 Do Trolls belong in SR?, Offshoot from the troll heavy weapons |
  |
 Nov 14 2007, 04:27 PM
Post
#151
|
|
|
Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421  |
The only real problem I have with trolls is that while they may or may not be accomodated to in normal life. I can almost guarantee you that a Japanese centered corp would not have troll doorways or hallways. Hell, they probably wouldn't even fit orks or large humans down them well. Which means you don't take the troll with you on the Renraku extraction.
Chris |
 |
 
|
|
Nov 14 2007, 05:10 PM
Post
#152
|
|||
|
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
sorry, but only option 1 is valid on dumpshock :silly: |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 14 2007, 05:16 PM
Post
#153
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
No one of us can choose to do something about it himself so that other can switch from pissing on the system to pissing on his work. :silly:
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 14 2007, 05:33 PM
Post
#154
|
|||||||||||
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
:please:
No. It would be more accurate to compare it to the phrase, "the Earth is no less spherical than other planets." That said, I'm just trying to be as pedantic as you are. Your supplied quote of "trolls are no less intelligent or mannered than other metatypes" specifically stated "no less." So if there's a Human, Dwarf, Ork, or Elf running around with Logic 6 or Charisma 6 naturally, there must be Trolls running around with the same natural scores... for "trolls are no less intelligent or mannered than other metatypes." There must also be Charisma 9 Trolls running around, too. And ones with Charisma scores in excess of 13-14 through augmentation. And all with exactly the same stat distributions and averages because, again, "trolls are no less intelligent or mannered than other metatypes." Which is completely absurd. That's the only way your argument can hold up, however, since that quote is the foundation for everything you're going on about.
Obviously. Your quote states otherwise though, despite the obviousness of how wrong it is, both as described by the setting and the game rules reflecting the characters.
See above. The quote isn't "trolls are often as well-mannered and intelligent as an average specimen of any other metatype." It's "trolls are no less intelligent or mannered than other metatypes." That's a hard, definitive statement.
Yes, because that's all exactly what everyone in this thread has been saying. You're spot on with that commentary. Bravo. How could anyone question such a clearly accurate and astute observation? I simply can't fathom it. You're quite clearly a god amongst mere mortals. |
||||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||||
|
Nov 14 2007, 05:45 PM
Post
#155
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
I'm going to admit right up front to not reading this entire 7 page thread so if this has been said already sorry.
In previous editions the trolls did make a lot of sense for the setting. You were more than likely playing a person whose genes suddenly one day said "You know what? You're actually a troll so lets just painfully and suddenly increase your size about twofold." You went from being a normal, respectable person to be awkward and clumsy, not to mention that in old editions you also got minuses to your mental stats as soon as you turned. You actually FORGOT things you used to know. People started treating you like a monster. And you became one, running to the shadows and ekeing out an existence as a crimial for hire. Very distopic eh? Now you are more than likely playing a troll that was born naturally. You were born to troll parents and raised with a little bit of troll specific culture. Trolls still don't have the distinct culture that orks do yet (no trollish Or'zet) but Trog society is coming into its own after 50 years. There's even a Mega that specifically goes around making things more Meta-friendly. You don't receive minuses to your mental stats anymore. You just can't raise them as high as most of the other variants. You don't BECOME stupid and clumsy when you are born a troll you just have a learning disability on the high end of the scale (sorry Troll, no easy PhD for you). But even that isn't as bad as it was anymore. This isn't as distopic huh? |
|
|
|
|
Nov 14 2007, 05:59 PM
Post
#156
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 7-October 07 Member No.: 13,604 |
Toronto isn't a bad choice for the reasons you talk about, but I don't think that you'd ever get enough city trolls in one place to viably become a serious force in the city (politically, not physically, which would only take 5 or 6). More likely, after the quake in New York, lots of trolls were brought in to help rebuild, and in doing so, they carved a niche for themselves.
Cal Free State would also be a solid choice. Sacramento is near to the wooded wilderness, where redwoods would actually make trolls feel at home. |
|
|
|
|
Nov 14 2007, 06:15 PM
Post
#157
|
|||
|
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Torontroll? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 14 2007, 06:22 PM
Post
#158
|
|
|
Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
I can see the new tourism ad campaign now.
