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Tarantula
Funk made a point that trolls don't really fit in the SR universe, and rather than clog that thread up with it, I thought we could discuss it here.
darthmord
How so? I've never really had troubles with trolls in SR (though one time during a gaming session there was a voiced desire for bowling for trolls that involved a wrecking ball and a troll gang).
Dashifen
Here's the original post in the other thread:

QUOTE (DoctorFunkenstien)
My problem with trolls is that they're too large, too strong, too stupid, too unsubtle, and too underutilized in the setting. They don't really add anything to the game. Wipe them off the face of the planet and the only real footnote you might notice is the lack of the troll kingdom in the Black Forest (which, as we all know, plays a huge part in the setting... err, right?). Hell, I don't think I've even ever seen them depicted correctly in the art even once because they're that ridiculous in size.

Dwarves fill the short guy schtick. Elves the pretty boys. Humans the everyday hero. Orks the monstrous brawlers. Trolls... the larger, less interesting orks.


I can see what he's saying. I've rarely had anyone play a Troll that wasn't built as a death machine or a tank. While I think they certainly have a place in the world of Shadowrun, it does seem like they've been pigeonholed into the munchkin category.
Simon May
I have to say that having played with troll deckers and troll shamans, it's the non-combat trolls that really add to the setting. In addition, the variations are excellent for flavor: minotaur, fomori, etc. I know a lot of people complain that the metatype variations don't add anything to a game, but to me they really add local flavor to the populace in different areas, as well as some serious roleplay flavor to PC characters when used right.
Adarael
I loved one of my players' trolls.

French adept ex-spy who'd become a bum. He killed with an axe, most of the time. Totally fantastic.
Kyoto Kid
...the only trolls I had trouble with (as a PC) were ones who were mages, Damn hard to geek without having some kind of heavy weapon. Meanwhile, they could geek easily most mundanes with their combat spells.

As a GM the only place where I had an issue was during the last run of RiS due to the strong racial bias many nations in Europe have. Kind of hard to blend in with the locals when you're head & shoulders taller than everyone else.

Now as to Trolls filling different roles than the stereotype combat monster, I'm all for it. Hence the Troll Face I worked up (started as a joke, turned into a pretty decent character). In the old CCG I remember there was a Troll Rigger runner named Skidz.
Eryk the Red
Trolls are no more or less necessary than any other metatype in my game. I'm not sure I really understand the issue. They're extreme and different from other metahumans, but that's the cool part, in my experience. Most trolls end up as fighters of one type or another. That's natural; they're built for it. Elves make natural faces, too. It's true that the troll's advantages in their particular field is stronger, but I've never seen it as a probably. If anything, they leave my group wondering what orks are for, not the other way around. (Though we've had our share of good ork characters as well.)
Ancient History
And here I thought orks were the smaller, less interesting trolls.
Ol' Scratch
Orks have their own language, subculture, and even a rather famous and often-used and referenced area in Seattle. Trolls... are just there. Even their stats are just Orks +/-1-2 for the most part.
Cain
I've seen trolls fill a variety of roles: The Otaku troll was something interesting to behold, let me tell you. But any metatype can be pigeonholed very easily. In SR4, I've yet to see an elf who wasn't some variation of a conjuror, face, or quickness-monster. I can't recall seeing a dwarf at all, and only one ork archetype (the gunslinger adept), who may as well be human for how it's played.
Ancient History
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
Orks have their own language, subculture, and even a rather famous and often-used and referenced area in Seattle. Trolls... are just there. Even their stats are just Orks +/-1-2 for the most part.

Trolls have their own kingdom, the better metavariants, and don't give birth in litters...among other things.
Fortune
QUOTE (Ancient History)
Trolls have their own kingdom ...

You say that like it's a good thing. wink.gif
Tarantula
I'm surprised orks haven't become the military standard... what with the litter births.
Riley37
First, the straw man: the troll PC designed as unstoppable in combat, and *ridiculously* stupid and/or uncouth; sure, that's usually a headache and a warning sign that the player is looking for a "kick in the door, kill, loot" type story. Insofar as Doc Funk wants to go after *those* trolls, then I'm not gonna stand in his way. See the "punishing a character" thread with the hayseed troll named Bubba who carried his trollbow into Central Park (which spawned trollbow thread which spawned this one).

On another hand... Troll NPCs give the GM an option to either play to stereotype (the meet happens at a bar and the bouncer is a troll; reasonable to assume STR 7+) or against stereotype (the street doc is a troll with Cerebral Booster forehead bulge; LOG probably 4+, possibly maxed to 10).

