 Rigging and Hacking Questions, What do you use for what? |
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 Nov 9 2007, 09:38 PM
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#51
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Grand Master of Run-Fu  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178  |
It is stated, rather clearly, that all vehicles can be adapted as drones. Also, the difference between a drone and a ordinary vehicle is that it has a Pilot. Since all the vehicles in the BBB are also drones (have a Pilot program), and all drones are rigger-adapted, thus all the vehicles in the book are already rigger-adapted.
Honestly, I don't see what the big fuss is. It's not like this breaks the game in any fashion. The worst that can be said is that it makes the Rigger Adaptation gear redundant. |
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Nov 9 2007, 09:52 PM
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#52
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
The difference between an ordinary vehicle and a drone is that the drone has rigger adaption. You can rigger adapt your vehicles if you want, then they are drones. A drone is only automatically rigger adapted if it is listed under drones in SR4. Only having a pilot is no argument against vehicles, see Pilot chapter.
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Nov 9 2007, 10:06 PM
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#53
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
A person has eyes. Everything with eyes is a person. That's what you are telling me. |
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Nov 9 2007, 10:40 PM
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#54
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
No. What the book says is that the distinction between an ordinary vehicle and a drone is that a drone has a Pilot program. If it lacks a Pilot, it's a vehicle. If it has one, it's a Drone. Simple, straightforward, and ironclad according to the RAW.
You're trying to use straw man logic, when this is an argument of definition. The *definition* of a drone is: "Vehicle with Pilot". What you're trying to say is: A drone is a vehicle, except when it isn't. Which in addition to being too non-specific to hold as an argument, but doesn't negate the facts at hand. |
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Nov 10 2007, 12:30 AM
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#55
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 283 |
What? :eek: Actually, shouldn't it be (hits from 11d6) + 11? -~GitM |
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Nov 10 2007, 12:59 AM
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#56
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 283 |
I agree with Frank Trollman: the rules are very unclear and you can't make a positive determination just by quoting them. As such, it will come down to a Gamemaster call. For my games, I see the above argument more like this: By having a body (Rigger Adaption) installed, a bicycle (Vehicle) gets a brain (Pilot). The brain can control the bicycle and make it go where the brain wants it to. Side A: All the bicycles in the BBB have brains already installed. Thus, all BBB bicycles come with bodies. Buying brainless bodies for your bicycle is redundant! Side B: No no no! The bicycles in BBB just have wet, bodiless brains slapped on the bicycle seat which control the bicycles through magical telekenesis. Either one could be right, but I'm going with Side A because it makes more sense to me and is more mechanically coherent with the rest of the book. In this analogy, I suppose Riggers would be psychic body-snatchers? :scatter: Side note: This would make Rigger Adaption something you don't need to worry about for new vehicles. But it still needs to be listed in gear because there will be riggers wanting to put Rigger Adaption into vehicles that were made before Rigger Adaption was integrated into vehicle design. (Example: a rigger who wants to put Rigger Adaption in his classic '57 Chevy). And it makes sense that Rigger Adaption instillation for a pre-rigging era vehicle would actually be as expensive as buying a brand new, fully rigged Honda Scoot. -~GitM |
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Nov 13 2007, 06:31 PM
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#57
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 103 Joined: 21-August 07 Member No.: 12,814 |
I've never met a rulebook that didn't have contradictions. For the contradictions, I look at the body of the text and compare to the way the rules typically achieve balance. Looking at the evidence, I find it more convincing that the writers meant for rigger adaptation to be required for all non-drone vehicles than to believe that they meant that all vehicles to come with rigger adaptation included. I think they just simply started with one concept, and then thought a pilot rating for all vehicles made sense (and it does) and forgot to clean up the bit about rigger adaptation adding a pilot rating. No biggie, everyone can choose a flavor and let's move on. |
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Nov 13 2007, 08:22 PM
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#58
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 103 Joined: 21-August 07 Member No.: 12,814 |
In the spirit of the overall post, here is my rigger guide I have been working on. Please comment and add. I will refine it and post it once I have all the info pulled together.
