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Ghost in the Machine
I feel stupid, but I don't grasp what I'm supposed to roll for rigging and hacking. Some specifics:

1) When hacking, when are Attributes important when making a <blank> + <blank> roll? (It seems that most if not all Matrix rolls are Skill + Program, which seems to mean it doesn't make any difference what your Attributes are. Skills like Hacking are listed as Logic-skills, but when do you actually use Logic + Hacking?)

2) When hacking, when are Persona attributes (System, Firewall, etc) important when making a <blank> + <blank> roll? Again, it seems to be Skill + Program. (I do understand these things have non-diceroll values such as how many programs you can run or how far you can transmit your signal.)

3) When rigging, do you use your Reaction to drive a vehicle, or is this also Skill + Program. Or is it Response? And are you using Spoof or Command?

4) Does a rigging Technomancer use Reaction or Intuition for driving a rigged vehicle since it is through the Matrix and TM speeds are Intuition-based? Does Response come into play? Does the Technomancer use the vehicle operation skill, Spoof or Command?

5) How do you use Encrypt to protect your rigging signal. Specifically, if you action is to command/spoof/control the vehicle, is encrypting then a free action? Or something that happens automatically? Or do you set up encryption on your signals during downtime?

-~GitM
Earlydawn
1. Indeed, Logic does not play into hacking. Various solutions and modifications have been suggested, including Logic + Hacking capped by the program rating, Program Rating + Hacking capped by Logic, etc.

2. Those are primarily there for their indirect elements. Nothing direct I can think of, beyond any combination that may be called for by a GM substitute for a abnormal situation.

3. If I'm not mistaken, it's Reaction when jumped in, and Pilot for everything else. Specifics elude me at the moment.

4. Abstain. Not sure.

5. Ditto.
Jaid
system is used to resist damage. response is used for calculating matrix initiative. firewall is used for defending against matrix attacks iirc.
Ghost in the Machine
Thanks! That answers 1 & 2. Still need more on 3-5, if anyone would be so kind. embarrassed.gif

-~GitM
Riley37
I imagine that you would use Logic + Hacking when designing a security system - you are not actually running the programs, you are installing them for the optimal balance between security and convenient access. Not a common activity for shadowrunners, although if you took extra time to install a Firewall on your comlink or vehicle, I would allow such a roll to get +1 effective rating if hits exceeded the rating of the Firewall.

The Response rating of the hardware limits the System rating of the OS. The System rating of the OS limits the rating of any programs you run. It's also important on the defending side of the Attack vs OS contest.

For 3, long answer:
I have a different interpretation, based on rules in three different sections (BBB 158ff Vehicle Combat, BBB 220 Controlling Devices, BBB 238-240 Drones) which may be addressed already on other threads. It sure seems to me that each of these levels was considered by at least one writer/editor, but that writers did not have consensus about them.

Level A: You give instructions to the drone/vehicle, often verbally. It interprets those instructions and chooses how to implement them, using its own stats. Example: "Rover 1, drive yourself back to the garage." Rover then uses Pilot stat plus Maneuver autosoft for any crash tests, and uses Pilot stat alone to remember where the garage is. Meanwhile, you can be busy doing other things and give no attention until either "Hey look, Rover's back" or "Hmm, shouldn't Rover be back by now?" - or if you like, you can observe Rover's progress on a screen or an AR display.
p238 "Drones acting on their own use their own Pilot and autosoft ratings for all necessary tests and act on their own initiative" See also BBB 221, Issuing Commands. "Rovers 1 2 and 3, drive yourselves back to the garage" is one Simple Action, and "Rover 4, drive to my location" is a separate Simple Action. Rover's Initiative equals Pilot plus Response, and Rover gets 3 IPs. (I imagine that people usually install a Pilot equal in rating to the Response.)

Level B: You remote-control Rover using some kind of control interface on your hardware (eg the joystick or up-down-left-right buttons on your comlink). You are choosing Rover's path moment-by-moment. Rover's sensors are feeding into a display on your screen or your AR. Kinda like driving a vehicle in a game such as Halo. The rating of your Command program represents the quality of the interface. "Remotely controlling a drone would take a Command + vehicle skill Test" p. 220. I interpret this as the mode also called "Captain's Chair" (page?), and "remotely controlling" by AR p. 159 (no bonus; you get +1 if you use AR while actually sitting in the vehicle's driver seat). Rover acts on your Initiative.