My first and so far only Shadowrun PC is a troll. He's a rigger, and his largest Skill-based DP is Drive (specialized for Truck/Van, with Control Rig). INT 4, LOG 4, CHA 3, and he's done more "fixer" interactions with NPCs to develop contacts, gain allies, and gather intel, than the rest of the party combined. He has a secondary plotline of opposing an upcoming Sons of Sauron attack on a Dwarf/Ork warren, currently by buying a case of Striker missiles, booby-trapping them, and selling them to SoS. Could I do all this as an Ork? Maybe. Would his backstory and his interactions with PCs and NPCs be the same? Hell no!

He's the mechanic (and sometimes medic) for an Ork go-gang (Auto Mechanic at 4, specialized for motorcycles), and among Orks he has a distinct "with them but not of them" dynamic. Individually, none of them could match him toe-to-toe, but if he pissed off their cheiftain, they'd take him down. He's learned or'zet (with biker lingo) and is a skilled Goblin Rock drummer and they trust him more than they'll ever trust a "pinkie", but at the end of the day, he's still not one of them, and every interaction is tinged with the dynamic of physical difference.

If Doc Funk or anyone else wants to say "That is a bad option, and you should not have it, your game would be better if that PC design and backstory were OFF LIMITS", then I'm gonna disagree. I am having more fun, and so is my GM, than if we disabled the Troll PC option.
Fortune
QUOTE (Riley37)
... disabled the Troll PC option.

Doc doesn't want to disable the troll PC option. It is the race as a whole, and the fundamental problems that they would cause in society that is the problem.
ElFenrir
I think trolls are cool. I do admit, though, i find myself taking my trolls toward less combat-monster roles(i had one hunter, but that was about it). Funny thing is, from a mechanical, stat only standpoint, Trolls make excellent non-combat characters. Why? Sure you have to pay a little more for the mental or social stats(well, the 4 charisma cap is their harshest...the rest are capped at 5 and its not so bad), but you don't need to even touch their Body and Strength, while unlike a 1 Str/Body human, they WONT be blown away by a strong wind.

However, i understand how people see ''Big Body and Strength Must Always Mean Combat Monster'', like they see Elves high Charisma as ''Must Always Be A Wussy Mage or Face''.

Non-mechanically, Trolls are big, yes, but they have fit in society now since...well, goblinization, and I do actually find them pretty interesting; and i dont see why there isn't more done with them. They aren't all dumb, violent, brutish thugs, and i sort of wish they weren't presented always that way. I remember the troll in SR3 that described his race...if they were all as dumb as people thought, they'd all be dead from their own stupidity.

Having a small minus to a mental stat doesn't make you an idiot; the Orks have the same mental capability, save 1 extra max of Intuition(6 instead of 5). That's not a huge difference, yet Trolls are generally seen as ''dumb and dumber''. I see plenty of archetypes for fixit/mechanical/hacker orcs, but rarely trolls. Don't know why...
Whipstitch
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Nov 13 2007, 02:12 PM)
And here I thought orks were the smaller, less interesting trolls.

Damn, beat me to it. biggrin.gif

I've lost count of how many "orks" I've seen get rejected by my GM because all the players wished to do was use body and strength as point sinks so they could enter play with augmented attribute totals like 4/7/7/5/4/5/5/4 and then use their shiny 4 charisma, human looking and Tailored Pheromones to just pass as humans 24/7 anyway. It's not that my GM really wishes to force people to be any one particular stereotype or anything; we just got kind of tired of every new guy in the group attempting it at least once and thinking he was clever, as if it were the first time anyone ever happened upon the idea.
Ol' Scratch
Right. I couldn't give a fig about their stats for the most part. It's their size, their clunky addition to the setting, and their inapporiateness for shadowrunning (where stealth and subtlty are the key) that I don't care for.

Most of the time when someone designs a troll character, it's not because they actually want to play a troll, they just want to use their stats. Either to min/max or to "go against type" to "prove" how viable they are. It's rarely because they actually wanted to play a troll because, frankly, trolls are all but one-dimensional in the settle. Their "kingdom" is a forgettable little place in the middle of nowhere that really only ever comes up as a footnote "hey, they have a kingdom, see they're important!"

At least dwarves, the next least-flavored race in the game, have some interesting aspects about them. They're intentionally quiet and subtle, filling the roles that other races tend to shun away from because they're not very glamorous or exciting (such as technicians, administrators, janitors, etc.). They have a heavily implied fraternity with one another, lots of cultural if not actual history, and hey they even have their own "kingdom" too.

Trolls are just there for laughs or intimidation. When they come up -- including this thread -- people instantly start focusing on their stats, not their flavor and not how suited to the game they are. Which is why they're such a disappointment.