Rules for Using Drones Step 1. Equipment. 1A. Purchase or Steal Riggers or other characters that plan on controlling drones on vehicles must either own a vehicle/drone or hack one (rules for hacking one are being argued in a separate thread: Stealing Drones). When purchasing a drone/vehicle, the item is purchased using the value indicated on p.342 SR4. 1B. Add Rigger Adaptation All drones come with rigger adaptation. Vehicles require the purchase of rigger adaptation (unless your interpretation of the rules is that they come with it based on text that says that a rigger adaptation grants a pilot rating and that because all vehicles have a pilot rating this should give it to you for free). Rigger adaptation cost is on SR4 p.341. 1C. Add Weapons If you want a weapon on the vehicle, use the Weapon Mount on SR4 p.341. This does not include the weapon or ammo, which must be purchased separately. Some security drones (Doberman, Steel Lynx) come with a weapon mount - the weapon and ammo must still be purchased separately. 1D. Modify Ratings By default, the drones/vehicles you purchase have a Signal, Response, and Firewall rating equal to the device rating. The device rating is on SR4 p.214. Most drones are device rating 3, while the security drones (per the FAQ) are device rating 4. There is no way to increase the device rating. The Pilot rating is stated in the vehicle/drone tables on p.342. Thus, :nuyen: must be spent to upgrade the Signal, Firewall, Response, and also the Pilot if a higher rating is desired. To do this, purchase the rating you desire at full cost. There is no indication that the previous version can be sold, though house rules could allow for this. Program Costs are stated on p.228 and p.321. Example1: [ Spoiler ] As demonstrated, those programs and the baseline modifications add a significant cost to vehicles. Riggers with skill in software or hardware could consider copying programs (buying one Pilot 4, then copying it to other vehicles) or writing software or programming hardware, but these checks are often long extended checks. The easiest way to reduce cost is copying software (Pilot and Firewall are software) and purchasing the Signal and Response (hardware). 1E. Autosofts and Programs Autosofts provide critical software that assists riggers and drones in carrying out skills such as targeting and maneuvering, usually when the drone is allowed to act on its own. In addition, programs such as Command are critical to providing orders to drones, and others such as Analyze and Spoof are useful for hacking enemy drones. Programs are straight-forward. One copy of a program is needed only, and they are loaded on the commlink, counting against the maximum number of programs run at one time. Programs are purchased at the costs described on p.321 and 228. A look at the Archetypes shows that they have only purchased one copy of the Autosofts, though reading the SR4 rules makes it pretty clear that autosofts reside on individual drones. The rules for copying software rules can be used to stretch cash a bit, as writing Autosofts takes a long time. Thus, most riggers would probably buy one copy of each needed Autosoft, then slowly make copies as game downtime allows. Riggers wanting a bit more up-front utility may choose to buy lower rating Autosofts for the other drones just to get 1 or 2 dice for the meantime. Example costs for Programs and Autosofts: [ Spoiler ] As demonstrated, it would be pretty expensive to start the game with 4 modified drones and have each contain rating 4 autosofts! 1F. Commlink and Cyberwear The Commlink must of course be purchased and any upgrades are paid at the full cost of the upgrade. Because of this, it is often cheaper to purchase the cheapest commlink and then pay for the upgrades. Example Commlink and Cyberwear: [ Spoiler ] Step 2. Setting Up for Rigging: Subscribing Drones Riggers may want to try to subscribe drones to their Commlink ahead of time. Each drone/vehicle is subscribed as a simple action. A rigger can also have drones subscribed to each other so that they can better share tactics (I am not clear on whether this is a separate action). The limit is the Systemx2 of the Commlink. If in combat, the rigger will need to spend valuable simple actions on getting drones subscribed, so it can be useful to set up ahead of time. Step 3. Remote Rigging To control a drone remotely, a simple action is used with the Command program. A single simple action can provide the command to a single drone, or the command (attack target) may be applied to all subscribed drones if desired. 