 How to Start a Corporate War, Why extractions are suiciudally stupid. |
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 Nov 11 2007, 10:36 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 106 Joined: 10-April 06 Member No.: 8,447  |
I realized an incredible flaw in the extraction runs, especially unwilling extractions. Corporations when they hire Runner teams to perform extractions do so because they want to steal talent. While it may be possible to get away with say stealing a prototype or plans and claiming that they developed the technology independent of the other corps it is pretty damn hard to deny the fact that a leading scientest was kidnapped and ended up working for their corporation. If they track down any missing talent and find them in another megacorps possession, well I'm pretty sure thats grounds for an Omega Order.
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Nov 11 2007, 11:38 PM
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#2
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
That's a big if, and a big and, and you're forgetting the part where everyone does it. Omega Orders are a big deal. One smart guy changing hands isn't. |
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Nov 11 2007, 11:39 PM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 87 Joined: 11-September 07 From: Saeder-Krupp Rhine-Ruhr Regional HQ Member No.: 13,215 |
It's a matter of detente: I don't follow up on personnel that vanished from my roster and appeared in yours, and you reciprocate.
Corps are nothing if not pragmatic. |
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Nov 11 2007, 11:40 PM
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#4
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Target Group: Members Posts: 36 Joined: 9-November 07 Member No.: 14,105 |
It really depends on what happens to the guy, as there's plenty of ways to make sure noone ever finds out what happened. Just off the top of my head some plausible scenarios are:
1. Kidnap the talent, put them to work in a closed high security facilty with his family under threat. 2. Put the talent through brain washing/indoctrination camp, give him plastic surgery, spoof some records in the corp's own personnel files. Instant clean corporate drone. 3. Take the stereotypical egotistical genius, as seen in the movies: "I do not care who I work for or what's done with it, just let me do my research to prove my superiority to all my rivals" As for reasons not to persue an Omega Order, apart from the proof needed (which a brainwashed/threatened scientist will not give). There's also the nasty thing called legal precedent. Meaning that this would over time effectively wipe out all the corps, as they're all quite likely to try this sort of thing. In other words, it's part of the corporate game and you can be sure the entire corporate court is aware of that fact. Besides.. what would it do to the economy if AAA's knew the Omega Order was coming and took steps to take the rest with them? |
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Nov 11 2007, 11:42 PM
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#5
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
and, actually, it's pretty easy to deny the fact that a leading scientist was kidnapped. if i got to issue an Omega Order every time someone kidnapped one of my scientists, then anytime a scientist of mine voluntarily left me for another megacorp, i'd certainly claim he'd been kidnapped. that means that anytime you kidnap a scientist, you can claim that he came over voluntarily and that the corp you kidnapped him from is just crying wolf. ah, lies, the world would be so boring without you!
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Nov 11 2007, 11:42 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 341 Joined: 3-October 05 Member No.: 7,802 |
Also the scientist or whoever never speaks for himself, the corp speaks for him. Thus you try proving it was unwilling. It's a case of one corp's word against another's without evidence.
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Nov 12 2007, 12:38 AM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 7-October 07 Member No.: 13,604 |
If corp A has talent stolen by corp B and finds out, why bother with an Omega Order when suddenly corp A has the right to break into corp B and steal him and all sorts of other goodies back with no serious repurcussions?
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Nov 12 2007, 12:43 AM
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#8
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Just blow up a data center. Remember, this is shadow run, where nobody ever makes off-site backups.
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Nov 12 2007, 02:33 AM
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#9
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
think about it, what would happen if a similar action was performed by any side in the cold war?