Level C: Jumped in, cold sim.
You see the input from the vehicle sensors directly onto your full field of vision, and you aren't using a joystick anymore; you experience the vehicle as if it were your own body. You get -1 threshold to all piloting tests (p. 159).
If vehicle is destroyed or connection otherwise cut off, dumpshock does Stun damage.
Directly contradicting text on the same page, BBB 239:
"Any tests are made using the rigger's own skills and attributes"
Two sections down:
"When observing through a drone, a rigger rolls Sensor (rather than Intuition) + Perception"

Level D: Jumped in, hot sim. Rigger risks Stun whenever drone is damaged and risks Physical Damage dumpshock if drone is destroyed, per BBB 239 "Jumping Into Drones". Text implies, but does not state, that all jumped-in rigging is hot sim (and thus impossible without hot-sim ASIST module).

As for technomancers... they can jump into a vehicle/drone without the usual ASIST gadgetry, but otherwise, all actions and mechanics should be the same. TMs can use Threading on programs; unclear if autosofts are threadable.
Cain
#3. In general, when ordering around a drone, Command is used.
WearzManySkins
For Electronic Warfare when dealing hands on with communication you can use Electronic Warfare + Logic.

WMS
Riley37
Sending encrypted signals to spoof a drone would be useful only if you're using the same encryption key as the drone's owner - and in that case, it's required.

You don't need a separate action to convert the output of your Command program into ecrypted commands, but Command and Encrypt both add to demand on System/Response if you're running them together.
Jaid
very well then.

3) when rigging (by which i mean you are jumped in) the vehicle's response replaces your reaction attribute, as well as any other physical attribute other than body you may need to use technically, except when doing perception tests (you use sensor for that) or matrix tests (you switch back to matrix rules for that, of course). generally speaking, if for some reason you need a strength check, you should probably just use the drone's body.

when remote controlling, you would use command for everything, technically including when you do a sensor test i think... but probably intended to just use it whenever you would have used reaction had you been rigging. you only need command if you wish to control the drone by remote control, it is otherwise not needed, not even for giving orders to a drone to have it follow.

spoof is only used (for rigging) to send fake orders to devices. for example, you could spoof an enemy drone to boot it's rigger, thus delivering a nice side-dish of dumpshock along with the biofeedback from hitting it with tasers wink.gif

4) technomancers work exactly like riggers in all respects other than such areas as threading up complex forms and other resonance-specific activities. unless you are using resonance abilities (ie sprites or threading) the rules are the same for both. remember, use the vehicle's response, not the technomancer's.

note that due to the way the command CF works, technomancers can do very scary things by threading up command, having a sprite boost it higher, and having a machine sprite analyse the drone you're piloting. i for one highly recommend using remote control as a TM (it also means you can specialise in, for example, the remote control specialisation which exists for all of the main vehicle skills)

5) not particularly specified in the rules. i would assume encrypt is set up in downtime, and you just leave it running as needed. note that encryption is more of a stall tactic then anything else; you can still be hacked, it just adds a little time to the process is all.
Ghost in the Machine
QUOTE (Jaid)
3) when rigging (by which i mean you are jumped in) the vehicle's response replaces your reaction attribute, as well as any other physical attribute other than body you may need to use technically, except when doing perception tests (you use sensor for that) or matrix tests (you switch back to matrix rules for that, of course). generally speaking, if for some reason you need a strength check, you should probably just use the drone's body.

To my knowledge, vehicles themselves do not have a Response rating. Where did you find the rules for vehicle response ratings?

The only Response rating I am aware of is that of commlinks and Technomancers. Thus, I am unsure whether a Technomancer would use Reaction + Pilot or Response + Pilot when "jumped into" a vehicle.

Another question: Can you use Spoof instead of Command, spoofing orders to your own vehicles, and thus eliminate the need to have both?

-~GitM
Ghost in the Machine
QUOTE (Riley37)
I have a different interpretation, based on rules in three different sections (BBB 158ff Vehicle Combat, BBB 220 Controlling Devices, BBB 238-240 Drones)

What is BBB?