3A. Initiative If the drone is acting on its own, initiative of the drone is Pilot Rating + Response, with 3 passes. Note that the rigger could be in VR doing other things (gaining 3 passes and using their Matrix Initiative) or could be jacked out using regular initiative (usually with 1 pass) depending on the circumstances. Note that a rigger could be also be actively driving a vehicle using AR, but not jumped into the vehicle. If using AR, Initiative would be Response + Intuition, with 1 Pass. 3B. Checks: Checks are generally made using the Autosoft and the drone's version of an attribute. Common checks are shown below: [ Spoiler ] 3C. Other notes Arming/Disarming a weapon system on a drone is 1 free action per drone. I do not believe a rigger gets to use the +2 dice for VR or +2 dice for hot sim or the -1 threshold in any way while remote rigging. Step 4. Rigging by Jumping In Jumping into a drone is a simple action. When you jump in, you actively control that one vehicle/drone, leaving any others to act on their own. You may still issue commands to them as you would normally for remote drones. 4A. Initiative: VR-Controlled drones act on the rigger's initiative: Response + Intuition + 1 (for VR), 3 Passes (2 are granted by VR). Note as in 3A above that a rigger could be actively driving a vehicle using AR, but not jumped into the vehicle. If using AR, Initiative would be Response + Intuition, with 1 Pass. 4B. Checks: Checks while jumped in are generally made with the actual rigger's skill plus Sensor or Response. A rigger using VR would gains +2 dice due to rigging with a control rig, +2 dice for hot sim, and -1 to all thresholds for vehicle tests. A rigger also receives +1 die for all vehicle tests if physically piloting a vehicle (the bonus is lost if piloting remotely). Common checks are shown below: [ Spoiler ] 4C. Damage When a jumped-into drone takes damage, the rigger must resist 1/2 the damage (round up). This is Stun damage with a test using Willpower + Biofeedback Filter to resist. If the drone is destroyed, the rigger is dumped and suffers dumpshock (p.231). There you have it. Please note any corrections, resolve issues in red, and add anything missing. Thanks! |
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Nov 13 2007, 08:26 PM
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#59
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I think you would be better served starting a new thread and posting those 'Rules' in the first post. That way, people could use the whole thread just for your rules set, and could easily find any changes you have made, since it is in the easy-to-locate first post spot. :)
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Nov 13 2007, 08:28 PM
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#60
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Yep. It sure is. :) |
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Nov 13 2007, 09:06 PM
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#61
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 103 Joined: 21-August 07 Member No.: 12,814 |
I thought I would start here, collect comments, add things that were missing, etc., then break it out if it was judged to be useful. Thanks! |
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Nov 17 2007, 01:47 AM
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#62
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 103 Joined: 21-August 07 Member No.: 12,814 |
Does anyone know the answer to the bits in red? Any of the other stuff look off? Thanks! |
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Nov 17 2007, 03:44 AM
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#63
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
i'm not totally clear on what you mean when you say "remote rigging".
