Funk made a point that trolls don't really fit in the SR universe, and rather than clog that thread up with it, I thought we could discuss it here.

How so? I've never really had troubles with trolls in SR (though one time during a gaming session there was a voiced desire for bowling for trolls that involved a wrecking ball and a troll gang).

Here's the original post in the other thread:

I have to say that having played with troll deckers and troll shamans, it's the non-combat trolls that really add to the setting. In addition, the variations are excellent for flavor: minotaur, fomori, etc. I know a lot of people complain that the metatype variations don't add anything to a game, but to me they really add local flavor to the populace in different areas, as well as some serious roleplay flavor to PC characters when used right.

I loved one of my players' trolls.

French adept ex-spy who'd become a bum. He killed with an axe, most of the time. Totally fantastic.

...the only trolls I had trouble with (as a PC) were ones who were mages, Damn hard to geek without having some kind of heavy weapon. Meanwhile, they could geek easily most mundanes with their combat spells.

As a GM the only place where I had an issue was during the last run of RiS due to the strong racial bias many nations in Europe have. Kind of hard to blend in with the locals when you're head & shoulders taller than everyone else.

Now as to Trolls filling different roles than the stereotype combat monster, I'm all for it. Hence the Troll Face I worked up (started as a joke, turned into a pretty decent character). In the old CCG I remember there was a Troll Rigger runner named Skidz.

Trolls are no more or less necessary than any other metatype in my game. I'm not sure I really understand the issue. They're extreme and different from other metahumans, but that's the cool part, in my experience. Most trolls end up as fighters of one type or another. That's natural; they're built for it. Elves make natural faces, too. It's true that the troll's advantages in their particular field is stronger, but I've never seen it as a probably. If anything, they leave my group wondering what orks are for, not the other way around. (Though we've had our share of good ork characters as well.)

And here I thought orks were the smaller, less interesting trolls.

Orks have their own language, subculture, and even a rather famous and often-used and referenced area in Seattle. Trolls... are just there. Even their stats are just Orks +/-1-2 for the most part.

I've seen trolls fill a variety of roles: The Otaku troll was something interesting to behold, let me tell you. But any metatype can be pigeonholed very easily. In SR4, I've yet to see an elf who wasn't some variation of a conjuror, face, or quickness-monster. I can't recall seeing a dwarf at all, and only one ork archetype (the gunslinger adept), who may as well be human for how it's played.

I'm surprised orks haven't become the military standard... what with the litter births.

First, the straw man: the troll PC designed as unstoppable in combat, and *ridiculously* stupid and/or uncouth; sure, that's usually a headache and a warning sign that the player is looking for a "kick in the door, kill, loot" type story. Insofar as Doc Funk wants to go after *those* trolls, then I'm not gonna stand in his way. See the "punishing a character" thread with the hayseed troll named Bubba who carried his trollbow into Central Park (which spawned trollbow thread which spawned this one).

On another hand... Troll NPCs give the GM an option to either play to stereotype (the meet happens at a bar and the bouncer is a troll; reasonable to assume STR 7+) or against stereotype (the street doc is a troll with Cerebral Booster forehead bulge; LOG probably 4+, possibly maxed to 10).

My first and so far only Shadowrun PC is a troll. He's a rigger, and his largest Skill-based DP is Drive (specialized for Truck/Van, with Control Rig). INT 4, LOG 4, CHA 3, and he's done more "fixer" interactions with NPCs to develop contacts, gain allies, and gather intel, than the rest of the party combined. He has a secondary plotline of opposing an upcoming Sons of Sauron attack on a Dwarf/Ork warren, currently by buying a case of Striker missiles, booby-trapping them, and selling them to SoS. Could I do all this as an Ork? Maybe. Would his backstory and his interactions with PCs and NPCs be the same? Hell no!

He's the mechanic (and sometimes medic) for an Ork go-gang (Auto Mechanic at 4, specialized for motorcycles), and among Orks he has a distinct "with them but not of them" dynamic. Individually, none of them could match him toe-to-toe, but if he pissed off their cheiftain, they'd take him down. He's learned or'zet (with biker lingo) and is a skilled Goblin Rock drummer and they trust him more than they'll ever trust a "pinkie", but at the end of the day, he's still not one of them, and every interaction is tinged with the dynamic of physical difference.

If Doc Funk or anyone else wants to say "That is a bad option, and you should not have it, your game would be better if that PC design and backstory were OFF LIMITS", then I'm gonna disagree. I am having more fun, and so is my GM, than if we disabled the Troll PC option.