-~GitM
Cain
BBB=Big Black Book

E.g., the Core Rulebook. cool.gif
Ryu
QUOTE
To my knowledge, vehicles themselves do not have a Response rating. Where did you find the rules for vehicle response ratings?


The standard system ratings table, wireless chapter of the main rulebook.
Ghost in the Machine
I'm not finding a table labeled "Standard System Ratings". The only table I can find with any Response ratings is the table specifically for Commlinks. Furthermore, the tables for Vehicles do not list any sort of Response (although they list Handling).

I double-checked Pilot ratings, but Pilot doesn't give a Response rating and a "jumped in" Rigger won't be using the Pilot anyway. As far as I can tell, the standard Eurocar Westwind has no Response, even though it may be riggable and certainly is something that can be remote controlled.

If a rigger uses her own Matrix Initiative for rigging, shouldn't the rigging be based on the rigger's Response?

What am I missing, and where is it?

-~GitM
Ghost in the Machine
So far, the only thing I can find that even suggests what a vehicle's Response rating would be is that the standard vehicle sensor package (pg 325) has a Signal of 5. The only Commlink that has a Signal of 5 is the Fairlight, which also has a Response of 4.

Should I then assume that all vehicles have an inherent Response of 4? (And that drones have inherent lower ratings based on the same logic.)

-~GitM
Ryu
P. 213 of the german edition. Don´t know if the page reference is exact. Look for the examples for device ratings. All matrix attributes are supposed to have that rating. Yes, most runners will want to invest here.
DireRadiant
SR4 p. 214

Sample Devices Table is what you are looking for.

Rigging Dice Pools

Jumped in
Response + Skill

Remote Control
Command + Skill

Pilot
Either Pilot + Skill
or Skill(Pilot) + Program
Riley37
QUOTE (Ghost in the Machine)
Can you use Spoof instead of Command, spoofing orders to your own vehicles, and thus eliminate the need to have both?

Spoof changes the appearance of the persona that is issuing commands. It does not, by itself, generate commands.
When you get email or postal mail, you usually get a Return Address that tells you who sent the message. Spoof changes the "return address" of your Matrix or wireless communications.

So, every command you send to your drone is normally marked with something like "This command is from Ghost in the Machine". You could use Spoof to change that to "This command is from Riley37." That will result in *your* drones saying "I'm ignoring that command from Riley37, since Riley37 is not my owner, Ghost in the Machine is my owner."

If you successfully Spoof so that all your messages are marked as "this is from Riley37", then *my* drones will take the message seriously. If the message doesn't include an instruction that's properly formatted by a Command program, then my drones respond with "Boss, I can tell this is from you, but it makes no sense. This here is not a valid command."

You can safely assume that every vehicle has just enough of a Response rating, to run the Pilot that comes with the vehicle. I find it unlikely that Dodge builds Response 4 computers into their Dodge Scoot bikes, then installs a Rating 1 pilot onto Response 4 hardware.
Jaid
once again, you need to understand that command is *only* used in one situation, and that one situation is when you remote control your drones.

if you never want to remote control your drones, you don't ever need command. you can still give orders to your drones, and the drones will carry them out, and whether or not you have a command program is completely irrelevant to your ability to give orders and have the drone follow them.

so, like i said, there are 3 methods of controlling drones:

1) jumped-in rigging. you *are* the drone. when you think walk, the drone moves forward. when you think punch, the drone fires a full burst from it's turret-mounted LMG. etc. use response + skill for most dicepools, sensor + perception for perception, and armor + body for damage resist.

2) remote control. like a modern remote controlled plane, which you operate externally, using a radio. think battlebots, robot wars, etc. your basic dice pool is command program + skill for most dicepools, probably *should* be sensor + perception for perception tests, and body + armor for damage resist. this is basically the *only* purpose of the command program.

3) give orders, let the drone do things on it's own. you tell your butler drone to go get you some water, and it goes into the kitchen, pours a glass of water, and brings it back to you. no actions beyond the initial order are required on your part. the dicepool is whatever the drone's dicepool is, which depends on the drone in question. generally pilot or sensor + autosoft rating, with the exception of damage resist (standard armor + body) no command program is required, no skill is required, you just tell it to go do something and it does it.

and btw, while you could certainly just choose not to have a command program, why wouldn't you have one? they're dirt cheap, and not illegal. may as well just buy one just for completeness' sake, so that if you're ever in an automated factory you can remote control the robotics to solder an NPC to the wall rather than relying on the drone's probable 1-3 dice for making an attack with a soldering iron? even if you're defaulting, a rating 6 command program + hotsim = 6 dice.
Ghost in the Machine
So despite all vehicle piloting skills being Reaction skills, Riggers don't really have any need for a high Reaction (any more than other Hackers have need for high Logic).

o-kay.