you appear to be confused either way, however. the dicepools you have given appear to be the dicepools i would expect from giving drones orders and letting the drone carry out the order itself. the confusion comes from the fact that you don't need, nor even particularly want, or care about, the command program while doing this. that's not what the command program is all about. in any event, for the drone to be acting on it's own, the dicepools would be as follows: attack: variable. either sensor + targeting autosoft + sensor-perception mods, OR pilot + targeting autosoft + net hits from sensor-test (but requires that you actively use your sensors on the target first) infiltration: pilot + infiltration autosoft (not canon yet; for now, the drone will have to default to pilot -1, or you can just houserule in a new autosoft) electronic warfare: EW autosoft (if any) + some other rating... usually this will be either the rating of the sniffer/scan/etc program the pilot has access to, or the rating of a radio scanner or other device that uses EW. note that technically, no rolling is involved in either the offense or defense of jamming... but if it were, then the dicepool would likely be EW autosoft + jammer rating/ECCM rating Jumped in: your dicepool for electronic warfare would be the same as the ones above, except obviously your EW skill instead of an EW autosoft rating. also, the attack dicepool would be the same as the drone's above, except for replacing the targeting autosoft with the gunnery skill. for what i would probably call remote rigging (or, more likely, remote control or remote operation or control device, each of which appear in the rules somewhere but appear to be referring to the same thing), you would use your command CF rating instead of the drone's response rating, but otherwise your dicepools are pretty much gonna be the same as for jumped-in rigging. |
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Nov 18 2007, 07:50 PM
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#64
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 103 Joined: 21-August 07 Member No.: 12,814 |
Well, that's probably true, though I've wrestled long enough that I would argue the rules are just not clear enough. Rigging seems to take various forms, with the most applicable to drones being: - Jumped in, full VR control - Remote, giving a command and the pilot acts using its capabilities Those are the ones addressed by the FAQ and SR4 rules (p.238-239). In fact, in those pages, these are the only two options listed. - Remote, where you control a drone via the matrix but are trying to direct its actions, yet have not jumped in. This is on p.220, and seems more applicable to either non-drone devices (controlling an elevator) or using a drone in a way that is not normally covered (making a check to have a drone fix a car). I find this bit very confusing and probably should not apply to drones at all...
Well, I gave two sets of dice pools. For Remote, this is right out of the book for the various autosofts and actions a drone can take. The second set, Rigging by Jumping In, is from the FAQ.
Per page 162 and 239-240 SR4, a drone uses just Pilot + Targeting autosoft. The drone must have an autosoft for its weapon to attack. Characters (see p162) have the option of attacking with either passive or active targeting. Passive uses Gunnery + Sensor (as per the FAQ as well). If you want to spend a simple action using sensors to help, you can do active targeting and make a sensor test (I believe this is Sensor + Perception, assuming fully jumped in character) and any net hits are added to the Sensor + Gunnery test. I don't see anything that supports a drone getting to make a sensor test, nor do I see anything that allows an autosoft to be used with attach when jumped in. Please let me know if you see this otherwise - this is certainly confusing...
I can see that as a house rule for drones acting remotely. Without an infiltration autosoft in the rules, defaulting is probably right.
For remote rigging, I'm leaning towards EW Autosoft + Sensor or EW Autosoft + Pilot. Depends on whether it is more about the brain of the drone acting or the ability to sniff out the airwaves, as you wrote. I like what you wrote about EW Autosoft + Jammer rating if a jammer was being used. For jumped in, EW Skill + Sensor seems to go along with what the FAQ and rules are using for other cases. I think this is what you are saying as well?
I don't see any case where Command is used for checks, unless the GM thinks the command is hard to understand and a check is needed to ensure the drone will act out the command. Per the FAQ and rules, it seems there is generally a very different set of dice pools for jumping in vs remote rigging, but neither seems to need Command. I think Command is the essential background program on the Commlink that ensures commands (attack, come here, shut down) are understood and executed. Let me know what you think! Thanks for the reply. |
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Nov 18 2007, 08:35 PM
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#65
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
hmmm... i think you're still missing some things. first of all, it does say that you use pilot + targeting autosoft for drones to shoot. as far as i can tell, the implication under the sensor based targeting section is that when you aren't physically using the gunnery skill directly (that is, if it isn't the SR4 equivalent of a pintle mount) then you must use either active or passive sensor-based targeting. drones are not exempted from this. thus, your dicepool is either sensor + skill/autosoft + target's signature modifiers (plus all the usual attack modifiers) or it is pilot/response + skill/autosoft + net hits on a sensor test. it isn't innacurate to say that the gunnery dicepool of a drone is pilot + targeting autosoft, but under passive targeting it indicates that you replace the attribute (pilot) with the sensor rating instead. any reference to autosofts used while jumped in was in error... essentially, replace pilot and autosoft with response and skill whenever i am referring to rigging, and vice versa when referring to giving drones commands and allowing them to follow however their programming dictates (i will call the latter "captain's chair" mode, hearkening back to the days of SR3 and probably earlier too). i personally don't particularly feel the EW skill + sensor particularly makes more sense than EW skill + device rating or program rating, particularly since i am unaware of a time where the device or program wouldn't have a rating... in the event that it came up where there was no device or program rating, EW + sensor would work fine though, i guess. now then, on to what i would consider to be the most significant thing that you are missing (or at least, misunderstanding): the remote control option (wherein the command program actually has any use whatsoever) is used for directly controlling drones without rigging them in jumped-in mode.