I mean, pretty much everything practical in the game seting has to have a troll exception for it, even if it gets hand-waved most of the time. Doorways, seating arrangements, reinforced floors, vehicle design, and... just about everything else.

That said, I *like* trolls in concept. They just don't fit in Shadowrun.

And, again, when the artists -- who rarely even bother staying within the confines of the setting or the rules, really -- hardly ever depict trolls as being as large, lumbersome, and overbearing as they, that says a lot about just how impractical they are.
Tarantula
The other problem with trolls, is who would bother upgrading doors, chairs, vehicles, and everything else to support them?
ThreeGee
QUOTE
it does seem like they've been pigeonholed into the munchkin category


Why is a tank munchkinny? One of my problems is this assumption that all SR games are like Missions Impossible, fast, silent ops that are over before Sec Ops have got there boots on. They're not and where never supposed to be.
HappyDaze
Trolls are also made even more conspicuous since they are typically a very small minority yet are very obvious. This certainly makes it easier to track down any particular troll (or the group that runs with them) if a setting is dialed to gritty.
Dashifen
QUOTE (ThreeGee)
QUOTE
it does seem like they've been pigeonholed into the munchkin category


Why is a tank munchkinny? One of my problems is this assumption that all SR games are like Missions Impossible, fast, silent ops that are over before Sec Ops have got there boots on. They're not and where never supposed to be.

It's not the archetype that makes something a munchkin, but the player of that archetype. I've seen well played tanks that I wouldn't call munchkins, but I've seen some tanks where the character concept is purely based around one specific thing: taking as much damage as possible. Such one-trick ponies are relegated, I feel into the realm of munchkin.
Tarantula
I'm just curious, what exactly makes a one trick pony? Doing one thing extremely well? Or doing one thing extremely well while not being able to do anything else remotely decently.

The first, just means they really are good at that one thing, the second, means they're a one-trick pony, as outside of their trick, they're screwed.
fistandantilus4.0
Doc I gotta disagree with you. Trolls may have difficulties on some shadowruns, but that doesn't mean that they don't fit Shadowrun as a game/setting. A big part of shadowrun is differences, whether it be race, magic, religion, crops vs street, and the haves vs the have nots. Trolls fill in a lot of those rolls. There are a number of times when they're relagated to the 'Half-Giant' role (borrowing from Darksun) or not really given more than their stats.

Hey, I'd be an example of one of your gripes with people playing an a-typical troll face just to prove it can be done. but if they're done with remembering just how big an impact their size is, especially if they aren't all stats, or have low physical stats, or better yet, are played with half a brain, they can be just as good in the game as the archtypal elf or random human. Don't type cast them man. Trolls are people too. smile.gif
Mercer
QUOTE (Tarantula)
The other problem with trolls, is who would bother upgrading doors, chairs, vehicles, and everything else to support them?

I see that as a civil rights issue, or as a dodge to a civil rights issue. A high class restaurant that doesn't want to allow trogs? I'm sorry sir, we simply don't have any chairs that can support you. Perhaps the McHugh's down the street would be better suited to your needs.

I don't use a lot of troll npcs, and I've never played a troll pc. (Never actually played anything but a human or an ork, but I'm the type of player that has one or two characters he plays for long periods of time rather than someone who makes a plays a lot of different stuff.) But trolls are supposed to be pretty rare anyway, aren't they? I haven't looked it up lately, but as I recall trolls and dwarves were the more rare metatypes, orks and elves being more common. So it makes sense that they're not that common, or that they don't have a lot of places that have been troll-modified.

Trolls not fitting into the world is one of the things I like about trolls though. The world wasn't in any way prepared for UGE or the Awakening, and while the metatypes were able to assimilate to some degree, that transition was the most difficult for the trolls. They didn't fit anywhere. They were monsters. As Batman said to Superman in the Dark Knight Returns, it can be dangerous to remind people that giants walk the earth.

So you have two types of trolls. One that rejects the stereotype and goes out of his way to prove he's not a monster, and the other that embodies the stereotype. You call me a monster, and I'll show you what kind of monster I can be. Cyberpunk owes a lot to Frankenstein, both the Doctor and his Creature.

On the other side of this, the idea of a "racial identity" is something I associate more with D&D than with SR. That is to say, I associate racial segregation in SR with its modern, negative connotation rather than the D&D idea of each race is its own culture.