Now, here's the specific situation I'm looking at:

The party is making their getaway on the 520 super-freeway, pursued by an opposing Shadowrun team. The opposing team's Technomancer, sitting in the safety of a laundromat, rigging-leaps into a random vehicle on the 520 -- a semi-truck which he proceeds to drive into the oncoming traffic lane towards the PC's vehicle.

The Technomancer has a Reaction of 2 and an Intuition of 5. His Matrix Initiative is 11+1d6 with 4 Initiative Passes. He has a Pilot Ground Vehicle skill of 5 and a Command Complex Form of 4. He has a Response of 2.

Based on Sample Devices (pg 214), the semi truck has a Response of 3. It would have a Pilot of 2 or 3, so let's say 2.

So, if I understand correctly, the Technomancer's dice pool for driving the semi is:

Truck Response (3) + Pilot Ground Vehicle (5) + VR Bonus (2) = 10d6
-1 Threshold on all tests.
Initiative of 11+1d6 (4 Passes).


Now if the Technomancer choose instead to merely take control of the vehicle remotely as a Drone:

Command (4) + Pilot Ground Vehicle (5) + VR Bonus (2) = 11d6
No test threshold change.
Initiative is based on Truck Pilot (2) + Truck Response (3)= 5+1d6 (3 Passes).


Is that correct?


-~GitM
DireRadiant
QUOTE (Ghost in the Machine)
So, if I understand correctly, the Technomancer's dice pool for driving the semi is:

Truck Response (3) + Pilot Ground Vehicle (5) + VR Bonus (2) = 10d6
-1 Threshold on all tests.
Initiative of 11+1d6 (4 Passes).

The Semi must be Rigger Adapted, the TM must be VR and have jumped in.

There si some discussion, and thus up to you if random semi is rigger adapted. (If it is rigger adapted, why isn't there a rigger already is something to think about)
DireRadiant
QUOTE (Ghost in the Machine)
Now if the Technomancer choose instead to merely take control of the vehicle remotely as a Drone:

Command (4) + Pilot Ground Vehicle (5) + VR Bonus (2) = 11d6
No test threshold change.
Initiative is based on Truck Pilot (2) + Truck Response (3)= 5+1d6 (3 Passes).

Use TM Response and TM Initiative, command complex form is limited by TM
Jaid
not quite correct. in either situation, the technomancer controls the drone on his own initiative (you've done that in the first, but not the second). otherwise, it looks pretty much right.

although random vehicles on the highway should not just have rigger adaptation, but that's easily just changed to "picking a random vehicle with rigger adaptation on the highway..."
DireRadiant
QUOTE (Ghost in the Machine @ Nov 8 2007, 07:28 PM)
So despite all vehicle piloting skills being Reaction skills, Riggers don't really have any need for a high Reaction (any more than other Hackers have need for high Logic).

There's plenty of room for a real driver using reaction + skill + AR bonuses.

Also don't forget a TM can send a sprite to drive.

Lots of options in SR4. Riggers are best at driving, but lots of other people can drive effectively if they want to.
Cain
Actually, if it has a Pilot, it's automatically rigger-adapted. I'm too lazy to dig up the page reference right now, but it is right there in the rules. Makes the Rigger Adaptation mod in the gear chapter pretty redundant.
Ghost in the Machine
Cain: Each of the vehicles in the gear section has a Pilot as standard equipment...so does that mean that effectively all vehicles are rigger adapted off the lot?

If not...

Jaid: It's a lot more common for passenger vehicles to be rigger adapted in my Shadowrun campaigns than the book suggests. Whether or not a personal vehicle does is up to the whim of the buyer (or original purchaser, in many cases). But company vehicles (like semi trucks) tend to all be rigger adapted.

Made the correction you pointed out. (Plus another I had forgotten.)

