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Stahlseele
if anything, elves should be removed . . i mae it a point for most of my spellslingers to have one of those kill every member of species yxz honed to elves in his repertoire . .
Fortune
That's cool, but in-character feelings aside, elves overall do actually add quite a bit to the Sixth World (Just the fact that you go to the trouble of making their existence a very real part of your non-elven characters goes a long way toward illustrating that point). The same can't really be said to anything like the same degree about trolls and dwarves.
Stahlseele
QUOTE
The same can't really be said to anything like the same degree about trolls and dwarves

aside from the fact that those two are in fact my two favorites when playing, no, not really . .
I just really hat elves . . heck, all of my characters get racism against them at least at 3 for free . .
Critias
QUOTE (Stahlseele)
aside from the fact that those two are in fact my two favorites when playing, no, not really . .
I just really hat elves . . heck, all of my characters get racism against them at least at 3 for free . .

It's okay. Different people express their jealousy different ways.
Stahlseele
jealousy? what would i have to be jealous of? O.o
Riley37
QUOTE (Critias)
Different people express their jealousy different ways.

Or their thwarted desire. Ever seen 14-year-old boys, who have new and confusing feelings towards girls, that they manifest by teasing girls, making an even bigger point of the boys-only treehouse, snapping the backs of bras.. not by, say, holding hands, and thus risking rejection?

Me, I'll admit openly that I dig the hot elf chicks, and I wish that they dug me the same way, but ain't jack I can do about it, because they can and do have the elegant, graceful elf boys. That's competition I can't match.
Riley37
QUOTE (Stahlseele)
if anything, elves should be removed

More seriously, there is a difference between killing elves, and editing them out of existence.
The former results in elf corpses, which some of us find tasty.
The latter gives us unclaimed territory on the map where the Tir nations were, and changes or eliminates the Harlequin story, and takes away anyone who might personally remember the Horrors and what (if anything) works against them, or at least how to survive until the mana level drops.

As an aside, what if, in a highly alternate, variant 6W, *all* humans express a nonhuman metatype, until there are none left? would the surviving metatypes miss them?
HappyDaze
QUOTE
The latter gives us unclaimed territory on the map where the Tir nations were, and changes or eliminates the Harlequin story, and takes away anyone who might personally remember the Horrors and what (if anything) works against them, or at least how to survive until the mana level drops.

If you want to remove Elf Superiority aeb the existance of IEs, just do what I did: IEs are not Elves - they are Free Spirits with Realistic Form. Not all actually take on Elf forms, but most do. They have existed since the last magical age. Now the IE vs. Dragons thing can continue along with the other IE storylines, but the Elf emphasis is taken back a notch.
Critias
QUOTE (Stahlseele)
jealousy? what would i have to be jealous of? O.o

The fact Elves matter in the metaplot, have multiple adventures, setting books, Threats hooks, novels, and major NPCs to their name, maybe? Have two in-game kingdoms that are referenced in more books than not? Have connections every other race (but dragons) lack to previous Ages of magic, and were the first to have their own language in Shadowrun? How many trolls are counted as among the fifteen or twenty most individually powerful NPCs in the setting? Top fifty? Top one hundred?

Or -- to look at things from another perspective -- maybe you and quite a few other Elf haters are just jealous of the fact Elves are "humans, but better." They don't have any innate attribute negatives. They come with a few stat bonuses most people would regard as big positives in real life (grace and style rule the world, and are thrown in our faces day in and day out in popular media), they live forever (or at least "way longer than you"), and there are no built in drawbacks (even just being the butt of short jokes, excessive body hair, or having your face at crotch level all the time, nevermind actual tusks and horns and warts and bony protrusions).

To be honest, I was making a joke at your expense -- hah hah, the joke said, no one hates Elves except people who are jealous of them -- but the point stands. Most people that think Elves are lame OOC think they're lame because they're overdone, or boring (since they have no or few drawbacks). I imagine most people that hate them in game think so for many of the same reasons, but on a far more personal level.
Stahlseele
i mostly hate elves 'cause they are all cutesy and arrogant . . and most people play them as such, no matter what, even if they have NO reason to do so . .
Trogs and Dwarves are in my Eyes good fellas who like to party . . kinda like the WH40K Orcs *g*
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (JBlades)
It seems that the real reason behind the founding of both Tirs as more to do with building a power base for IE from the ED era when there was a racial identity than any real modern need.