as you can see from the above quotes (and some of the text around them which i am avoiding quoting to try to keep within fair use limitations) there is a method of controlling drones (and other devices, but drones are specifically mentioned) that does not involve either giving the drone orders or jumped-in rigging. officially, this replaces any attribute you might have used with the rating of your command program. my personal guess is that just as you use sensor instead of response when making a passive sensory-assisted gunnery attack, you should likewise replace command with sensor for such tests, but that would be a houserule (the same houserule should probably be applied towards sensor tests, btw). this particular method of control is inferior to jumped-in rigging in only two ways, one is the control rig (which can be replaced by simply taking codeslinger in the "control device" matrix action, but costs 8 BP more) and the other is the reduced threshold for vehicle tests iirc. it is better in that you don't risk biofeedback/dumpshockl, no upgrade of the drone's attributes is necessary, and arguably it even works on vehicles that are not rigger adapted but which do have a pilot rating (this depends on which side of the fence you sit on in regards to pilot rating = rigger adaptation). to get your dicepools for this purpose, simply replace the attribute you would normally use for jumped-in rigging, and replace it with your command rating. note that technically, the above quotes could also be used to justify remote-controlling agents to hack into places, but that's probably not intended. it also allows for an agent/IC to remotely control drones in much the same manner as a pilot program, with the exception that the agent won't be able to run quite as many autosofts before it starts to cost response. what this means is that technically a rigger could, instead of upgrading the drones and installing an expensive pilot program into them, he could have a centrally-located commlink (or 4) with agents equipped with command programs running the drones. this does of course have drawbacks (jamming removes the agent's ability to control the drones, for example) but it does make it significantly cheaper to lose a drone. hope that helped a little. |
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Nov 19 2007, 12:02 AM
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#66
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...OK, now my matrix specialist Violet (#55? - I'm losing count now & too lazy to look up previous posts) as several drones which she primarily uses for surveillance and scouting. She has upgraded/added autosofts on all of them as she has no Control Rig implant (since she has no vehicle skill). Her Command programme is rating 5 the autosofts are rating 4.
As I understand (and the way we ran it in our last session) when she issues instructions to one of the drones to operate independently it still relies on the rating of it's Pilot + any other applicable Autosofts, and not her Command programme. However, when she is directly linked, she uses her Command programme as part of the pool then? |
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Nov 19 2007, 12:14 AM
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#67
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
assuming you take over control without rigging, yes your command program would kick in. you would have to use your own skills though, so you should definitely stick with letting your drones control themselves imo =P
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Nov 19 2007, 12:27 AM
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#68
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...so to use command she still needs actual piloting skill in the type of drone?
