 Do Trolls belong in SR?, Offshoot from the troll heavy weapons |
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 Nov 14 2007, 12:37 AM
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#101
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Immoral Elf  Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486  |
Right, when you compare the average troll to the very extremes of humanity, the discrepancy looks a lot smaller. The thing is that the world isn't peaches and cream for those extreme humans, and you are saying it is a trivial matter to add an extra foot an average to an entire sub-race. |
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Nov 14 2007, 12:42 AM
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#102
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
The issues affecting metahumans-all metahumans-with regards to their needs or size have been addressed in SR before (probably nowhere more than in the novel Changeling, but I digress). It's not something that is blithely skipped over, just not dwelt on overmuch. Games become a bit of a pain in the ass when your character has to roll damage because the ceiling fan clipped their horns again, nobody wants to take the flaw Hunchbacked because they grew up with a continual stoop and their back never straightened properly. Gamemasters might want to charge quadruple for shoes that could be used as hats by a pair of dwarfs.
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Nov 14 2007, 12:43 AM
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#103
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Voila! ;) |
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Nov 14 2007, 12:44 AM
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#104
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
not hats, flats, that's where the dwarven race gets the bonus against toxins and sickness from *g* |
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Nov 14 2007, 01:04 AM
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#105
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 941 Joined: 25-January 07 Member No.: 10,765 |
You have a very strange definition of Dignity. I mean, I can see... sort of... where you are coming from, but I suspect you have dignity confused with a backwards redition of 'respect' or something... |
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Nov 14 2007, 01:06 AM
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#106
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
I had a friend with acromegaly, who passed away some years ago. Anyone in the Seattle con scene about ten years ago would remember Ogre. He reported his own height as something over 7 feet tall.
Granted, Ogre was a skinny man; I probably weigh more than he did. But I remember walking with him down the Ave, going into stores and restaurants. He had to duck, but he didn't have any issues getting into buildings. I never saw him get out of a car, but I recall watching him try and sleep in a normal sized bed. Basically, I think some of the height problems are overstated. Ogre didn't have that much difficulty getting along on a day-to-day basis. When he did have difficulty, he managed it with dignity. Besides which, I would hazard a guess that the handicapped probably occupy about 1% of this country, and there's a large market aimed at them. Curb cuts and braille on ATMs (even drive-through ones, heh) are familiar sights nowadays; most shows are closed-captioned for the deaf. |
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Nov 14 2007, 01:07 AM
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#107
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
The world isn't peaches-and-cream for those people, but they're also completely playable is my point. Or to put another way, if Kareem Abdul Jabar can make it in the world at 7'2", then a guy can make it at 8'2". A single troll isn't going to make the world come crashing to a halt. Dealing with trolls as a portion of society is a different matter, but I don't think its an unworkable matter. Trolls might be unworkable in society, but that's an intentional facet of the game. Trolls not fitting in is where they fit in, if you follow me. They are designed thematically to be big scary monsters that don't fit into "human" society. The targets of prejudice, fear and discrimination. Trolls literally not fitting in is where they are supposed to be. Trolls are a 1% of the population that mainstream society does not aggressively court. If all the trolls got into a big boat and sailed away, mainstream society would be pretty relieved. That's why things aren't made for them, why apartments are too small for troll families, why cars are too small. At best, the corporations are willing to meet them halfway. "If you pay more, we'll make stuff made for you." This encourages trolls to stay in troll friendly neighborhoods, eat at troll friendly restaurants, go to troll friendly places. Its de facto segregation. Which is why I say trolls not fitting in is a civil rights issue, and not a problem with the game. |
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Nov 14 2007, 01:10 AM
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#108
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 573 Joined: 17-September 07 Member No.: 13,319 |
