Rigging and Hacking Questions, What do you use for what? Options

[Ghost in the Mac...]

Cain: Each of the vehicles in the gear section has a Pilot as standard equipment...so does that mean that effectively all vehicles are rigger adapted off the lot?

If not...

Jaid: It's a lot more common for passenger vehicles to be rigger adapted in my Shadowrun campaigns than the book suggests. Whether or not a personal vehicle does is up to the whim of the buyer (or original purchaser, in many cases). But company vehicles (like semi trucks) tend to all be rigger adapted.

Made the correction you pointed out. (Plus another I had forgotten.)

-~GitM

[Ghost in the Mac...]

So, if I understand correctly, the Technomancer's dice pool for driving the semi is:

Truck Response (3) + Pilot Ground Vehicle (5) + VR Bonus (2) + Truck Handling (-3) = 7d6
-1 Threshold on all tests.
Initiative of 11+1d6 (4 Passes).


Now if the Technomancer choose instead to merely take control of the vehicle remotely as a Drone:

Command (4) + Pilot Ground Vehicle (5) + VR Bonus (2) + Truck Handling (-3) = 11d6
No test threshold change.
Initiative of 11+1d6 (4 Passes).


Is that correct? :cyber:

-~GitM

[Riley37]

I imagine that companies which own vehicles, install VR-driving equipment on vehicles when they have reason to invest in high-level driving. A jumped-in driver gets a big bonus; most deliveries of bulk cargo by tractor/trailer on ordinary roads don't need that kind of bonus (they mostly did OK in 1989, without even AR, after all). A truck carrying sensitive, delicate or hazardous cargo might have the equipment for a driver to "jump in" by DNI, perhaps just to get lower insurance rates. (One-time payment of $2500, ongoing costs to get drivers who are experienced at VR driving, perhaps extra to get drivers with Control Rig headware, versus the insurance costs of transporting a truckload of, say, Ex-Ex ammo or Rating 6 control chips.)

On another hand, no company has much reason to install jump-in *remote wireless control*. They'd just have a port at the driver's station, for the driver to jack in directly. Would *you* install an antenna to allow people to take over your expensive truck by remote control?

[hobgoblin]

Why not drone trucks, and a company rigger in captains chair just in case?

[Cain]

[DireRadiant]

[Cain]

And the difference between a drone and a mere vehicle is that a drone has a Pilot program. All the vehicles in the book have Pilot programs. Ergo, they are drones and therefore Rigger-Adapted, since Rigger Adaptation is how you *get* Pilot programs. QED.

BAsically, while many passenger vehicles may not come rigger-adapted, all the ones in the BBB are.

[Riley37]

Cain, you have found yet another example of BBB being written by people with incompatible concepts, or perhaps one person with multiple personalities that sabotage each other.

The description of rigger adaptation implies that ONLY a character with a control rig can jump into a rig-enabled vehicle.
The description of a control rig suggests that it makes its owner *better* (+2) at doing things that *anyone* can do. No passage other than the description of Rigger Adaptation suggests that only characters with control rigs can use VR jumped-in piloting.
"The key difference that sets drones apart from ordinary vehicles is the rigger adaptation that provides drones with a Pilot program" - wait, but the description of a rigger adaptation does *not* say that it provides a Pilot program; and indeed, fluff text says or implies that every vehicle that uses GridGuide has at least enough of an autopilot to follow GridGuide directions (eg if the metahuman driver goes unconscious while mid-intersection).

The minimal descriptions of vehicles and drones suggest to me that the real difference between vehicles and drones is that vehicles are designed with a "driver's seat" so that one CAN (not has to, not the only way, but CAN) control the vehicle from within it, and the drones do not have seats or other accomodations for drivers (nor passengers, except for the medic drone), and are driven by Pilot, by Command program, or by jumped-in VR.

Does "rig" mean, and ONLY mean, to control a vehicle by jumping in, hot-sim or cold-sim?
If so, then Command program is not used by people who rig.
Are "riggers" people who ONLY rig, or people who control drones, sometimes with Command, sometimes jumped in?

Every time these questions come up, I become more convinced that BBB was written by people with totally different assumptions from each other.

[Ghost in the Mac...]

Well, at least I feel better about having been confused.


Since...

A) all BBB vehicles have a pilot system and,
B) all drones are automatically assumed to be rigging-enabled, and
C) these off-the-shelf rigging-enabled drones have a lower cost than Rigger Adaption alone...

...for now I'm just going to make a GM ruling that not all vehicles are rigger adapted, but rigger adaption is pretty basic, and that buying a car without rigger adaption is like buying one without airbags. Or a sound system. The Rigger Adaption price is the cost to turn a vehicle that isn't rigger-enabled (like an old '57 Chevy) into a rigger-enabled vehicle.

-~GitM

[Ryu]

What DireRadiant said, with the added information that drones are those vehicles listed under the drone entry. Those get a pilot and rigger adaption at the same time. Anything else gets a navi that can drive.

[Ghost in the Mac...]

[Ryu]

Read that 3rd quote again. All vehicles may serve as drones. They may indeed, with rigger adaption. Drones without passenger capacity have that rigger adaption build in, always, by necessity.

A pilot without rigger adaption is basically a navi that can also drive. I was not talking about some piece of SR equipment, sorry for that.

[Ghost in the Mac...]

Again, a "navi" sounds like something from a previous edition that no longer applies.

I get the impression that having a Pilot without a Rigger Adaption is like having an OS without a Commlink. The Pilot is the software; the Rigger Adaption is the hardware necessary to run it.