Trolls not fitting into the world is what I think makes them fit into the game. I mean, they're designed not to fit in. Not being accepted into mainstream society makes it much more likely that some will find themselves in non-mainstream society. The Shadows are probably the closest thing to a true meritocracy in the game world, where itdoesn't matter what you look like or where you went to college. The thing that matters is how good you are at what you do.
HappyDaze
QUOTE
I'm just curious, what exactly makes a one trick pony?

QUOTE
the second, means they're a one-trick pony


So, not too much curiosity left there, eh? Following the Politician's Way of asking questions just so you can answer themyourself?

wink.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
Don't type cast them man. Trolls are people too.

It isn't the PC aspect for me. It is the setting. Think about the absolutely hideous expense that the owner of pretty much every single structure would have to incur to adapt all of those building to accommodate trolls even marginally. And that is just the buildings. Stuff like cars and all the little things (gadgetry or otherwise) that we take for granted nowadays would be a nightmare to adapt for regular troll usage.

And don't get me started on the troll-adapted guns, whereby we get a pistol frame twice normal size that still acts as a Streetline Special. ohplease.gif
Tarantula
More like stating my interpretation of the term, so that he can correct/agree when he answers my question.
Simon May
I have a good friend of mine who's 6'8 and massive. He doesn't fit into a lot of places. When an airline charged him for two seats because of his size, he took them to court. Not only did he get his money back, but the airline lost a lot of respect and business because of it. Fact is that while most places won't change to adapt to trolls until forced, public transport can accommodate trolls, large SUVs and vans can be adapted. Hell, my friend owns a mini cooper with the front seat removed and he can drive sitting in the back seat.

Point is that there are entire industries out there designed to make products for the very small and the very large. In the Sixth World, these are specialty markets in which the prices are higher and therefore there's more profit, so there would easily be competition and plenty of companies trying to get in. Imagine the number of jobs created for mechanics to adjust tech to the proper size.

We already deal with the very large and very small. Why would trolls or dwarves be any different?
ThreeGee
QUOTE
Why would trolls or dwarves be any different?


Particularly 60 years after they appeared.
Tarantula
Because trolls aren't just 6'8" and very large. 2.5 meters = 8'2". Thats as big a difference as your friend is to you, a troll would be to your friend.
Fortune
I have seen a lot of big humans, and I mean big, but none that even compares to the average troll as described in Shadowrun.
Ol' Scratch
Trolls aren't "very large." They're *monstrously* gigantic. Beyond the scope of a few small changes. The art does not depict them as large as they are described. They're not 6'8''. They're 8'-9' tall on average. They're not just a few pounds overweight, they weigh almost 700 pounds. And those are just typical specimens. Not the troll equivalence of your "6'8'' and massive" friend, let alone some of the metavariants.
mfb
Mercer, the problem is, the fluff doesn't really show them 'not fitting in' much. they don't even get the dignity of sticking out like the sore thumb they are; for the most part, they're just kinda ignored. they're just tagalongs to orks, culturally as well as in the perceptions of most players and writers. if their lack of fitting in was disruptive, that'd be one thing. but they don't fit in, and that fact doesn't disrupt anything--and that's the problem with trolls.
Simon May
The average ceiling is 8' tall. In a municipal building in the US, it's supposed to be 10' tall. At 6'2", I occasionally find myself ducking. I don't see why a troll can't duck or slouch a little most of the time.
mfb
dude, if trolls have to duck to avoid the ceiling, how in the world are they going to get through the doors without completely divesting themselves of their dignity?
Simon May
They're trolls. It's kind of rare to find one with dignity in the first place.
mfb
since when does having Cha 1 mean you think it's cool and fun to get down on your knees every time you want to go inside? and then there's cars--it wouldn't just be embarrassing for most trolls to try and get in a car, it'd be physically impossible. can your 6'8" friend fit into a Power Wheels toy, or one of those baby-shaking rides outside K-Mart? because those are both fairly apt comparisons.
Kyoto Kid
...the thing is they're not just tall, but big and bulky all around. Slouching or ducking down doesn't mean they will still fit through a conventional doorway, be able to go down a standard hallway easily, or be able to squeeze into a lift with a dozen other people.
Simon May
Given the amount of infrastructure damage (i.e. - New York Quake) and the fact that in 70 years, most buildings will be rebuilt if not rennovated, I don't see why the standard hallway wouldn't be 10' tall and big enough for trolls by then. I'm sure there will be plenty of civil liberties cases and lots of protests by the troll community, but after that first troll gang knocks your building down because you were an ass and wouldn't build the troll equivalent of a wheelchair ramp, I'm sure plenty of business owners would be hopping on the bandwagon.