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Nov 12 2007, 03:10 AM
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#10
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Actually, it doesn't matter if he is kidnapped or not. A scientist worth kidnapping will have an employment contract. That contract with be registered with the CC. Hiring corporations would be legally required to check the contract database before hiring and would be legally barred from hiring someone who has outstanding obligations and would be legally required to return him to the party that holds his contract. Kidnapping is a very minor offense compared to contract violation. If the damaged party learns of the offense it would sue the new employer in a Contract Court of appropriate jurisdiction. Usually, there will be a face-saving settlement which involves the kidnapping corporation buying its captive's contract at an inflated price, thus making the kidnapping legal and barring the employee from leaving the kidnapper until the contract expires. Sometimes, it will go to trial, at which time a judge will certainly order that the employee by returned to the legal contract holder and have the illegal employer compensate the contract holder for lost services. It really isn't something worth making a big stink over. Or, of course, they can just hire their own shadowrunners and kidnap him back. |
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Nov 12 2007, 03:40 AM
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#11
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
meh. all the receiving corporation has to do is show a breach of contract on the part of the losing corporation. it'll turn into a lawyer fight that will take years to resolve, during which time, the stolen scientist will be producing work for his new masters. and if, after almost a decade of deliberation, the receiving corporation is ruled against by the CC, they can just 'lose' their scientist, or just put a bullet in him. definitely worth the hassle. |
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Nov 12 2007, 03:40 AM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 192 Joined: 29-December 06 Member No.: 10,483 |
So you are saying there are runs to destroy the contracts for kidnapped personel? Unless they are keeping those contracts in Zurich orbital.
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Nov 12 2007, 03:51 AM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 341 Joined: 3-October 05 Member No.: 7,802 |
Extra territoriality makes problems I think. Imagine how awkward it would be today to get someone for contract violation if they're in another country from the original employer? Now imagine that country doesn't want to give them up?
Now this would only apply for the bigger corps, but given that their own laws rule on their own turf they are essentially a seperate country. I can imagine this being a legal nightmare. |
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Nov 12 2007, 03:51 AM
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#14
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
well, i imagine most contracts in SR are stored in duplicate at multiple locations in multiple formats to prevent that. but altering a few copies could cast doubt on the legitimacy of the contract, which can help a court case.
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Nov 12 2007, 03:57 AM
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#15
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
No, they lose the consequential damages too. And the discovery phase should be pretty cool. So they get to pay for the project that the scientist was working on that was disrupted, the likely profits from this, and interest. It gets very ugly. You can, if you look, find some roughly similar patent cases in which someone got to pay hundreds of millions of dollars. Plus if anyone one was killed they get to turn over the organizer, as it's going to be hard to explain how he ended up working for them if they didn't organize the kidnapping. Fortunately, the discovery phase would have already gotten that data into view, so the court would know who had organized it. And given how the corps control the media, it would be VERY public. |
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Nov 12 2007, 03:58 AM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 199 Joined: 11-September 05 Member No.: 7,729 |
Also, a surprising number of the world's top researchers and scientists have a nasty habit of dying in horrible accidents that leave no identifiable remains. The fact that another corp hired a guy with the exact same degrees from another instutution the very next day is completely coincidental. What do you mean 'It's the same guy!'? Professor Someguy's ID and credentials are iron-clad. They're all here in the computer for anybody to read.
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Nov 12 2007, 04:10 AM
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#17
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
sure, if you can prove it. if it comes down to it, you can just kill the scientist and then say he'd spent the entire time researching softer facial tissues. and hadn't gotten any results. all his actual research gets attributed to Doctor McFake, the receiving corporation's 'lead researcher'. |
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Nov 12 2007, 04:14 AM
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#18
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Contracts are ultimately handled by the Corporate Court, which all incorporated businesses are beholden to according to the Corporate Interactions Act . Most nations have signed the the Business Recognition Accords, which require them to enforce all corporate contacts, even those which would be illegal in the nation's territory. The penalties for flagrant violation of CC decisions would be very high.
Yes, which is why settlements are most likely. Lawyer fights will cost both corporations more than the scientist is worth. Lets say five 10,000 :nuyen: per hour guys working 8 hour days 5 days a week plus 40 1,000 :nuyen: per hour guys working 16 hour days 6 days a week (+ half overtime) for 10 years including appeals, two weeks vacation. That's a little less than 3 and a quarter billion :nuyen:, not counting expenses. Megas aren't going to use anything less than OJ caliber lawyers, even for traffic tickets. |
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Nov 12 2007, 04:16 AM
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#19
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Yeah, which is when a CC contract specialist shows up to ask detailed questions of many people. Coincidences don't tend to exist in their world.