mfb: roger, thanks. Fortune: buh-whuh? in your campaign, or in BBB, or in previous editions, or where? By my totally-off-the-cuff estimates, humans might bellcurve as follows: 10% CHA 1 20% CHA 2 40% CHA 3 20% CHA 4 6% CHA 5 3% CHA 6 1% CHA 7 (Exceptional Attribute) How the heck do you take a troll range from 1 to 5, apply bellcurve, and get an average of 1? Fortune, you're smarter than that! As for the economics of making troll-size or troll-adapted gear: Evo is the only AAA with a nonhuman gear product line so notable that it's mentioned in the one-paragraph summary. Aztech may well market a Troll-Size Burrito; and there may well be an A-rated version (or successor) of the "Big and Tall" chain of clothing stores. On another hand, the profit margin of making troll-size gear is limited by the buying power of trolls, and I'm guessing that the total discretionary income of trolls does not support profitably mass-producing troll-sized luxury sedans, nor troll-sized Rating 4 cybereye systems. (But an adaptor to fit human-sized Cybereyes systems into troll eyesockets might be worth mass-producing if it's independent of Rating.) On yet another hand, if you're making stepvans, well, lotsa delivery companies prefer to hire drivers who can easily lift 100-kilogram boxes, so I bet that the troll-optimized Bulldog is in mass production, and that over 1% of Bulldogs are troll-optimized. I further speculate that 10% or more of Panther Cannons are built with troll users in mind, and that some military forces include all-troll Heavy Weapons units, with troll-sized barracks. (Perhaps with a status kinda like the 332nd Fighter Group of the US Army Air Corps, aka the Tuskegee Airmen: few others wanna socialize with them, but lotsa others ask for support from them.) |
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Nov 14 2007, 01:17 AM
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#109
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 941 Joined: 25-January 07 Member No.: 10,765 |
I mostly agree but: Trolls are, roughly speaking, twice as massive as a normally massive Shadowrunner (bulked up street sam, say). They are significantly taller, wider and... as I already pointed out, heavier. They are rewarded, mechanically, by having a massive advantage in strength and body stats, to the point where the mechanics of the game actually start breaking down regularly to accomodate them (troll anti-tank bows, for example, the Str/2 damage of most melee weapons on the opposite end, the rule broke to keep the trolls 'sane' at the expense of everyone else). There are no corresponding penalties assosiated with that extreme size. In fact, the penalties they get don't actually make much sense from an internally consistent point of view. Trolls are dumber just because? Trolls don't even find other trolls that attractive or charming just because? Its a 'balance' mechanic that doesn't begin to address the problems trolls should actually have. You know, massive penalities to stealth. That's just an obvious one. What about having a bonus to actually shoot them? That's another. Bigger targets are easier targets, you know. I did some competetive marksmanship a couple years back. 300 meter targets are mansized, 600 meter targets are, well, troll sized. |
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Nov 14 2007, 01:39 AM
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#110
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Because I don't apply the bell curve. Technically, neither does Shadowrun (none of those Charisma 1 trolls actually had to pay to offset that -2 penalty ;)).
Trolls get +4 to Strength, and nobody has problems considering that the average troll has a Strength of 7. Trolls get -2 to Charisma, hence lowering the average to 1. Works good enough for me, and that is pretty much exactly how it has worked in all the previous editions. |
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Nov 14 2007, 01:50 AM
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#111
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
you do, and it does. the bell curve is being applied before racial modifiers--in other words, it's assuming that the average troll has a Cha of (3 average -2 racial mod) 1. the actual curve after racial mods ends up looking more like a slide than a bell. such is the nature of gaming. |
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Nov 14 2007, 02:02 AM
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#112
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Well then, there you go. :) |
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Nov 14 2007, 02:06 AM
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#113
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
But in this edition, you don't apply a negative modifier at all, you simply have a lower maximum. So under the current rules, the average troll has an logic of 3, just like the average human. And there would actually be MORE logic 4 trolls than logic 4 humans in the sample set, because all the logic 5 and 6 trolls are logic 4 instead.
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Nov 14 2007, 02:11 AM
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#114
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Using that logic, the average troll will have an average Strength and Body of 3 as well. Metahumans pay for their Attribute modifiers through the cost of being, well, metahumans. |
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Nov 14 2007, 02:14 AM
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#115
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 7-October 07 Member No.: 13,604 |
Agreed. I doubt a troll would want a boardroom job. The point is that most of the places someone would absolutely need to go, from the subway to the stuffer shack, would be made large enough to accommodate a troll if necessary. I never meant to argue that every place would be troll accessible. I specifically cited retail stores and municipal buildings because those are the ones that trolls are most likely to end up at.