...i just wish in North America they would have chosen somewhere else than Oregon to form their little aristocracy. Maybe Jersey, or Ohio, or Indiana would have been better. Would have been interesting to see how Portland fared in the NAN.
Kagetenshi
Why?

~J
Critias
A news article about just how sexy weird skin deposits are, about an Indian fisherman who is called "the three man" on account of weird roots growing out of him. It's kind of freaky-weaky, so don't click the link if you don't want to.

But, man, are those +1 Body dermal deposits sexy, or what?!
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Why?

~J

...considering that I live there in RL...personal reasons. Would like to have seen how the local tribes would have fared had it been their land (which it is historically speaking) rather than that of a bunch of racist Celtic wannabe elves.

hmmm....maybe an interesting alternate campaign setting. grinbig.gif
Tarantula
QUOTE (Critias)
A news article about just how sexy weird skin deposits are, about an Indian fisherman who is called "the three man" on account of weird roots growing out of him. It's kind of freaky-weaky, so don't click the link if you don't want to.

But, man, are those +1 Body dermal deposits sexy, or what?!

You know, I posted this on the SR4 board just a couple days ago, and hardly got comment on it.
Spike
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Why?

~J

...considering that I live there in RL...personal reasons. Would like to have seen how the local tribes would have fared had it been their land (which it is historically speaking) rather than that of a bunch of racist Celtic wannabe elves.

hmmm....maybe an interesting alternate campaign setting. grinbig.gif

The problem is, really, that it is all 'their land' if you go back far enough. Other than the difference in time lines, it would not be so different from some of the Assyrians living in Kirkuk, Iraq rising up and claiming all of the middle east is 'their land' by right, because they owned it before the Arabs did.

I can just imagine Italy laying claim to the entire mediterranian basin on account of Rome....

Kyoto Kid
...well seeing that most of the other major NA tribes managed to get their lands back, why should those in Oregon be treated any different?

The Elves who formed the Tir were even more "johnny's come lately" than the previous anglo Oregonians. They came in, took over and pushed the natives out and built that confounded wall around Portland to keep the "dirty folk" from spoiling their pristine little aristocratic wonderland.

The one good thing about the crash of '64 is that their little fantasy world finally came tumbling down.

[...Mr Surehand, Tear Down This Wall...] grinbig.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Nov 16 2007, 05:22 AM)
...well seeing that most of the other major NA tribes managed to get their lands back, why should those in Oregon be treated any different?

They did? You might try looking around for any of the east coast tribes sitting pretty on their traditional lands, but you'll probably be searching a while. And then there's the Navajo ...
Spike
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
...well seeing that most of the other major NA tribes managed to get their lands back, why should those in Oregon be treated any different?

The Elves who formed the Tir were even more "johnny's come lately" than the previous anglo Oregonians. They came in, took over and pushed the natives out and built that confounded wall around Portland to keep the "dirty folk" from spoiling their pristine little aristocratic wonderland.

In keeping with general recent trends around here, I am very very tempted to spin off a thread about attitudes towards 'land ownership' and how this applies to the Sixth World.

It would even include a story about how a big pack? Gang? Army? Murder? of Trolls just strolled into an otherwise unremarkable section of land and threw all the non-trolls off and declared it 'trolltown'. Just to keep it relevant wink.gif

Land, far more than other things, truly only belongs to the man holding it... while he holds it. A more practical way to treat 'land ownership' would be 'land use'.

The farmer doesn't claim the land, he claims the crops he grows on it. Just as valid a claim to prevent random herds of cattle from munching his work as claiming the land itself, a thing he did not actually create.


This implies that once his lands have grown past his ability to cultivate them, he can no longer lay a meaningful claim upon them, and lands that lie fallow are 'fair game' to a more industrious individual.

What a different world it would be.

Or....

Not.
Kyoto Kid
...OK OK, I'll admit I didn't like what My Oregon became under the "Council of Prissies". Would've much rather seen it turned over to NA hands like the former Washington State was.

...just my two Zlotys worth.

[edit]

QUOTE (Spike)
In keeping with general recent trends around here, I am very very tempted to spin off a thread about attitudes towards 'land ownership' and how this applies to the Sixth World.