The issue to me is that what's conventional now won't be conventional then. Making a doorway bigger or ceiling higher won't screw with humans. In fact, there's no reason why you wouldn't want to accommodate a troll, besides prejudice.
Fortune
And yet the setting fluff doesn't describe things as being that way. Most buildings outside of Downtown are not new, and are not described as having undergone the massive structural reinforcements necessary to accommodate regular troll usage.

Think of the size of Thing in the recent Fantastic Four movie (both bulk and height), then give him almost double the height (and a bit more bulk) ... that should be somewhat close to the average troll in size.
mfb
QUOTE (Simon May)
Given the amount of infrastructure damage (i.e. - New York Quake) and the fact that in 70 years, most buildings will be rebuilt if not rennovated, I don't see why the standard hallway wouldn't be 10' tall and big enough for trolls by then.

sure, in areas 'lucky' enough to have suffered significant widescale damage. in most places, though, they'll be using a lot of the same buildings that existed twenty, fifty, even a hundred years ago. and a lot of the new construction being done is going to be by Japanese interests. given that up until a few years ago, most Japanese metahumans were shipped off to a remote island, how many Japanacorp-built structures do you think will be troll-friendly?
Mercer
QUOTE (Fortune)
It isn't the PC aspect for me. It is the setting. Think about the absolutely hideous expense that the owner of pretty much every single structure would have to incur to adapt all of those building to accommodate trolls even marginally. And that is just the buildings. Stuff like cars and all the little things (gadgetry or otherwise) that we take for granted nowadays would be a nightmare to adapt for regular troll usage.

This is one of the things that keeps trolls marginalized in the game world. There are only a few buildings that can accommodate trolls, so that's where trolls (particularly the poor ones, who can't afford to buy and modify their own home) have to live. If a troll wants to rent a car, he has to rent the one troll-modified car they have and feel lucky they had that one. Its a way the (hu)Man(s) keeps the troll down.

I would agree that a troll's size has always been incorporated in a sort of half-assed mechanical manner. I mean, if they're twice the height of a human and four times the mass they should probably have pretty sick bonuses for Recoil and Concealability of weapons, and they should probably be using HMG's like assault rifles, and Panther Cannons like sniper rifles (which, come to think of it, most of the trolls I've seen in game do). That's a pretty simple fix mechanically, but my fear is it would exacerbate the problems with trolls being one-trick tanks. (And there's no exacerbating in public.)
Simon May
Not many, which is why Trolls don't often show up in those places. The barrens, night clubs, and restaurants will all be troll accommodating (business is business afterall), and I see no reason why a troll would want to go someplace which isn't going to be comfortable. If he does, then you've got a civil liberties case right there.

I'd also like to point out that you don't need widescale damage. If a business isn't big enough for trolls or is built specifically small, then trolls could easily target it for "unscheduled demolition." If they won't listen, make them understand without talking.
mfb
that would be fine, except that it doesn't happen in the setting. if the setting mentioned that troll-unfriendly establishments were frequently targetted by the Spikes and other trog gangs, that would be great. it would be giving trolls some culture, some voice, some spice. but it doesn't, so they don't. which is the whole problem.
Simon May
In my game, they do. And I don't even have a troll PC playing.
mfb
that's great for your game. it doesn't help the setting in general, though.
Simon May
If I can do it, so can you.
Stahlseele
Trolls are NECCESSARY for the Setting . .
Elves and Dwarves are pretty much accepted and barely different from Humans regarding society . . Orcs went off and build their own society below the one that shunned them and are at least on a good way to be treated the same . . they even got orc poserz(sadly, not the ones from WH40k) like the elves do! . . Trolls are different . . and they are proud about it . . they are too big to actually fit in . . and they are way too big to be ignored . . they are basically what society does not want to see . . and they are loud and obnoxious and straight into your face about it too . . especially in a setting like shadowrun such a thing is needed in my eyes . . in a purely fantasy setting where everything is more or less village style they'd probably be just as incorporated into the rest of society . . but in the glass and chrome world of the sprawls, in the shut off enclaves of the usual run of the mill wageslave they need to be seen from time to time, to remind people that there is a different world out there . .
Fortune
QUOTE (Simon May)
If I can do it, so can you.

That's all fine and dandy and all that stuff, but we aren't talking about having to adapt our games to accommodate trolls. That should already have been reflected in the setting descriptions and fluff.

We are talking about how these humongous humanoids, who make up more than 1% of the population (making that figure up 'cause I'm too lazy to look wink.gif), not all of whom are poor and stuck in the Barrens, cannot even fit through the doors of most places, let alone sit in even remotely similar chairs, or easily use the same small and intricate electronics, or ... And how this is in no way illustrated in the general fluff and fiction (and even most of the rules).
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