And given how much R&D and science are collaborative efforts with researchers all over the world, exactly how would you expect soemone to actually do anything useful if you lock them in a room and tell them "do great things"? Or do you allow them to do interactive collaborations, live on-line meetings and show up at international conferences? |
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Nov 12 2007, 04:24 AM
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#20
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
IIRC, 1 :nuyen: = something like $5. And you don't have the everyone doing things all the time, the reason these things run for years are due to investigations and gathering evidence and appeals, all of which don't have the lawyers doing anything. As TOP corporate lawyer only rarely exceeds $1000/hr, your costs are several orders of magnitude too high. And the Megas employ GOOD lawyers, so it's just opportunity cost. That is, what else could our 5000 person corporate law department work on that would return us more money than getting all the money that that Xyz has ever earned for their product, tripled for damages, plus our legal costs, plus our R&D costs, plus interest. |
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Nov 12 2007, 04:28 AM
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#21
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
I imagine that there is an informal etiquette to corporate extractions and associated gentleman's agreements. The corp A expresses interest in employing dude B who works for corp C. Corp A attempts to enter negotiations to purchase dude B's employment contract from corp C. Corp C either agrees or rebuffs. Corp A makes a fair officer given the current market value of dude B's contract. Corp C refuses. Corp A makes a more generous offer. Corp C refuses. Corp A has him extracted and later informs corp C that they have him, offering once more to buy his contract. Corp C relents. |
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Nov 12 2007, 04:44 AM
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#22
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
eh? nonsense, that's not even physically possible. there aren't enough OJ-caliber lawyers alive to keep up with the number of court cases any single mega has going at any one time, much less all of the megas. besides which, your pricing is insane. 10k/hr is fine for high-end hired gun lawyers, but no corporation with half a brain is going to pay its own lawyers that much. and they're certainly not going to be working one case at a time. they'll probably be defending (read: delaying) six or seven extraction cases a year. |
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Nov 12 2007, 11:41 AM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 573 Joined: 17-September 07 Member No.: 13,319 |
As I imagine it, there is a very blurry line between routine competition, and escalation that could lead to major disruptive conflict "(you realize, of course, that this means war"). If Corp A really wants researcher B, and makes an offer, and the legit methods fail, and then arranges an extraction... maybe it all blows over; maybe it's settled out of court, with threat of Corporate Court action; maybe most of the Court was already annoyed at Corp A anyways and is itching for a pretext to fine them (with all kinds of ways to punish noncompliance); then again, maybe Corp A happened to extract the researcher from Corp C, and most of the court is unhappy with Corp C, and thus will side with Corp A out of spite regardless of the facts. An Omega Order is a big hassle and could result in major losses all around... then again, it could be darn profitable for whoever gets to buy up the assets of the target of the Omega Order, at fire-sale prices.
In otherwords: sometimes you think you're playing for low stakes and it turns out you're playing for high stakes; and third parties can complicate things. Also: Shadowrun is unpredictable and dangerous, except when it's boring and routine, except for the times when it's routine AND dangerous. Putting the extracted researcher into an isolated, secret lab seems like a good idea. See also Project Paperclip en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_paperclip A classic extraction scene from fiction happens in "Burning Chrome" by Gibson; see also New Rose Hotel www.lib.ru/GIBSON/hotel.txt |
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Nov 12 2007, 12:09 PM
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#24
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
That's a premise not actually covered by material. Why should corporations want to report who's on their payroll? |
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Nov 12 2007, 01:24 PM
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#25
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Remember that while each of the corporations actually functions as a command economy and a nation in and of themselves, publically each claims to be an individual actor in a truly free market. Which means that on the public side they have to claim to support free labor in addition to free trade.
Thus, coercive contracts and the virtual enslavement of scientists and wage earning button pressers is actually illegal. They "don't do it" and "wouldn't if they could because of their faith in the invisible even of the free market which rewards competition." So when Aztechnology loses a high value researcher to Ares, they can't go to the corporate court about it. Their "possession" of the scientist was a violation of CC law in the first place. -Frank |
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