...not a bad Idea.
Cheops
All I have to say is that FTBT and FOBO teams can kick the snot out of FEBE teams any day of the week--and do it with Cyberpunk Style!
CircuitBoyBlue
Oregon WAS part of the NAN. The elves worked within the NAN framework to get it. They got the NAN as a whole, and the S-S council in particular, to embrace metahumanity (I think that's where the "Sidhe" comes from, which means "faery" in Gaelic, I belive?), while at the same time getting all those metahumans to take a segregationist stance and concentrate their population in Oregon. It's not that the tribes in Oregon didn't get their land back, it's just that they didn't have a strong enough presence on the Salish-Sidhe council to resist efforts to turn it into an ethnic enclave for meta-immigrants from around the world.

Also, when I say "the elves" orchestrated this, I might only mean a human named Walter Brightwater. Depends on whether or not you believe in the elfy metaplot. Personally, I had fun with Harlequin, but if you took the whole module out of Shadowrun, I wouldn't miss it. Same with horrors, and Dunklezahn. I much prefer to believe that the Awakening was actually the start of something new, rather than just Earthdawn with guns.

[ Spoiler ]


And yes, I hate elves. Mostly because I hate elf fanboys. But also, I don't like that one metatype gets so much more spotlight than all the others. If there's going to be multiple Tirs, plus Sinsearach, plus multiple Elven neighborhoods in Seattle, and probably most other major cities, I don't think it's that big a stretch to have one, just one, Troll neighborhood in Seattle, where they can make the ceilings as high as they like, and the sidewalks extra wide, and all the issues people keep bringing up here can be addressed. And yes, I realize that someone's probably about to point to a passage in some book that I've owned for 15 years and never noticed before that says there IS a Troll neighborhood in Seattle, but it deserves to get more emphasis. And this could all apply to dwarfs, too (they DID have a neighborhood, before the orcs took it, but you'd think they'd have found somewhere else).
DWC
Don't have any books here in my office, and the details are hazy, but isn't there a dwarven enclanve in or under San Fran?
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (CircuitBoyBlue)
I much prefer to believe that the Awakening was actually the start of something new, rather than just Earthdawn with guns.

..and high technology.

I agree. I never even heard about Earthdawn until I discovered DS & that was some 15 or so years after I first stared playing Shadowrun regularly. Now that I've seen the effect of the metaplot involving IEs & GDs, I find myself longing for the old Neo-Anarchist days when NA influences were more prominent and the corps were the bad guys.

...maybe time to pull out all that old 1e stuff that's been collecting dust on my bookshelves for the last decade & turn back the clock a few years. grinbig.gif
Stahlseele
basically the dwarves help(ed) with the orc underground but ke[e]p(t) digging deeper untill they had their own cellar appartment beneath the orcs. .
Cheops
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
QUOTE (CircuitBoyBlue)
I much prefer to believe that the Awakening was actually the start of something new, rather than just Earthdawn with guns.

..and high technology.

I agree. I never even heard about Earthdawn until I discovered DS & that was some 15 or so years after I first stared playing Shadowrun regularly. Now that I've seen the effect of the metaplot involving IEs & GDs, I find myself longing for the old Neo-Anarchist days when NA influences were more prominent and the corps were the bad guys.

...maybe time to pull out all that old 1e stuff that's been collecting dust on my bookshelves for the last decade & turn back the clock a few years. grinbig.gif

Sorry to break your heart but it was the metaplot from SR1 that actually laid the groundwork for ED (which came out in 1993). Bottled Demon springs to mind instantly.
Stahlseele
yeah, ED is kinda to SR what Episode 1 to 3 is to Star Wars . . more or less *g*
Riley37
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaves_to_Armok_II:_Dwarf_Fortress

There are probably dwarven enclaves in many places.
Dwarf/Ork alliances might be uneasy but might benefit from synergies too.

Wow, that is so *not* LOTR, dwarf/ork alliances.
Cain
QUOTE (Stahlseele)
yeah, ED is kinda to SR what Episode 1 to 3 is to Star Wars . . more or less *g*

notworthy.gif
martindv
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Nov 14 2007, 06:38 AM)
Trolls really are a lot like gorillas. They can rip a steel belted radial in half with their hands and they can outrun world class sprinters. But they are as a people shy and live in the woods more often than not. And like gorillas, or orangutans, the world wouldn't be that different if they weren't around. But the world would be diminished with their passing.

How so? It's not like trolls have contributed to anything in SR except for the one who was the head of Humanis pre-Loose Alliances.