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Nov 19 2007, 12:56 AM
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#69
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
well, if the skill can't be defaulted yes.
otherwise, you can use command -1. note, however, that with vehicle skills it is really easy to get them pretty good for remote controlling. note that all vehicle skills that have specialisations, have an available specialisation in "remote operation" afaict. so for really cheap, you can be rolling command +3 dice to control the drones. (the same applies to gunnery skill and "ballistic" specialisation btw) |
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Nov 19 2007, 08:27 AM
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#70
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 103 Joined: 21-August 07 Member No.: 12,814 |
Sorry, but I disagree. The FAQ makes it clear that when jumped in (which is what I think you mean by directly linked), you use: Perception Perception + Sensor Attack Gunnery + Sensor Defense Response Full Defense Dodge + Response Damage Resistance Body + Armor Infiltration Infiltration + Response Maneuvering Vehicle skill + Response Command does not play a role at all, except in the background (it is the program you need to run to issue commands, and in addition the GM can call for a Command test if the drone might have difficulty following a particular command). If anyone sees rules showing that Command plays a part in dice pools, please let me know. I don't see that anywhere! I'm trying to figure this out too, so I mean this all in good spirits. Thanks |
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Nov 19 2007, 09:24 AM
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#71
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 103 Joined: 21-August 07 Member No.: 12,814 |
Agreed.
Your interpretation disagrees with the FAQ: "The errata notes that jumped-in riggers use their own skills plus the drone's Matrix/vehicle attributes. What Matrix/vehicle attributes apply to attacking, defending, damage resistance, and so on? Here's an easy reference table: Attack Gunnery + Sensor" If you look at SR4 on the page I mentioned, you will see that the option of using passive/active is labeled as for "Characters", while the Drones and Gunnery paragraph that uses Pilot is only for drones.
I see that, but I think they are just saying that characters use Sensor, not Agility or Pilot. They aren't saying that drones use the rules in that paragraph. But I see what you mean, and I agree it is unclear. It is just that they start the Sensor Targeting section with "Characters can use the vehicle's Sensor Attribute to help with Gunnery", and since earlier on the page it makes it clear in Drones and Gunnery that "Drones attack using their Pilot + Targeting autosoft", that seems pretty clear that they aren't using gunnery and would not be subject to the later rules. They do get to make sensor tests (but not targeting tests) because they might have to spot a concealed target or distinguish the target amongst various potential targets.
Well, most things work as: Remote: Pilot + Autosoft (Sensor + Autosoft for perception) Jumped in: Skill + Sensor (Skill + Response in a few cases) Thus, EW Autosoft + Sensor works well for drones (though you could argue for Pilot instead of Sensor - the more I think about it the more I like Sensor). I should have written earlier that Jumped in it would be EW Skill + Sensor (I had written EW Autosoft + Sensor). If the issue is jamming, then the jammer rating needs to work in there. Either you handle it as a cap (which I don't like, because the rules don't work that way for other tests) or you swap in jammer rating for Sensor. So, that leaves us with: Remote EW: Sensor + EW Autosoft (Jammer rating + EW Autosoft if jamming) Jumped in EW: Sensor + EW Skill (Jammer rating + EW Skill if jamming) None of that is covered by the rules. And actually, technically jamming doesn't need rules, because jamming simply works at its rating, blocking any device with a signal rating below the rating of the jammer, automatically. So, we probably don't need to worry about it at all.
I don't disagree at all with what you are saying so far. BUT, there is a huge difference between saying that there is a way of controlling devices (including drones) for things like having a drone repair a car (which no stated autosoft would cover) and saying that this bit of mangled text is saying you use the Command program for everything!
Now we really disagree. I do see what you quoted, which says the Command program is used to issue commands, and that you can command all sorts of devices (a drone is a device). It also says that no test is needed in most cases, but something complex (like a drone fixing a car) can require a test. The example given is Mechanic + Command test. (Interestingly, this test is using the format of jumping in for the drone, which is the PCs skill + Autosoft!!!). I contend that the text on p. 220 is entirely broad and general and is being made to let players and GMs know that any device can be controlled and that if the rules don't otherwise cover the situation, then you can use Command to find out how well you manage to direct the device's actions. The alternative is that everything you can do has three different dice pools. For example, Attack would be: Jumped in, per FAQ: Gunnery + Sensor Commanded Drone, per p.240: Targeting Autosoft + Pilot Remote Device Control, per p.220: Command + Gunnery To me, that third one makes no sense, as you only use your own rigger skills when you are actively controlling the drone and jumped in. Furthermore, it would contradict the Gunnery skill description. It is also an option not covered under Rigging and Drones on p.238-240 (in fact, when it talks about controlling drones and issuing commands, it refers to p221, NOT to p220 where the bit about controlling devices is found). It is also just bizarre: I can jump into a drone, I can give it a command and it does it using it's capabilities, or I can sort of strangely control it with my skill but without being jumped in... all while being in the matrix... yeah, right.