-~GitM
Ghost in the Machine
So, if I understand correctly, the Technomancer's dice pool for driving the semi is:

Truck Response (3) + Pilot Ground Vehicle (5) + VR Bonus (2) + Truck Handling (-3) = 7d6
-1 Threshold on all tests.
Initiative of 11+1d6 (4 Passes).


Now if the Technomancer choose instead to merely take control of the vehicle remotely as a Drone:

Command (4) + Pilot Ground Vehicle (5) + VR Bonus (2) + Truck Handling (-3) = 11d6
No test threshold change.
Initiative of 11+1d6 (4 Passes).


Is that correct? cyber.gif

-~GitM
Riley37
I imagine that companies which own vehicles, install VR-driving equipment on vehicles when they have reason to invest in high-level driving. A jumped-in driver gets a big bonus; most deliveries of bulk cargo by tractor/trailer on ordinary roads don't need that kind of bonus (they mostly did OK in 1989, without even AR, after all). A truck carrying sensitive, delicate or hazardous cargo might have the equipment for a driver to "jump in" by DNI, perhaps just to get lower insurance rates. (One-time payment of $2500, ongoing costs to get drivers who are experienced at VR driving, perhaps extra to get drivers with Control Rig headware, versus the insurance costs of transporting a truckload of, say, Ex-Ex ammo or Rating 6 control chips.)

On another hand, no company has much reason to install jump-in *remote wireless control*. They'd just have a port at the driver's station, for the driver to jack in directly. Would *you* install an antenna to allow people to take over your expensive truck by remote control?
hobgoblin
Why not drone trucks, and a company rigger in captains chair just in case?
Cain
QUOTE (Ghost in the Machine)
Cain: Each of the vehicles in the gear section has a Pilot as standard equipment...so does that mean that effectively all vehicles are rigger adapted off the lot?

You got it. Like I said, it makes the Rigger Adaptation gear a tad bit redundant.
DireRadiant
QUOTE (Cain @ Nov 8 2007, 09:57 PM)
Actually, if it has a Pilot, it's automatically rigger-adapted.  I'm too lazy to dig up the page reference right now, but it is right there in the rules.  Makes the Rigger Adaptation mod in the gear chapter pretty redundant.

I haven't been able to find this.

What I find is the following.

p, 341
"Rigger Adaptation: When added to a vehicle, this
“black box� allows a character with a control rig (see p. 331)
to rig the vehicle (see Rigging and Drones, p. 238), either
through a direct fiberoptic cable or wireless link."

p. 331
"Control Rig: This implant harnesses the raw data-coordinating
and synchronization power of the middle brain
for the express purpose of directly manipulating rigged vehicles/
drones. The control rig provides a +2 dice pool bonus
on all Vehicle skill tests while the rigger is “jumped into�
a vehicle/drone via full virtual reality. This bonus does not
apply to other drone manipulation through the Matrix."

p.238
"Nearly any kind of vehicle—matchbox-sized cars, dwarfsized
rotorcraft , ground patrol vehicles the size of a large dog,
even modifi ed sports cars—may serve as drones. Th e key diff erence
that sets drones apart from ordinary vehicles is the rigger
adaptation that provides drones with a Pilot program, which
enables the drone to act independently of its controller to a limited
degree.
All drones that are incapable of carrying passengers are
usually automatically pre-adapted for rigger control. Passenger
vehicles or larger passenger drones are not usually pre-adapted,
but can be adapted quickly by the manufacturer, a mechanic, or
even a rigger character (see Rigger Adaptation, p. 341)."

Drones, not vehicles, come pre adapted in a package with Pilot. This does not necassarily mean that vehicles, which are specifically not pre adapted and that have pilot software have rigger adaptation.
Cain
And the difference between a drone and a mere vehicle is that a drone has a Pilot program. All the vehicles in the book have Pilot programs. Ergo, they are drones and therefore Rigger-Adapted, since Rigger Adaptation is how you *get* Pilot programs. QED.

BAsically, while many passenger vehicles may not come rigger-adapted, all the ones in the BBB are.
Riley37
Cain, you have found yet another example of BBB being written by people with incompatible concepts, or perhaps one person with multiple personalities that sabotage each other.