I also never meant that corps would be hiring trolls as secretaries. In fact, I can't think of a white collar job a troll would want. If that's the case, corps wouldn't be the offenders here. It's all about the retail.
Why would anyone make the same point over and over? That's simply a waste of time. If you want to rehash your arguments, be my guest, but I prefer to make new ones--or at least slightly different or more clear ones. I'd also like to say that I absolutely agree with you. I simply don't feel the need to handicap my creativity at the boundaries of canon. That would be a really silly for a roleplayer to do. In essence, my point is that I don't see the point of arguing the obvious. The setting doesn't specifically lay out the ways trolls functions because roleplaying is a creative game. Simply pointing out over and over that there's nothing in the book doesn't get us anywhere. Instead, our efforts should be made fleshing out for others the possibilities out there. It's the essence of inference: If it says A, but it doesn't say no to B, then there's no reason A should be all there is. |
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Nov 14 2007, 02:34 AM
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#116
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Target Group: Members Posts: 19 Joined: 26-October 07 Member No.: 13,895 |
This is an interesting point actually. Arguably, forcing troll characters to spend 30 BP to get to CHA 2 would make troll PCs more representative of the SR 'reality'. |
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Nov 14 2007, 03:11 AM
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#117
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
I do, actually. In my experience, those individuals with natural inclinations toward excelling in certain areas will usually not apply themselves to becoming world-class at it, but will practice enough to remain "pretty good" while devoting their time to other pursuits. I generally don't play that the average Ork or Troll dumps 3 points into their bonus attributes as a matter of course. It's my theory that given the number of metahumans that don't have their bonuses, they may only invest an additional 1-2 points. The larger the bonus, the less-inclined the individual to spend as many points to be really, really good at it. Or to put it another way, how many people have you known who were honestly really gifed at something who didn't devote their whole educational career to doing it, but devoted enough where they didn't have to work super-hard to stay above the curve, and spent a lot more time socializing? Maybe it's just me, but that describes some of my friends in college very well - they were in the upper eschelons of their department's GPA curve because they had natural talent, and spent the time other students would have devoted to studying to other pursuits, like socializing and learning to rock climb/play the saxaphone/bind books. (Those are all direct examples, yes). I'm not saying this is ABSOLUTELY true, and I'm not saying it's a perfect model, but I can't help but feel that since you can spend Karma to raise attributes, many trolls and orks who wanted to get by in the world without being looked at like they were some kind of beast might have spent the time ordinary humans spend getting 'fit' on things like learning how to be inconspicious, charming, or full of book learning. Just the way *I* tend to model 'average' stats. |
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Nov 14 2007, 03:28 AM
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#118
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Quite a few, actually.