I mean, I wouldn't even stop to look at the ones caged in a zoo like I would for a great ape. It's not like they're Sasquatches. Those things are cool.
Cheops
QUOTE (Stahlseele)
yeah, ED is kinda to SR what Episode 1 to 3 is to Star Wars . . more or less *g*

That's a little unfair to both Star Wars and ED. Earthdawn is probably one of the best, if not the best, fantasy settings that there is out there right now. It manages to have classes without it feeling like D&D and have managed to take the SR framework for magic and turn it into something that feels very different.

And Episode 1-3 are actually really good if you tune out that whiny bitch Haydensen. Thank god he thinks acting is too fake and has decided to retire.
Lagomorph
RE: size
Unfortunately, in the SR that I imagine, trolls are pretty much treated like handicapped, there's the one Troll booth at mchughs, a higher class restaraunt will have a few troll sized chairs and table. Municipal and new construction buildings have a seperate troll entrance. Old buildings are impossible for trolls to use safely (floors and walls not rated for their weight, height or width)

RE: removing from setting
Luckily most of my players don't play trolls, so they're pretty much NPC's. But it is unfortunate that they really don't get a spotlight once in a while. I think that it would be a pretty interesting community project to write up some fluff on trolls and troll society, but my writing and project management skills are zero, so I'm not going to step up to the plate about that one.

QUOTE (Cheops)
Thank god he thinks acting is too fake and has decided to retire.
Well, thats funny, I thought his acting was too fake as well. At least we're all in agreement about this.
Spike
QUOTE (Cheops)


And Episode 1-3 are actually really good if you tune out that whiny bitch Haydensen. Thank god he thinks acting is too fake and has decided to retire.

that's odd, I swear I saw him in that movie coming out with Alba... the medical one 'Awake' or some shit. Hard to tell, since they refuse to linger on anything in the new style teasers long enough to actually see anything.


Further: Hayden's biggest problem as an actor was working for George Lucas. The man simply doesn't know what to do with actors at all, and doesn't seem to care.

Shit, no one is calling Natalie Portman a bad actress, but I damn near wrote her off for good during the trilogy period (okay, I do know one site that thinks she's overrated and can't do accents, but they still credit her with a modicum of talent)
Fortune
QUOTE (Spike)
that's odd, I swear I saw him in that movie coming out with Alba... the medical one 'Awake' or some shit.

Yep!

Awake
Adarael
QUOTE
That's a little unfair to both Star Wars and ED. Earthdawn is probably one of the best, if not the best, fantasy settings that there is out there right now.


Iron Kingdoms. Such a shame it's D20, because the world is fabulous.
Fortune
QUOTE (Adarael)
Iron Kingdoms.

Why? What is so good about it that you would rank it so high?
Jack Kain
If Trolls never get the spotlight in your game blame the GM.

Instead of bitching about do they belong in SR or not why not turn this discussion into writing a place for them. Give them some spot light.
FACT: Trolls exist in shadowrun they fit into the world because the original creators of the game put them there.
Does Bioware belong in SR?
Does Nanoware?
How about magicians who use Intuition instead of logic or charisma.

You could remove Orks and port everything about them onto Trolls.
Both Trolls and Orks share a similar problem. Monstrous features. Orks may have the center stage of goblin rock but I'd say one could assume Trolls are a part of that to. To me Orks and Trolls are like cousins outcasts for many of the same reasons.


In the SR timeline wasn't King George the VII supposed to have been killed after he began changing into a troll.?
With out Trolls Goblinization would just be called Orkization.

FACT: Orxploitation includes is about both trolls and orks.

From wiki.dumpshock.com
Orxploitation is a fad and cultural phenomenon that surfaced in 2064, coinciding with the widespread use of Or’zet, the new “Ork language.� When Ork rockers such as CrimeTime and Orxanne started incorporating the nascent language into their lyrics, the popularity of Ork rockers and Ork bands skyrocketed. The media corporations were quick to pick up on this trend, and started hiring and producing Ork and Troll music wholesale, saturating the market with both goblin rockers and Or’zet “enhanced� music. In 2064, nine of the top ten albums of that year were made by Ork rockers and bands. During this time, the amount of tusk and fang operations also increased, both due to cosmetic styling and the fact that Or’zet is difficult to pronounce without the natural tusks of an Ork or Troll, leading to the creation of the new rabid fanboy, the “ork poser.�

Now lets look on whats written about the "Ork" Language
also taken from wiki.dumpshock
Or'zet is uniquely suited to the dense jaw and throat structure of Orks and Trolls, incorporating deeper, gutteral sounds. Also, pronounciation is difficult without tusks. Thus, it is difficult to correctly speak the language for those who are not Orks or Trolls.

