adds a little time to the process is all.

[Ghost in the Mac...]

[Ghost in the Mac...]

[Cain]

BBB=Big Black Book

E.g., the Core Rulebook. 8)

[Ryu]

[Ghost in the Mac...]

I'm not finding a table labeled "Standard System Ratings". The only table I can find with any Response ratings is the table specifically for Commlinks. Furthermore, the tables for Vehicles do not list any sort of Response (although they list Handling).

I double-checked Pilot ratings, but Pilot doesn't give a Response rating and a "jumped in" Rigger won't be using the Pilot anyway. As far as I can tell, the standard Eurocar Westwind has no Response, even though it may be riggable and certainly is something that can be remote controlled.

If a rigger uses her own Matrix Initiative for rigging, shouldn't the rigging be based on the rigger's Response?

What am I missing, and where is it?

-~GitM

[Ghost in the Mac...]

So far, the only thing I can find that even suggests what a vehicle's Response rating would be is that the standard vehicle sensor package (pg 325) has a Signal of 5. The only Commlink that has a Signal of 5 is the Fairlight, which also has a Response of 4.

Should I then assume that all vehicles have an inherent Response of 4? (And that drones have inherent lower ratings based on the same logic.)

-~GitM

[Ryu]

P. 213 of the german edition. Don´t know if the page reference is exact. Look for the examples for device ratings. All matrix attributes are supposed to have that rating. Yes, most runners will want to invest here.

[DireRadiant]

SR4 p. 214

Sample Devices Table is what you are looking for.

Rigging Dice Pools

Jumped in
Response + Skill

Remote Control
Command + Skill

Pilot
Either Pilot + Skill
or Skill(Pilot) + Program

[Riley37]

[Jaid]

once again, you need to understand that command is *only* used in one situation, and that one situation is when you remote control your drones.

if you never want to remote control your drones, you don't ever need command. you can still give orders to your drones, and the drones will carry them out, and whether or not you have a command program is completely irrelevant to your ability to give orders and have the drone follow them.

so, like i said, there are 3 methods of controlling drones:

1) jumped-in rigging. you *are* the drone. when you think walk, the drone moves forward. when you think punch, the drone fires a full burst from it's turret-mounted LMG. etc. use response + skill for most dicepools, sensor + perception for perception, and armor + body for damage resist.

2) remote control. like a modern remote controlled plane, which you operate externally, using a radio. think battlebots, robot wars, etc. your basic dice pool is command program + skill for most dicepools, probably *should* be sensor + perception for perception tests, and body + armor for damage resist. this is basically the *only* purpose of the command program.

3) give orders, let the drone do things on it's own. you tell your butler drone to go get you some water, and it goes into the kitchen, pours a glass of water, and brings it back to you. no actions beyond the initial order are required on your part. the dicepool is whatever the drone's dicepool is, which depends on the drone in question. generally pilot or sensor + autosoft rating, with the exception of damage resist (standard armor + body) no command program is required, no skill is required, you just tell it to go do something and it does it.

and btw, while you could certainly just choose not to have a command program, why wouldn't you have one? they're dirt cheap, and not illegal. may as well just buy one just for completeness' sake, so that if you're ever in an automated factory you can remote control the robotics to solder an NPC to the wall rather than relying on the drone's probable 1-3 dice for making an attack with a soldering iron? even if you're defaulting, a rating 6 command program + hotsim = 6 dice.

[Ghost in the Mac...]

So despite all vehicle piloting skills being Reaction skills, Riggers don't really have any need for a high Reaction (any more than other Hackers have need for high Logic).

o-kay.

Now, here's the specific situation I'm looking at:

The party is making their getaway on the 520 super-freeway, pursued by an opposing Shadowrun team. The opposing team's Technomancer, sitting in the safety of a laundromat, rigging-leaps into a random vehicle on the 520 -- a semi-truck which he proceeds to drive into the oncoming traffic lane towards the PC's vehicle.

The Technomancer has a Reaction of 2 and an Intuition of 5. His Matrix Initiative is 11+1d6 with 4 Initiative Passes. He has a Pilot Ground Vehicle skill of 5 and a Command Complex Form of 4. He has a Response of 2.

Based on Sample Devices (pg 214), the semi truck has a Response of 3. It would have a Pilot of 2 or 3, so let's say 2.

So, if I understand correctly, the Technomancer's dice pool for driving the semi is:

Truck Response (3) + Pilot Ground Vehicle (5) + VR Bonus (2) = 10d6
-1 Threshold on all tests.
Initiative of 11+1d6 (4 Passes).


Now if the Technomancer choose instead to merely take control of the vehicle remotely as a Drone:

Command (4) + Pilot Ground Vehicle (5) + VR Bonus (2) = 11d6
No test threshold change.
Initiative is based on Truck Pilot (2) + Truck Response (3)= 5+1d6 (3 Passes).


Is that correct?


-~GitM

[DireRadiant]

[DireRadiant]

[Jaid]

not quite correct. in either situation, the technomancer controls the drone on his own initiative (you've done that in the first, but not the second). otherwise, it looks pretty much right.

although random vehicles on the highway should not just have rigger adaptation, but that's easily just changed to "picking a random vehicle with rigger adaptation on the highway..."

[DireRadiant]

[Cain]

Actually, if it has a Pilot, it's automatically rigger-adapted. I'm too lazy to dig up the page reference right now, but it is right there in the rules. Makes the Rigger Adaptation mod in the gear chapter pretty redundant.