But as you say, they had natural talent, and so are already in the upper reaches of the Attribute range to start with. I don't think that trolls are going to be less inclined to be couch potatoes than the rest of metahumanity. |
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Nov 14 2007, 03:36 AM
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#119
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630 |
I hear a lot of harping about trolls not having place... did you actually read the main rule book because it sounds like you missed the front area. Trolls may be the rarest of all metatypes but they aren't all that rare. Say Lone Star is questioning a witness and trying to get him to describe the runners. All the guy will be able to say about the Troll is. "One of the guys was a troll" Thats not really helpful. In my view most people won't be able to really tell the difference between two trolls. ANY runner who shows his face runs a high risk of being identified. Shadowrun mixes science fiction with fantasy. Thats why we have Elves, Dwarves and Orks. To round out that group you need a Giant. Lots of stories both Scfi and fantasy have the giant character. He may be a good guy or a bad guy but he's big and bad. The giant can be mean cruel and violent or gentle and a nice guy if you actually sit down and talk to them. Fezzik, The Russian(The Punisher series). The Hulk, Grundy, John Coffiee from the Green Mile would be another example of the Giant. Oh here's another famous giant we all love. Chewbacca. In RPG video games the Giant character is quite common. Runners want Trolls for the obvious reason, even with a low charisma a trolls size and physical stats they are big tough and scary. Having a troll says mess with me and my friend here will rip your arms out of your sockets. Get them some heavy body armor and you have a big tough friend who can protect you. I say the book is right in saying Trolls are in demand for employment as bouncers bodyguards and other security positions. If your a club owner in a bad neighborhood a troll bouncer is a blessing. Think about the typical security situation with the angry, drunk or otherwise disruptive customer. The troll comes over and asks "Is there a problem" while he cracks his knuckles. Most runners won't flinch at a troll unless your dealing with a sizable number. But typical NPCs should flinch at a troll. Its safe to say your typical troll is getting that +3 to intimidate for being physically imposing. The fact PC's put the 1 in charisma is there own power gaming. Fact is there is no penalty, you don't take the cap and assume the average is lower. You can take the minimum and assume the average is higher. For the grunts it says to change there metatype simply to add. Like to make a Troll ghoul add 4 to strength and body. (Ouchies). RAW: "Though stereotyped as stupid or frightening, trolls are no less intelligent or well mannered than other metatypes" |
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Nov 14 2007, 03:39 AM
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#120
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,629 Joined: 14-December 06 Member No.: 10,361 |
Here's some fluff.
The seeds are definately there in the fluff for GM's to role-play the life of a troll, but it's not necessarily forced. Perhaps it should be. A big part of the high-cost races (that's trolls and elves) is that the disparity of their attribute bonuses are very wide, but so are the social reactions of the general population. Elves are much less likely to be negatively descriminated against than a troll, and if it's a real risk, they can easily throw on a hat or a hood or a burka if need be and pass as a tall, thin human. A troll is a troll is a troll. You can't hide it, you're huge. Even the stats offer huge role-playing opportunities, as well as explain the stereotypes. Trolls just can't get high-flying corporate jobs. Or even middle-management, for that matter. Not just because of prejudice, even though that is HUGE, but because of Charisma and Intelligence modifiers. As the essay pointed out, a lot of the Charisma problem lies in their dental structure, also they have natural dermal plating and horns, which must not go down to well conversationally. Also, let's face it, they have it hard when it comes to intelligence, they often manage to have enough when it comes to streetsmarts "As long as he’s the one dishing out the punishment, he stays on top of the heap of street scum" (Troll Ganger Archetype [More fluff for you], but Trolls in educational environments have problems concentrating and retaining information. And the sort of social darwinism that would spring from these deficiencies would lead to racism and prejudice from some, and an equally damaging compensation from equal opportunity espousing sympathisers practicing forms of positive descrimination. Scholarships would be uncommon, but I'm sure "I'd be happy to give you the number of a reputable construction company that could use a healthy man like yourself" as well as courting's at various stages of life into gangs, some open minded or exploitative security providers, into being bouncers at clubs and maybe even military or police service (which would cause a right uproar if the Lone Star riot control cop that just broke your skull was a troll). Trolls would be extremely challenged to find any sort of respectable, intellectual work, not to mention the fact that it simply would not be ergonomical, considering their size. So they are relegated to the low-paying, out-of-sight-and-mind jobs involving straight physical labour (where you can bet they'd still be working under a human boss). This further relegates them into lower socioeconomic stratas of society, compounded with racial prejudice, and we begin to see why so many trolls play to the stereotype. When you are faced with a compromising situation, say you're refused a seat at a bar or bistro and you have little recourse in dealing with the situation amiably, given your general deficiencies in intelligence and charisma linked skills, what does your average troll decide to do? He takes the offending metahuman (and which metatype do you guess it is?) outside and pounds him into a puddle. Further re-inforcing the stereotype. Personally, I think Troll characters, both NPCs and players have strong opportunities for role-playing, if handled right. Personally I'm working on a Expat Israeli troll who was at first a pacifist, but during his time in the Israeli Military (compulsary year of service) he found the task particularly suited to him, due to his Troll attributes and naturally tactical mind, and although he spent most of his initial years serving as a quartermaster, he was brainwashed by the nationalist right wing quabalists and enlisted into Special Forces Ops for the IDF and Mossad, and as an older man, now living widowed with a jaded, spiteful daughter, trying to make a life for himself outside conflict and violence, is constantly pulled back into the Shadows by his violent past and aptitudes. He's basically a weapons specialist type character, mainly customising weapons for Shadowrunners and using his contacts to acquire milspec tech for Shadowrunners. |
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Nov 14 2007, 04:07 AM
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#121
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Actually, that is exactly what Shadowrun has done throughout its history (up till SR4, where I can't find an exact reference as yet). |
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Nov 14 2007, 04:26 AM
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#122
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,629 Joined: 14-December 06 Member No.: 10,361 |
I'm pretty adamant that in creating a troll character (in any pre-SR4) Editions a character creating a Troll character had to spend AT LEAST 3 Build Points in Charisma, and if they only spent that minimum they would get an attribute of 1. An Elf who spent 3 points of Charisma would end up with an attribute of 4.