I think trolls are cool. I do admit, though, i find myself taking my trolls toward less combat-monster roles(i had one hunter, but that was about it). Funny thing is, from a mechanical, stat only standpoint, Trolls make excellent non-combat characters. Why? Sure you have to pay a little more for the mental or social stats(well, the 4 charisma cap is their harshest...the rest are capped at 5 and its not so bad), but you don't need to even touch their Body and Strength, while unlike a 1 Str/Body human, they WONT be blown away by a strong wind.

However, i understand how people see ''Big Body and Strength Must Always Mean Combat Monster'', like they see Elves high Charisma as ''Must Always Be A Wussy Mage or Face''.

Non-mechanically, Trolls are big, yes, but they have fit in society now since...well, goblinization, and I do actually find them pretty interesting; and i dont see why there isn't more done with them. They aren't all dumb, violent, brutish thugs, and i sort of wish they weren't presented always that way. I remember the troll in SR3 that described his race...if they were all as dumb as people thought, they'd all be dead from their own stupidity.

Having a small minus to a mental stat doesn't make you an idiot; the Orks have the same mental capability, save 1 extra max of Intuition(6 instead of 5). That's not a huge difference, yet Trolls are generally seen as ''dumb and dumber''. I see plenty of archetypes for fixit/mechanical/hacker orcs, but rarely trolls. Don't know why...

Right. I couldn't give a fig about their stats for the most part. It's their size, their clunky addition to the setting, and their inapporiateness for shadowrunning (where stealth and subtlty are the key) that I don't care for.

Most of the time when someone designs a troll character, it's not because they actually want to play a troll, they just want to use their stats. Either to min/max or to "go against type" to "prove" how viable they are. It's rarely because they actually wanted to play a troll because, frankly, trolls are all but one-dimensional in the settle. Their "kingdom" is a forgettable little place in the middle of nowhere that really only ever comes up as a footnote "hey, they have a kingdom, see they're important!"

At least dwarves, the next least-flavored race in the game, have some interesting aspects about them. They're intentionally quiet and subtle, filling the roles that other races tend to shun away from because they're not very glamorous or exciting (such as technicians, administrators, janitors, etc.). They have a heavily implied fraternity with one another, lots of cultural if not actual history, and hey they even have their own "kingdom" too.

Trolls are just there for laughs or intimidation. When they come up -- including this thread -- people instantly start focusing on their stats, not their flavor and not how suited to the game they are. Which is why they're such a disappointment.

I mean, pretty much everything practical in the game seting has to have a troll exception for it, even if it gets hand-waved most of the time. Doorways, seating arrangements, reinforced floors, vehicle design, and... just about everything else.

That said, I *like* trolls in concept. They just don't fit in Shadowrun.

And, again, when the artists -- who rarely even bother staying within the confines of the setting or the rules, really -- hardly ever depict trolls as being as large, lumbersome, and overbearing as they, that says a lot about just how impractical they are.

The other problem with trolls, is who would bother upgrading doors, chairs, vehicles, and everything else to support them?

Trolls are also made even more conspicuous since they are typically a very small minority yet are very obvious. This certainly makes it easier to track down any particular troll (or the group that runs with them) if a setting is dialed to gritty.

I'm just curious, what exactly makes a one trick pony? Doing one thing extremely well? Or doing one thing extremely well while not being able to do anything else remotely decently.

The first, just means they really are good at that one thing, the second, means they're a one-trick pony, as outside of their trick, they're screwed.

Doc I gotta disagree with you. Trolls may have difficulties on some shadowruns, but that doesn't mean that they don't fit Shadowrun as a game/setting. A big part of shadowrun is differences, whether it be race, magic, religion, crops vs street, and the haves vs the have nots. Trolls fill in a lot of those rolls. There are a number of times when they're relagated to the 'Half-Giant' role (borrowing from Darksun) or not really given more than their stats.

Hey, I'd be an example of one of your gripes with people playing an a-typical troll face just to prove it can be done. but if they're done with remembering just how big an impact their size is, especially if they aren't all stats, or have low physical stats, or better yet, are played with half a brain, they can be just as good in the game as the archtypal elf or random human. Don't type cast them man. Trolls are people too.

More like stating my interpretation of the term, so that he can correct/agree when he answers my question.

I have a good friend of mine who's 6'8 and massive. He doesn't fit into a lot of places. When an airline charged him for two seats because of his size, he took them to court. Not only did he get his money back, but the airline lost a lot of respect and business because of it. Fact is that while most places won't change to adapt to trolls until forced, public transport can accommodate trolls, large SUVs and vans can be adapted. Hell, my friend owns a mini cooper with the front seat removed and he can drive sitting in the back seat.

Point is that there are entire industries out there designed to make products for the very small and the very large. In the Sixth World, these are specialty markets in which the prices are higher and therefore there's more profit, so there would easily be competition and plenty of companies trying to get in. Imagine the number of jobs created for mechanics to adjust tech to the proper size.

