...more likely, you move to a different neighbourhood.

That would be fine if there were 1 in like 5 or 10 thousand. But when there is (again roughly) 1 in every hundred, then it needs to be addressed.

I apologize for missing this post the first time around, mfb. I just missed it.

I would agree that trolls are by-and-large (no pun intended) ignored in the fluff-- or that their difficulties are. I could make the case that the difficulties the average troll faces are simply not highlighted by the in-game media, and most sourcebooks are written from that perspective. But honestly, I think its just a case of oversight. Trolls are a certain size, this would create certain problems for them and the world, and no one has really gone through and tried to figure out how far reaching those problems would be or what they'd cost to solve.

Which is understandable. At one point in a homebrew game I was working on, I came to the realization it wasn't necessary for me to come up with an economically and scientifically viable plan for colonizing Mars. That wasn't what the game was about, it was a post-apocalyptic cowpunk science-fantasy that happened to be set on Mars. Shadowrun really isn't about the trials and tribulations of trolls as they try to make it in mainstream society. Its there in the background, and its fun to speculate on (as we're doing now), but its not really what we're interested in when we sit down to play.

I think its a pretty easy fix either way, if you think it needs to be fixed. Either incorporate the trolls not fitting in more, or make them a little smaller. Actually, they already shrank trolls a little in SR4-- they're listed as standing 2.5 meters tall in the SR4 book, down from an average height of 2.8 meters in SR3. They're big, but they're not exactly Godzilla lumbering through downtown Tokyo. And they have an average weight of 300 kilos in SR4. The way obesity is going in the US, that's probably not that far above a lot of humans.

Also, I said trolls were twice the height and four times the weight of humans, but the book lists them as about half again as tall, and two to three times as heavy, so they're smaller than I thought. I mean, we're talking about them being about a foot or so taller than the tallest humans; that's big but its not elephant big. (Although a troll riding an elephant would be a cool sight. Elephant jousting. Take that Medieval Times!)

Edit: I wanted to add, it seems odd to write trolls out of the setting because they're 1' too tall.

basically the same with dwarves . . ever seen a child try and use a big chair? think about it that way . . with trolls it's about like a big man using a little chair . . both will have problems, the one getting into the chair, the other getting out of the chair . . honestly, think about it for a second . . if we say that a dwarf is between 1 and 1,5m tall . . they can walk below most tables i know . . they will never be able to use an elevator just like trolls can't because they won't be able to reach most of the buttons . . dwarves don't add much either and they are still there . . humans and elves mostly don't want to do the job of the combat monster or the street tough who can go around without some big people saying things like:"'ey blondie . . you got's a purdy mouth . ."

It's not just the height. It's the bulk. It's the over-sized hands. It's the leg room required in cars and under tables. It's a tremendous number of little things.

Right, but they don't demolish every piece of furniture they sit on. Accommodating dwarves into the setting is quite a bit easier than it is for trolls.

Hey, don't trivialize the size of their things!

*shuders* eeewww . . no matter how much i love trolls(no, not in that way . . okay, i made a pretty cute design once. .) i did so not need that mental image x.x . .

That's the dude. He was in the movie Princess Bride (a must see see if you haven't already!)

i'm not actually for writing trolls out of the setting. completely the opposite, really--i want them to get their moment in the spotlight, the way orks did (with maybe a tetch less of the "orks are people--black people" focus). i don't think trolls should be written out of the setting, but i think they could be without any real effect. trolls, right now, are part of SR because they're part of SR. whereas elves are part of SR because they're part of SR and their racial identity has sparked a number of plot points and they fit the 'thin and pretty' racial slot. dwarves are part of SR because they're part of SR and they fit the 'short guy' racial slot. orks are part of SR because they're part of SR and they've got a strong racial identity (now) and because they fit the 'big guy' racial slot. trolls don't have that and, or if they do, their ands are filled by orks.

I think you see this as a crisis and I as an opportunity. (Well, those terms drastically overstate the importance of the discussion, so let's substitute "problem" for "crisis" and, well... "opportunity" is fine for my end.)

Trolls, literally, do not fit into polite society, and polite society is pretty happy about this. Racism is a part of the Shadowrun world, and the issue of a troll's size is the concept of racial segregation made into a practical problem. To quote from my SR3 book (since that's the one within arm's reach):

I can see the point that the isolation and marginalization of trolls isn't brought up that much in the game, but most of the time its a game about criminals doin' crime, not fighting for racial equality. It's there, but its not the sole or even the main focus of the game.