So, if you disregard the exceptional Attribute edge (and cyberware and adept powers, of course), the maximum Charisma a troll could start the game with was 4 (spending six points). This is what we're talking about, right? So for averages, your average citizen has 3 of all attributes (except for the special attributes) and if you want to make your average metatype citizen, you apply the attribute modifiers, and yes the attribute modifiers so an average Troll does have a Charisma of 1. |
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Nov 14 2007, 05:01 AM
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#123
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Old Man of the North Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 10,563 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463 |
OK, gang, some of the above arguments appear to have logical flaws.
1) Some of the arguments so far work with random distributions of numbers. If you took the human range of values from 1 to 6, and averaged them, the average value would be 3.5, not 3. A whole mess of random rolls averaged would approach that value. If you took all the 5s and 6s and made them 4s as was suggested, the average would approach 3. If you restricted the rolls to a range of 1 to 4, the average would approach 2.5. None of these necessarily represents the way players would generate their PCs. Players will choose non-randomly to assign numbers to the affected Attributes according to their needs. There is no arithmetic or statistical phenomenon that forces a player to put a value of 1 into CHA. If a player wanted a PC to have a CHA of 4, they could have a troll with a CHA of 4. The fact the maximum of the range is 2 lower does not imply that the average must be 2 lower. The average value for CHA as assigned by players could be higher than 3, or lower than 3, or anywhere depending on the wishes and prejudices of players. It could be 4 if we all put as much into the Attribute as we could. 2) BP are assigned as the player wishes, and no subtraction occurs afterwards. You put 20 BP in at character generation, you get 2 points higher than the minimum. 3) The increase to the average value generated by the increase to the minimum value for trolls in other Attributes is not somehow nullified by the phenomenon in 1) above, as has been suggested. The range of values of 5 to 10 for STR or BOD, if randomly rolled, would approach 7.5. If you rolled 1s to 10s and treated all the 1s to 4s as 5s, the average would approach 6.5. Not 3, given 2) above, and the absolute lowest average value would be if all players added nothing to the base value, leaving 5. 4) As has been suggested, the whole troll relationship to the rest of us thing is up to the role playing of the players and the GM. Sure, there could be more fluff describing the problems, but do we really need help to figure them out? I don't believe so, but if I'm wrong, then what things should have been spelled out for us? Specifically what fluff should have been written but was not? Peter |
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Nov 14 2007, 05:54 AM
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#124
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Which is nothing but ridiculous PC bullshit. Trolls take active penalties to certain mental and social attributes -- they are quantifiably, unarguably, less intelligent and well mannered than other metatypes. |
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Nov 14 2007, 06:01 AM
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#125
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Metagamingly, all of the metahumans with attribute modiers have paid for those bonuses and penalties via their racial cost. Instead of forcing you to buy an attribute and then take those points away, they just folded the price into the racial cost and saved a step.
Anyone who denies that from a practical standpoint is just being a douche. |
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