I think it is worthy of note that Or'zets is uniquely suited for both Orks AND Trolls.

Now how rare are trolls, I get the impression you guys think there like one in million. THERE NOT!.
In Seattle they may say have only 2% of the 4,000,000 Population. Which is only 80,000.
But say Chicago has a Troll population of 11% thats a couple million trolls out of the whole 20 million.
HappyDaze
QUOTE
FACT: Trolls exist in shadowrun they fit into the world because the original creators of the game put them there.

Yes, perhaps... but like so much else in SR (like cyberdecks and limiting toxics to shamanic traditions) , perhaps they need to be rethought. Just because the original writers thought trolls were a good idea doesn't really make it a ood idea.

The rest of the troll fanboy stuff made me laugh. nyahnyah.gif
mfb
QUOTE (Jack Cain)
FACT: Trolls exist in shadowrun they fit into the world because the original creators of the game put them there.

just because something is written into a story or fictional setting doesn't mean it fits there. there's such a thing as bad writing, after all.
Glyph
QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (Jack Cain)
FACT: Trolls exist in shadowrun they fit into the world because the original creators of the game put them there.

just because something is written into a story or fictional setting doesn't mean it fits there. there's such a thing as bad writing, after all.

Yeah, but there's only bad writing in other things. There's no bad writing in Shadowrun! If you feel otherwise, then every single troll out there, and Nadja Daviar's dark brown nipples, await your lavish apology.


Trolls are a vital and integral part of the Shadowrun setting. Trolls are the only metatype who can properly pull off the orange mohawk and zebra-striped pants look. Elves can try, but they only look silly. Look at the cover to Cannon Companion, and the wide-eyed human behind the troll. You can tell that he's thinking "Whoa! That guy's a troll! Trolls are soooo cooool!!" love.gif
Dender
I played a troll in a denver game (denver, for those of you who haven't read bug city, is descibed by the people living in Chicago as weird.)

He was every bit the urban survivalist. Almost "Lotek", cept for just enough cyber to keep him alive and dangerous. But I had no misconceptions. He did not fit in polite society. When he went to bars, he stood. When the team ran boarders, he was sprawled in the back of the van or hoofing it through the sewers. And when there was a fight, he was expected to lead the charge through the door. (actually, was usually expected to lead the charge through a window or wall, but thats neither here nor there really). And he was smart for a troll.

Smart. For a troll. Things that need to be remembered.

Trolls, as I see them, were built so that they DO NOT FIT in the world. Literally. Go out, find someone over 6' 6". Ask them if they've considered getting a Ford Focus. People these days who weigh 300+ lbs barely fit into society, despite the high rate of obesity. Double that, and you approach a troll's level of mass. This is not as callous or mean as it may seem, this is coming from having a family member of that weight class who expressed these issues. Chairs break, people stare and treat you differently (even friends and family), stuff doesn't fit you, and the stuff that does fit usually looks stupid or is hard to find/expensive.

Its something that a GM can and should play up. That the "drawbacks" of playing a hulking death machine are that everyone expects you to be a deathmachine, that there generally WON'T be a seat available for you at Stuffer Shack, and that people will get pissed if they have to ride in an elevator with you. If the RP aspects aren't enough for you as a GM, add on an availability modifier and/or a notoriety modifier for being a troll. But if you're going to go there, consider adding in larger "troll sized" weapons. My personal favorite is the bear hunters side arm.

The stereotype that a Badass Combat Troll always rides a big mean ol' bike or a truck isn't just a convenient stereotype. Its cause they can't get their fat asses into most cars!

And i still say "troll modified pistol" does not just mean tearing out the trigger guard.
Cain
QUOTE

Trolls, as I see them, were built so that they DO NOT FIT in the world. Literally. Go out, find someone over 6' 6". Ask them if they've considered getting a Ford Focus.


I have, sorta.

My friend with acromegaly, who I mentioned earlier, never complained about door sizes or fitting into cars. He was just used to it. Granted, Ogre wasn't the type to complain about much, but he didn't say a word about it when we rode in my 84 Honda Civic. He was squished, but he could deal.