All of which suggests it is a bad idea for game balance... ;) Maybe we will get lucky and someone official will read this and they will update the FAQ. Much about rigging is unclear, but the three paragraphs on p220 really need official clarification. It sounds to me like the bit about pilot and rigger adaptation - a bit of mangled text that should not be broadly applied where rules already exist.
Me too! :D |
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Nov 19 2007, 02:42 PM
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#72
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
The command program is used to give orders to a device; the execution of said order is left to the device.
So you need high command if you want to give complex orders. See it as bot control program for your FPS of choice. You need high Pilot/Autosofts/whatever to execute difficult orders. Difficult tasks might be assigned with rather simple instruction sets. |
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Nov 19 2007, 03:39 PM
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#73
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
For reference . FAQ
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Nov 19 2007, 03:46 PM
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#74
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...not when you have a mediocre reaction attribute. She is better using her command -1 because that comes to 4 dice (command 5). Also, I think that LTAs and the I-Ball are considered exotic vehicles so she would the unique skill in both. That is why I didn't make her a Rigger/Matrix Specialist. @Alphastream: no, just directly subscribed using her command utility. I believe I mentioned she does not have the Rigging implant. |
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Nov 19 2007, 07:22 PM
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#75
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 103 Joined: 21-August 07 Member No.: 12,814 |
I'm not sure I follow. So, are the options: 1. Jump in (rules are clear per the FAQ) 2. Issue command, drone carries out (what I've been calling remote rigging) (pretty clear per the SR4 book's section on autosofts) 3. Use AR and the Command program? If so, how does #3 work? Can we choose to use Command in place of autosofts? Or is it in place of something else? Can we do this with several drones at once or just one? Under #3, would the typical actions be: Perception: Command (Commlink program) + Perception? Attack: Command + Gunnery? Defense: Command + Dodge? Dmg Resist: Drone's Body + Drone's Armor? Inflitration: Command + Infiltration? Maneuver: Command + vehicle skill? Electr Wrfr: Command + Elec Wrfare skill? (to intercept, decrypt, jam - note that a jammer device is needed for jamming). Seems fairly broken to me. The drone completely falls out of the picture, meaning that a rigger using AR to command a medical drone to perform surgery would roll the same thing as a rigger using an attack drone or a GMC Bulldog van... :eek: and, a rigger could invest nothing in their drones (no expensive autosofts, no expensive Pilot and Sensor program upgrades) and get a better result with decent skills and a single command program. I'm trying to be open-minded on this. If that is the intention of the rules, then the minuses to doing this would be: - You must be using AR, so -2 dice as compared to jumping in (though no difference as compared to being in VR and having the drone do the action on its own with autosofts) - I think you would lose the 2 dice for using a control rig, since you are not jumped in (again, no difference vs having the drone act alone, but total of -2 dice as compared to jumping in) - The drone acts on your initiative (since you are directing it) and would only get one initiative pass because it is in AR, which is also your complex action. So, you can only do one thing and the drone as well. - You could not control more than one drone at a time, since you are spending a complex action to command the drone actively and it takes a simple action to command another drone. Any other drones would be using their own capabilities and carrying out previous orders. - GM could argue you are focused on the drone, suffering similar penalties to things like Perception while you actively command the drone. On the plus side, in addition to using Command and saving :nuyen: you would not suffer damage or dumpshock for damage inflicted to the drone. Thanks! |
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