I'll admit that Buffy the Vampire Slayer declined in later seasons (non-sequitor much?), but even at its low points it had flashes of brilliance, things that worked even if the larger arcs didn't. One of those moments for me came in late 5th season, when Buffy asks Spike to protect Dawn. He says he'll do it because, "I may be a monster, but you've always treated me like a man."

I've always had a lot of sympathy for monsters. The Creature from Frankenstein, Quasimodo, even Cyrano de Bergerac. Trolls are monsters, but they are also men. I think the game would be poorer without them.

Then you have absolutely no idea what you are missing. Princess Bride is in no way a 'chick flick'.

I thought we were discussing trolls; do you want a new thread for CHA 1 characters?

Trolls *can* have CHA 1, and up to 4. Humans *can* have CHA 1, and up to 6. I imagine that both have a bell-curve distribution, with trolls centering on 2-3, and humans on 3-4. (I'm ignoring Exceptional quality, which might pull the average up a tiny bit.)

As for dignity... I don't think my own dignity has anything to do with how inclusively someone else designed a door. I'm tall enough that getting out of the back seat of a 2-door car can involve some contortions. If I do those contortions smoothly and confidently, and stand straight with eyes front and chin up when I get out, that's dignity enough for me. If there is any indignity, it's not the "oh, he's a safe target to pick on" kind of indignity. Was Treebeard an undignified character? okay, in the movie maybe, but in the books?

I am strongly biased towards SR4 (or D20 or GURPS) as a toolkit and starting point. There are no rules on bathrooms, and though I do *not* want fluff on body functions in a toilet stall, excusing oneself to a bathroom can be a convenient pretext for privately checking the Scan/Analyse log of one's comlink, halfway through the conversation with Mr. Johnson. You could say "Since there are no rules on bathrooms, they do not exist and SR4 characters never need them". *shrug* If you do, then have fun in Doc Funk's game, and you won't do well in mine.

Y ou haven't seen the Princess Bride!? Shit man I'd thought everyone over 20 had seen that movie. That's like saying you've never seen Labrynth. I'm starting to feel old. Fortune, help me man. how do you cope?

i just spent 90€ . . something like 150$ . . on 6 DVD's of the latest Godzilla Movies . . princess bride is so not my alley it ain't even funny anymore somehow x.x . .

i like them big . . allways did, i am an avid fan of mecha stuff and the like . . the bigger the better . . if shadowrun would not be located mostly in northern america but europe i'd stick to playing GIANTS period *g*

that's beautyfull ^^

it's the truth, but i'll say it more for comedy gold reasons:
"never even heard of that title until now" ^^

use an c instead of the k, paint em green, have em drive big nasty fast looking vehicles and have am talk funny . . i like to think of them as the WH40K Orcs being on holiday ^^

i'm not the one saying that trolls have low Cha. that was, in effect, what Simon May was saying; i was responding to it.

as has been pointed out before, the difficulty a big guy has in getting out of the back of a car doesn't begin to match the difficulties a troll would have getting through a human-sized door. moreover, while one troll might be able to partake in normal human activity without feeling like an oversized oaf, that's a far cry from all trolls being able to. there are lots of handicapped people who get around just fine on their own; that doesn't mean we don't need to build wheelchair access ramps or have reserved handicap parking.

you are strongly opposed, on a moral basis, to laughing a lot?

Yeah I was thinking that too, Ork is too Warhammer. I blame D&D and it's obsessive need to classify everything into separate species such as goblin, hobgoblin, kobold, orc, ogre, ogre mage, troll, fomoran, blah blah just to sell more splat books.

Just make them all Trolls. The really big ones use the Large Troll stats and size ranges.

When we discuss generic humans we refer to the average human, who has a 3 in everything, including Charisma. We are discussing trolls, and the average troll has a 1 in charisma.

I didn't mention charisma once. Dignity and charisma aren't a 1:1 ratio. I've know plenty of charismatic people who have no dignity (think tele-evangelist preacher begging for money). And I've met people with plenty of dignity and no charisma (see Elephant Man). They can be unrelated. And ducking to fit through a doorway doesn't subtract from your charisma as far as I can tell.

i'm not sure how to interpret that statement, other than to conclude you're talking about trolls having low Cha.