The description of rigger adaptation implies that ONLY a character with a control rig can jump into a rig-enabled vehicle.
The description of a control rig suggests that it makes its owner *better* (+2) at doing things that *anyone* can do. No passage other than the description of Rigger Adaptation suggests that only characters with control rigs can use VR jumped-in piloting.
"The key difference that sets drones apart from ordinary vehicles is the rigger adaptation that provides drones with a Pilot program" - wait, but the description of a rigger adaptation does *not* say that it provides a Pilot program; and indeed, fluff text says or implies that every vehicle that uses GridGuide has at least enough of an autopilot to follow GridGuide directions (eg if the metahuman driver goes unconscious while mid-intersection).

The minimal descriptions of vehicles and drones suggest to me that the real difference between vehicles and drones is that vehicles are designed with a "driver's seat" so that one CAN (not has to, not the only way, but CAN) control the vehicle from within it, and the drones do not have seats or other accomodations for drivers (nor passengers, except for the medic drone), and are driven by Pilot, by Command program, or by jumped-in VR.

Does "rig" mean, and ONLY mean, to control a vehicle by jumping in, hot-sim or cold-sim?
If so, then Command program is not used by people who rig.
Are "riggers" people who ONLY rig, or people who control drones, sometimes with Command, sometimes jumped in?

Every time these questions come up, I become more convinced that BBB was written by people with totally different assumptions from each other.
Ghost in the Machine
Well, at least I feel better about having been confused.


Since...

A) all BBB vehicles have a pilot system and,
B) all drones are automatically assumed to be rigging-enabled, and
C) these off-the-shelf rigging-enabled drones have a lower cost than Rigger Adaption alone...

...for now I'm just going to make a GM ruling that not all vehicles are rigger adapted, but rigger adaption is pretty basic, and that buying a car without rigger adaption is like buying one without airbags. Or a sound system. The Rigger Adaption price is the cost to turn a vehicle that isn't rigger-enabled (like an old '57 Chevy) into a rigger-enabled vehicle.

-~GitM
Ryu
What DireRadiant said, with the added information that drones are those vehicles listed under the drone entry. Those get a pilot and rigger adaption at the same time. Anything else gets a navi that can drive.
Ghost in the Machine
QUOTE (Ryu @ Nov 9 2007, 08:49 AM)
What DireRadiant said, with the added information that drones are those vehicles listed under the drone entry. Those get a pilot and rigger adaption at the same time. Anything else gets a navi that can drive.

It was DireRadiant's third quote that convinced me that all the vehicles in the BBB are off-the-shelf rigging enabled.

There's no mention anywhere of a "navi". All vehicles in BBB have full Pilot ratings. Pilot ratings for vehicles come from rigging adaption. Thus, all vehicles in BBB have rigging adaption. Just like Cain points out.

Maybe, as Riley suggests, in 2070 the very concept of a vehicle has changed, and it requires a shift in perception. A drone isn't a vehicle that can be rigged or remote operated. Rather, a vehicle is a drone that can be operated sans VR.

-~GitM
Ryu
Read that 3rd quote again. All vehicles may serve as drones. They may indeed, with rigger adaption. Drones without passenger capacity have that rigger adaption build in, always, by necessity.

A pilot without rigger adaption is basically a navi that can also drive. I was not talking about some piece of SR equipment, sorry for that.
Ghost in the Machine
Again, a "navi" sounds like something from a previous edition that no longer applies.

I get the impression that having a Pilot without a Rigger Adaption is like having an OS without a Commlink. The Pilot is the software; the Rigger Adaption is the hardware necessary to run it.

When a Pilot program is driving the car, (ex: the "passanger has passed out" scenerio) the program acts using it's Pilot rating plus the vehicle's Response*. That Response rating isn't something granted by the Pilot program; it's hardware. Hardware that allows a program (and thus alternately a person hacking or overriding that program) to make the vehicle's systems perform actions without needing to physically manipulate the steering wheel and pedals. And that hardware is, by definition, Rigger Adaption.

-~GitM

*Drone Initiative (BBB pg239)
FrankTrollman
You cannot prove anything by the statements in the main book relative to whether a Honda Spirit can be pilotted remotely or counts as a drone under any circumstances. What it comes down to is that the rules say that Rigger Adaptation causes a vehicle to have a Pilot. It doesn't say that having a Pilot is equivalent to being adapted to Riggers, it doesn't say that having a Pilot implies an already existing Rigger Adaption. But of course there are no rules or implied statements about what it actually means, or even if it's possible for a vehicle to have a pilot and not have Rigger Adaption.