When a Pilot program is driving the car, (ex: the "passanger has passed out" scenerio) the program acts using it's Pilot rating plus the vehicle's Response*. That Response rating isn't something granted by the Pilot program; it's hardware. Hardware that allows a program (and thus alternately a person hacking or overriding that program) to make the vehicle's systems perform actions without needing to physically manipulate the steering wheel and pedals. And that hardware is, by definition, Rigger Adaption.

-~GitM

*Drone Initiative (BBB pg239)

[FrankTrollman]

You cannot prove anything by the statements in the main book relative to whether a Honda Spirit can be pilotted remotely or counts as a drone under any circumstances. What it comes down to is that the rules say that Rigger Adaptation causes a vehicle to have a Pilot. It doesn't say that having a Pilot is equivalent to being adapted to Riggers, it doesn't say that having a Pilot implies an already existing Rigger Adaption. But of course there are no rules or implied statements about what it actually means, or even if it's possible for a vehicle to have a pilot and not have Rigger Adaption.

It's a mess. This very argument comes up at regular intervals because:
A -> B =/= B -> A.
And because the rules never actually say what the value of A is under any circumstances.

But my interpreation of what they meant to say is:

• Any vehicle is a "drone" whenever it is being pilotted remotely or by its own pilot program.
• Any vehicle with a pilot rating can be pilotted in that manner.
• Any vehicle in the "Drone" section can only be pilotted in that manner because it doesn't have a passenger compartment.

Can you make other guesses? Absolutely, the original document is contradictory on several minor points and silent on several major ones. But that's been my interpretation for some time.

-Frank

[Ryu]

What is the problem here?

A pilot program is able to pilot a vehicle. Duh!

Rigger adaption allows a rigger to pilot the vehicle via VR signals.

A drone (equipment listed under "drones") has rigger adaption pre-installed if it has no passenger capacity. Standard vehicles require the add-on version.

Pilot is used instead of system in vehicles, drones and agents. (German edition p. 214) Rigger adaption is no requirement. Nice to know that drone rigger adaption already comes with a pilot program, but essentially not of consequence. A vehicle may (and usually does) have a pilot program.

It seems odd that only some drones automatically get a pilot program with their rigger adaption. As every vehicle published for SR4 so far comes with a pilot program (as already stated), this oddity may be ignored.

Right now I remember the not-funny-at-all intent-vs-wording discussions on allmost any GW board. Don´t go there.

[DireRadiant]

The fundamental logic is as Frank articulated.

A-> B != B -> A

You can also consider why bother having a separate purchasable item explicitly described as built into non passenger vehicles and explicitly not commonly built into passenger vehicles and describing purchasing and adding it to passenger vehicles.

Unfortunately the sample characters are so messed up I can't reliable tell if their vehicles are bought with it. The fact it doesn't say they are bought with rigger adaption doesn't mean much considering how much else is missing on their equipment purchases.

In the end it's only 2500 nuyen so it's not a big deal either way.

[Nightwalker450]

I think the way its supposed to be is without the Rigger Adaptation you can't "Jump into" the vehicle. You can use command programs to drive it (Command + Skill), or the pilot (pilot + program) can drive it. But you can't jump in and use your own reaction + pilot Skill + simrig bonus + VR bonus + AR lowered threshold... At least this is how my last courier interpreted it.

But I like the idea of the Technomancer taking control of a semi... So what would this take to hack control of a vehicle? I assume that everything overrides pilot, but Manual (ie User level?) could only be overriden by a Lone Star or official override (ie Admin level?). But I think the age of Truck Drivers are past, and all semi's probably are just running pilot programs. So just need to hack into the semi.

[Riley37]

Despite the unfortunate BBB phrasing, whether a vehicle has rigger adaptation (can be controlled by VR), and whether it has Pilot, should be independent variables.

Vehicle has pilot AND rig-adapt: you can control it in any of the listed modes.
Vehicle has pilot ONLY: you can drive it from driver's seat using just your own senses and limbs, or with AR, or tell its Pilot what to do.
Vehicle has rig-adapt ONLY: you can drive it from driver's seat using just your own senses and limbs, or with AR, or with VR, or by fiber-optic cable, or by wireless (unless owner disables wireless).
Vehicle has neither: you can drive it from driver's seat using just your own senses and limbs... like my own car (Saturn SL2).

[Cheops]

1) Any vehicle that is communicating wirelessly can be "Jumped Into."
-this allows anyone with a commlink and a sim module to pilot in VR
2) Any vehicle that has Pilot is able to control itself in response to orders sent to them.
3) Any vehicle that is communicating wirelessly can be remote controlled via the command program.
4) Wireless communication can be replaced by wired communication and physical connection to the vehicle.

5) In order to get the benefits of the Control Rig the vehicle must be Rigger Adapted. Drones automatically have Rigger Adaption.

Hope this clears things up.

[Cain]

[Cheops]

[hobgoblin]

[Klaste]

[Ryu]

NO! I see the problem about not knowing which vehicles come with rigger adaption now:

RAW:
Passenger vehicles or larger passenger drones are not usually pre-adapted,
but can be adapted quickly by the manufacturer, a mechanic, or
even a rigger character (see Rigger Adaptation, p. 341)."

BUT! The requirement for having a pilot rating is being a vehicle, a drone or an agent. The rigger adaption provides a pilot program. Inconsequential as all drones so far come with a pilot rating, even the Crashcart AutoDoc (only candidate with passenger capacity :rotfl: ). All drones have rigger adaption, too: See p. 341(german edition, directly below Drones header).

"Being used as a drone" is not "being a drone". A drone is a distinct type of vehicle, not listed by propulsion method for that reason.


Proposed houserule: All vehicles above 50k¥ come with rigger adaption, better models for cheaper vehicles come at 1k¥ more than the basic model. Or ditch it altogether and hand the tech out, but that would take some distinction out of characters that REALLY like driving.

[DireRadiant]