We already deal with the very large and very small. Why would trolls or dwarves be any different?

Because trolls aren't just 6'8" and very large. 2.5 meters = 8'2". Thats as big a difference as your friend is to you, a troll would be to your friend.

I have seen a lot of big humans, and I mean big, but none that even compares to the average troll as described in Shadowrun.

Trolls aren't "very large." They're *monstrously* gigantic. Beyond the scope of a few small changes. The art does not depict them as large as they are described. They're not 6'8''. They're 8'-9' tall on average. They're not just a few pounds overweight, they weigh almost 700 pounds. And those are just typical specimens. Not the troll equivalence of your "6'8'' and massive" friend, let alone some of the metavariants.

Mercer, the problem is, the fluff doesn't really show them 'not fitting in' much. they don't even get the dignity of sticking out like the sore thumb they are; for the most part, they're just kinda ignored. they're just tagalongs to orks, culturally as well as in the perceptions of most players and writers. if their lack of fitting in was disruptive, that'd be one thing. but they don't fit in, and that fact doesn't disrupt anything--and that's the problem with trolls.

The average ceiling is 8' tall. In a municipal building in the US, it's supposed to be 10' tall. At 6'2", I occasionally find myself ducking. I don't see why a troll can't duck or slouch a little most of the time.

dude, if trolls have to duck to avoid the ceiling, how in the world are they going to get through the doors without completely divesting themselves of their dignity?

They're trolls. It's kind of rare to find one with dignity in the first place.

since when does having Cha 1 mean you think it's cool and fun to get down on your knees every time you want to go inside? and then there's cars--it wouldn't just be embarrassing for most trolls to try and get in a car, it'd be physically impossible. can your 6'8" friend fit into a Power Wheels toy, or one of those baby-shaking rides outside K-Mart? because those are both fairly apt comparisons.

...the thing is they're not just tall, but big and bulky all around. Slouching or ducking down doesn't mean they will still fit through a conventional doorway, be able to go down a standard hallway easily, or be able to squeeze into a lift with a dozen other people.

Given the amount of infrastructure damage (i.e. - New York Quake) and the fact that in 70 years, most buildings will be rebuilt if not rennovated, I don't see why the standard hallway wouldn't be 10' tall and big enough for trolls by then. I'm sure there will be plenty of civil liberties cases and lots of protests by the troll community, but after that first troll gang knocks your building down because you were an ass and wouldn't build the troll equivalent of a wheelchair ramp, I'm sure plenty of business owners would be hopping on the bandwagon.

The issue to me is that what's conventional now won't be conventional then. Making a doorway bigger or ceiling higher won't screw with humans. In fact, there's no reason why you wouldn't want to accommodate a troll, besides prejudice.

And yet the setting fluff doesn't describe things as being that way. Most buildings outside of Downtown are not new, and are not described as having undergone the massive structural reinforcements necessary to accommodate regular troll usage.

Think of the size of Thing in the recent Fantastic Four movie (both bulk and height), then give him almost double the height (and a bit more bulk) ... that should be somewhat close to the average troll in size.

Not many, which is why Trolls don't often show up in those places. The barrens, night clubs, and restaurants will all be troll accommodating (business is business afterall), and I see no reason why a troll would want to go someplace which isn't going to be comfortable. If he does, then you've got a civil liberties case right there.

I'd also like to point out that you don't need widescale damage. If a business isn't big enough for trolls or is built specifically small, then trolls could easily target it for "unscheduled demolition." If they won't listen, make them understand without talking.

that would be fine, except that it doesn't happen in the setting. if the setting mentioned that troll-unfriendly establishments were frequently targetted by the Spikes and other trog gangs, that would be great. it would be giving trolls some culture, some voice, some spice. but it doesn't, so they don't. which is the whole problem.

In my game, they do. And I don't even have a troll PC playing.

that's great for your game. it doesn't help the setting in general, though.

If I can do it, so can you.

Trolls are NECCESSARY for the Setting . .
Elves and Dwarves are pretty much accepted and barely different from Humans regarding society . . Orcs went off and build their own society below the one that shunned them and are at least on a good way to be treated the same . . they even got orc poserz(sadly, not the ones from WH40k) like the elves do! . . Trolls are different . . and they are proud about it . . they are too big to actually fit in . . and they are way too big to be ignored . . they are basically what society does not want to see . . and they are loud and obnoxious and straight into your face about it too . . especially in a setting like shadowrun such a thing is needed in my eyes . . in a purely fantasy setting where everything is more or less village style they'd probably be just as incorporated into the rest of society . . but in the glass and chrome world of the sprawls, in the shut off enclaves of the usual run of the mill wageslave they need to be seen from time to time, to remind people that there is a different world out there . .