It's a mess. This very argument comes up at regular intervals because:
A -> B =/= B -> A.
And because the rules never actually say what the value of A is under any circumstances.

But my interpreation of what they meant to say is:
  • Any vehicle is a "drone" whenever it is being pilotted remotely or by its own pilot program.
  • Any vehicle with a pilot rating can be pilotted in that manner.
  • Any vehicle in the "Drone" section can only be pilotted in that manner because it doesn't have a passenger compartment.

Can you make other guesses? Absolutely, the original document is contradictory on several minor points and silent on several major ones. But that's been my interpretation for some time.

-Frank
Ryu
What is the problem here?

A pilot program is able to pilot a vehicle. Duh!

Rigger adaption allows a rigger to pilot the vehicle via VR signals.

A drone (equipment listed under "drones") has rigger adaption pre-installed if it has no passenger capacity. Standard vehicles require the add-on version.

Pilot is used instead of system in vehicles, drones and agents. (German edition p. 214) Rigger adaption is no requirement. Nice to know that drone rigger adaption already comes with a pilot program, but essentially not of consequence. A vehicle may (and usually does) have a pilot program.

It seems odd that only some drones automatically get a pilot program with their rigger adaption. As every vehicle published for SR4 so far comes with a pilot program (as already stated), this oddity may be ignored.

Right now I remember the not-funny-at-all intent-vs-wording discussions on allmost any GW board. Don´t go there.
DireRadiant
The fundamental logic is as Frank articulated.

A-> B != B -> A

You can also consider why bother having a separate purchasable item explicitly described as built into non passenger vehicles and explicitly not commonly built into passenger vehicles and describing purchasing and adding it to passenger vehicles.

Unfortunately the sample characters are so messed up I can't reliable tell if their vehicles are bought with it. The fact it doesn't say they are bought with rigger adaption doesn't mean much considering how much else is missing on their equipment purchases.

In the end it's only 2500 nuyen so it's not a big deal either way.
Nightwalker450
I think the way its supposed to be is without the Rigger Adaptation you can't "Jump into" the vehicle. You can use command programs to drive it (Command + Skill), or the pilot (pilot + program) can drive it. But you can't jump in and use your own reaction + pilot Skill + simrig bonus + VR bonus + AR lowered threshold... At least this is how my last courier interpreted it.

But I like the idea of the Technomancer taking control of a semi... So what would this take to hack control of a vehicle? I assume that everything overrides pilot, but Manual (ie User level?) could only be overriden by a Lone Star or official override (ie Admin level?). But I think the age of Truck Drivers are past, and all semi's probably are just running pilot programs. So just need to hack into the semi.
Riley37
Despite the unfortunate BBB phrasing, whether a vehicle has rigger adaptation (can be controlled by VR), and whether it has Pilot, should be independent variables.

Vehicle has pilot AND rig-adapt: you can control it in any of the listed modes.
Vehicle has pilot ONLY: you can drive it from driver's seat using just your own senses and limbs, or with AR, or tell its Pilot what to do.
Vehicle has rig-adapt ONLY: you can drive it from driver's seat using just your own senses and limbs, or with AR, or with VR, or by fiber-optic cable, or by wireless (unless owner disables wireless).
Vehicle has neither: you can drive it from driver's seat using just your own senses and limbs... like my own car (Saturn SL2).

Cheops
1) Any vehicle that is communicating wirelessly can be "Jumped Into."
-this allows anyone with a commlink and a sim module to pilot in VR
2) Any vehicle that has Pilot is able to control itself in response to orders sent to them.
3) Any vehicle that is communicating wirelessly can be remote controlled via the command program.
4) Wireless communication can be replaced by wired communication and physical connection to the vehicle.

5) In order to get the benefits of the Control Rig the vehicle must be Rigger Adapted. Drones automatically have Rigger Adaption.

Hope this clears things up.
Cain
QUOTE
Despite the unfortunate BBB phrasing, whether a vehicle has rigger adaptation (can be controlled by VR), and whether it has Pilot, should be independent variables.