I've only got him to base things on, but I belive he was the rule, not the exception. In reading interviews with Kareem Abdul Jabbar, I don't see a lot of complaints about a small world.
Tarantula
Again, you need to almost double their weight, and add another foot or two on top of how tall they were. Not to mention nearly double width too.
Cain
Again, Andre the Giant. He might have been short for a troll, but he was nearly the right weight, and probably close to the right width. One of the most suprising things about him was that he never complained about things neing too small; at least not to anyone who recorded things about him.
DTFarstar
I am personally 6'6-6'8(I've got spine problems and on bad days hunch alot. Developed when I was younger and wandered around hunching so I wouldn't seem quite so freakishly tall and always looking down so I didn't step on or kick someone- no I'm not kidding, when you are a foot and a half taller than someone and you are looking directly ahead ) I don't ride in cars much, I have to duck under alot of doorways and I've gotten hit in the head with ceiling fans more times than I care to count. It is annoying, and in smaller buildings my shoulder do brush the walls and I've had to turn sideways to walk through a door before. It is kind of annoying, but it's just like. Generally if you are big, you've been big your whole life and it is just kind of the way of the world.

Chris
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Cheops)
Sorry to break your heart but it was the metaplot from SR1 that actually laid the groundwork for ED (which came out in 1993).  Bottled Demon springs to mind instantly.

...not aware of that. For a good part of my time playing SR I lived in a town where you were lucky to find the SR core rulebook and maybe the SSC. Actually ran through Bottled Demon & just saw it as another SR module. Spirits, demons, seemed all the same, they were things you couldn't take down with an Ingrahm. These were things a Mage or Physad with a weapon focus was to deal with.

The GMs I played under back then were far more into the NA and corporate fluff.

Even had I learned about ED I wasn't about to dump even more of my meager finances at the time into another game system, particularly when the rest of my gaming circle didn't appear to care (or know) about it.

We all get out of the game what we like. I have seen so many different preferences as to what people on this forum like and dislike in the game. I am primarily into the tech, corporate, and political (national) intrigue angles. I could give a devil rat's hoop about the machinations of IEs and GDs and have ran good campaigns without them.

The developers encourage coming up with alternate campaign settings. So why is the concept of making the former Oregon territory be part of the NAN instead of a closed door elven community any more "ridiculous" than setting SR back in the 1950s, or WWII or in the Cthulu mythos as others have suggested doing?

...or has SR/ED canon become carved in stone gospel? indifferent.gif

[/derail]
Critias
Fine. Then go make your own setting where Portland's in the NAN. No one's telling you not to, they're just letting you know that the changes you're suggesting really can affect the metaplot quite a bit. If you want to do it, do it. But understand and/or acknowledge it's a big change, not just some trivial hand-waving thing the way you initially made it sound.
Kyoto Kid
...if it's consistent within itself it is not mere "handwaving". It is a "what if", an experiment to see how the world would be different. As long as the players understand and accept the setting, there is no issue. I have been in several original "non canon" campaigns and even ran a few, both in SR and in other game systems, which have been highly successful. Yes it is a big change but therein is the challenge.

...it's only a bloody game.

...further debate on this issue should be relegated to PMs
Critias
Oh no, bold text!

You're the one being defensive. Again -- no one's saying don't do it. No one, to be honest, probably cares very much. Honest. Alternate settings are cool, whether you're talking comics or RPG campaigns. I created one where all this crud went down in WWII, personally. Seriously.

Make it, if you want to make it. Folks were just letting you know how deep some of the roots of the IE/GD metaplot are, that's all, and that they go waaaaay back even into the "golden era" of SR1 (so you'd have to comb through even stuff like published adventures, to make sure you didn't hit any snags during the setting-change, and cause a snarl in the time/space continuum or whatever). No one's telling you not to do it (I'm sure lots of us would like to read what you cooked up), or anything. They were just being informative, so you'd know what a big job it would be to remove all those IE/GD machinations, many of which hinge on the Tir.
DTFarstar
Oh, by the by, I'm not skinny, but for someone who is 6'6 or 6'8 and barrel chested, you know broad shoulders all that. 300 pounds really isn't much. I mean again, I'm not skinny, but I'm not body builder either, and the only way I ever dropped below 300 pounds was starving myself to the point that I lost muscle mass. The BMI is bullshit beyond very average sizes. It doesn't scale well. Not only do I have alot more bone- thicker than average as well to deal with the extra weight strain.(Bones DO reinforce themselves in response to stress) Bigger bones means longer thicker muscles needed to control them. It all adds up. I would guesstimate that a healthy weight for me should I stay at the same level of muscle mass would be around 295-290. 20-25 pounds below what I am. Yet according to the BMI I am morbidly obese. So, they really don't have to be as wide as you think, just proportional, to reach that mass.

Chris
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