Civil liberties don't amount to squat in SR, and those gangs - composed of a small minority of a small minority - won't last too long against corp sec. Corps are only going to bother troll-sizing in places where they will hire trolls - like warehouses - while research labs and offices will probably remain conventionally-sized since the chances of a troll researcher or exec is almost nil (as a generalization, exceptions exist - as exceptions).

Doubling the height cuts down on your number of floors making less usable space. Thus, for many buildings troll-sizing is not an economical solution. Do the corps that make the buildings really need a better reason than money?

nah, i am all for laughing . . i just don't like watching funny movies . . or at least movies that intend to be funny . . movies that are said to be funny . . they just somehow are not funny to me x.x . . but then i am one of those guys who laughs at things like someone killing someone else with a flamethrower, then frowning, cursing and loudly complaining about wanting a big bloody steak from the smell . .

Dignity means not having to say please for things that should be standard . . like not having to say:"i am late for a meeting, i have my SIN here, please let me go officer" and such things . . like getting pulled over by the police just because you don't look right for the car . . or asked to accompany the officers to the police station because you look like you're expecting trouble(actually happened to me . . and no, i am not black . . i just wear all black including black leather coat <.<)

Absolutely not, which is why the troll market is as important as any. They eat more, are used to spending more to buy things that fit them, and are willing to do jobs for less if they're in comfort. That alone means it'll save corps money (in lawsuits) and make them more money by adapting to trolls.

I pretty much hate comedy movies as a general rule. I loved Princess Bride. The book was even better, if you'd prefer.

That is 6" and 27 pounds off.

I would just like to see his liver get cloned for SR4, the tales of his drinking exploits defy description.

WMS

Which is exactly why the only Corp that makes even the remotest strides in this extremely lucrative market is Evo, right?

I agree, although in a world where a significant portion of the population is the size of Andre the Giant, having people a foot or two taller would probably be much easier to deal with.

Looking up Andre the Giant led me to the page on Acromegaly, which has a list of various famous people who had it.

So here's a list of people of whom all but two are in excess of 2 meters. Trolls are listed in the book as being about half a meter taller than that. A really tall troll probably caps out at around 3 meters. (I don't really know what the variation is in trolls, but I'm willing to accept its a smaller variation than it is in humans.) I mean, there's really no rules for size. I could play a human based on Kareem Abdul Jabar, who was 7'2" and apparently well-rounded enough to be pretty good at basketball and appear in the movie Airplane. I could also play a slightly below average height troll who was 7'2". The main difference will be the troll will be much stockier-- although come to think of it, there's no reason I couldn't play a troll with a 5 Bod and 5 Str who wouldn't be that much stockier than Kareem.

But that was my point about writing trolls out because they're a foot too tall. Trolls, on average are about a foot taller than the tallest humans. It really doesn't seem like that big a deal. It doesn't break the magic for me.

For another good troll-like example, I think Mr. Hyde from League of Extraordinary Gentlemen is a pretty good specimen. I'm thinking the comic more than the movie here. That's how I'd picture a Bod/Str 10 troll, particularly the scene where he goes crazy on all the guys under the opium den. Well, I can't find that one but I can find this one: Mr. Hyde Bio

well, it's your life, but if you catch cancerAIDS and die, it's god punishing you for not watching The Princess Bride.

Simon May... i'm tired of chasing you. it seems like every time someone responds to you, you shift your argument a bit. my point is that trolls are not given enough of the spotlight, especially given their size-related handicaps, to justify their place in the setting. i'm not sure what your point is.

Not really. Trolls are generally regarded as a small minority in most SR settings (including Seattle). Exceptions exist, such as Kingdom of Hawaii (or however you spell it) and the Black Forest, but these are exceptions.

Research labs and boardrooms are not for eating or shopping, and don't really have any jobs offered that require massive size and strength anyway so it's cheaper to just draw candidates from the other 92% of the population (that tend to be smarter, more social, and even more dexterous for hands-on work).

Yeah. I'm pretty sure that the corps have a lot to fear here. Multinational corps with extraterritoriality can just drop their citizenship - no citizenship = no job. Affirmative action is dead in SR, and the troll tends to have the lowest mental stats - the ones typically will lead to successful employment. Face facts, they are not going to be the 'best candidate' for most non-physical labor or security work in any event.

BOOK? NOW WE'RE TALKING!
i can laugh at pretty much anything if i get to READ it ^^
seriously . . tried it once . . watched movie and read script . . script had me laughing . . movie . . meh . . but enough of this . . more big posts concerning big issues of/with bigger trolls than me ^^