"Should be" and "According to the RAW" are separate things. Since the OP wanted a canon answer, the by-the-book reply is that yes, any vehicle with a Pilot is automatically rigger-adapted. Which comprises all the vehicles in the book.
Cheops
QUOTE (Ghost in the Machine)
So, if I understand correctly, the Technomancer's dice pool for driving the semi is:

Truck Response (3) + Pilot Ground Vehicle (5) + VR Bonus (2) + Truck Handling (-3) = 7d6
-1 Threshold on all tests.
Initiative of 11+1d6 (4 Passes).


Now if the Technomancer choose instead to merely take control of the vehicle remotely as a Drone:

Command (4) + Pilot Ground Vehicle (5) + VR Bonus (2) + Truck Handling (-3) = 11d6
No test threshold change.
Initiative of 11+1d6 (4 Passes).


Is that correct? cyber.gif

-~GitM

You are basically correct except that there is no more of that Initiative = # + #d6 anymore. So the correct initiatives should be:

1) Response + Intuition+1/3 IP in Hot VR
2) Response + Intuition+1/3 IP in Hot VR (because Drones go on Rigger initiative when directly piloted)
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Cain)
QUOTE
Despite the unfortunate BBB phrasing, whether a vehicle has rigger adaptation (can be controlled by VR), and whether it has Pilot, should be independent variables.

"Should be" and "According to the RAW" are separate things. Since the OP wanted a canon answer, the by-the-book reply is that yes, any vehicle with a Pilot is automatically rigger-adapted. Which comprises all the vehicles in the book.

ugh, get that control panel section fixed allready...

i so need to add something to my sig...
Klaste
QUOTE (Cheops)
QUOTE (Ghost in the Machine @ Nov 9 2007, 03:47 AM)
So, if I understand correctly, the Technomancer's dice pool for driving the semi is:

Truck Response (3) + Pilot Ground Vehicle (5) + VR Bonus (2) + Truck Handling (-3) = 7d6
-1 Threshold on all tests.
Initiative of 11+1d6 (4 Passes).


Now if the Technomancer choose instead to merely take control of the vehicle remotely as a Drone:

Command (4) + Pilot Ground Vehicle (5) + VR Bonus (2) + Truck Handling (-3) = 11d6
No test threshold change.
Initiative of 11+1d6 (4 Passes).


Is that correct?  cyber.gif

-~GitM

You are basically correct except that there is no more of that Initiative = # + #d6 anymore. So the correct initiatives should be:

1) Response + Intuition+1/3 IP in Hot VR
2) Response + Intuition+1/3 IP in Hot VR (because Drones go on Rigger initiative when directly piloted)

Essentially correct, except this TM has 4 initiative passes in VR (most likely has at least one level of Submersion). My biggest question about this TM is his Response (intuition) of 2 - a little slow in the head, huh?
Ryu
NO! I see the problem about not knowing which vehicles come with rigger adaption now:

RAW:
Passenger vehicles or larger passenger drones are not usually pre-adapted,
but can be adapted quickly by the manufacturer, a mechanic, or
even a rigger character (see Rigger Adaptation, p. 341)."

BUT! The requirement for having a pilot rating is being a vehicle, a drone or an agent. The rigger adaption provides a pilot program. Inconsequential as all drones so far come with a pilot rating, even the Crashcart AutoDoc (only candidate with passenger capacity rotfl.gif ). All drones have rigger adaption, too: See p. 341(german edition, directly below Drones header).

"Being used as a drone" is not "being a drone". A drone is a distinct type of vehicle, not listed by propulsion method for that reason.


Proposed houserule: All vehicles above 50k¥ come with rigger adaption, better models for cheaper vehicles come at 1k¥ more than the basic model. Or ditch it altogether and hand the tech out, but that would take some distinction out of characters that REALLY like driving.
DireRadiant
QUOTE (Cain)
QUOTE
Despite the unfortunate BBB phrasing, whether a vehicle has rigger adaptation (can be controlled by VR), and whether it has Pilot, should be independent variables.

"Should be" and "According to the RAW" are separate things. Since the OP wanted a canon answer, the by-the-book reply is that yes, any vehicle with a Pilot is automatically rigger-adapted. Which comprises all the vehicles in the book.

True, explicitly stated on RAW
rigger adapted drone --> Pilot

Unknown, nowhere explicitly stated in RAW
pilot --> rigger adapted vehicle
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