"Toronto: We might be uglier, but Montreal is still ruder." "Toronto: Want to feel pretty and skinny?" "Toronto: Are you gonna eat that?" "Toronto: Whores who know they're ugly charge less!" "Toronto: Now with nine million percent more horns!" "Toronto: Come here or we'll eat you!" |
|
|
|
|
Nov 14 2007, 06:34 PM
Post
#159
|
|||
|
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Critias, have I told you this week that I love you? :rotfl: I think you cause more potential trouble in my workplace than anyone else. Those are great. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 14 2007, 07:17 PM
Post
#160
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 573 Joined: 17-September 07 Member No.: 13,319 |
*shrug* I suspect that at this point, the moderators are evaluating whether further posts on the average CHA of trolls in SR4 BBB would be useful to other Shadowrun GMs and players. I've made my points; anyone can take 'em, or leave 'em, or misinterpret them. You have evaded my point with 5 net hits, and scored a critical success! As with many USA residents, my knowlege drops off fairly abruptly at the border, so if someone who knows Toronto says that it could become a haven for trolls and other 6W non-mainstreamers, I'll buy that. Could there be a Trolltown neighborhood in which material culture was troll-optimized from the ground up? eg parking meters have a height that goes above waist level for trolls? NYC might have that, if there was an area that became "temporary worker barracks" for troll construction workers, and then trolls never left and no one kicked them out. (Which any major player could - individually, trolls are tough, but long-range missiles loaded with lethal gas are a darn persuasive argument for relocation, and so is magic that works against WIL rather than BOD.) As for visual descriptions... I can readily imagine some people describing a troll, in post-crisis police debriefing as "uh, she was a troll, and big, with horns... and an overcoat. What kind of horns? I dunno. Pointy?" Even if trolls vary as much (or more) as other metatypes, in skin shade, horn shape, and so forth, many people might well pay much less attention to those details. The phrase "they all look alike to me" is all too true in real life; it's not because they actually have identical features, it's because the observer is less experienced with that category. Meanwhile, a troll might habitually notice details such as "horns pointed forward, with outward arch, right one larger", because the troll has a lot more experience with noticing horns... but might parse dwarves as "short" and not notice clearly the distinction between 3'6" height vs. 3'8" height. The city of Providence, Rhode Island really did have a contest for a six-word slogan to promote the city (sponsored by Chamber of Commerce, or Ministry of Propaganda, or some such). Students at Brown came up with "Near Boston! Kinda near New York!" Then again, I live in a city with a major tourism economy, and our slogan has nothing to do with what makes our city distinguishable from, say, Torontroll. Perhaps it's better that way. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 14 2007, 08:00 PM
Post
#161
|
|||
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Why would you think that? Have you had any experience with Dumpshock's moderators arbitrarily cutting short an ongoing and on-topic conversation for no reason? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 14 2007, 08:22 PM
Post
#162
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
My litmus test for in game racism is to take any given sentence about a metatype, replace that metatype with a real world ethnicity, and revel in the disturbingly horrible racist screed. "All trolls look alike", "Dwarves are industrious, but greedy", and so on. If any sweeping generalization is offensive to real people (even the "complimentary" ones are degrading), I think a similar attitude would be held by the imaginary people.
Since metatype racism is a stand-in in the system for real-world racism, it makes sense to me that people in the game would have similar attitudes. |
|
|
|
|
Nov 14 2007, 08:41 PM
Post
#163
|
|||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
I thought SR was supposed to be dystopian fantasy-future with political correctness thrown out the window. It shouldn't be too hard to imagine a solid acceptance of justified racism (as in orks and trolls really are less mentally capable than others) in SR with all of the other assumptions we have to swallow (like the Shiawase Decision if you want a non-magical example). |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 14 2007, 08:50 PM
Post
#164
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
Hate to burst people's bubbles but speaking as a Vancouverite I'd have to say that Toronto is inhabited by nothing but Trolls in the 5th world.
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 14 2007, 08:58 PM
Post
#165
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 7-October 07 Member No.: 13,604 |
And they're ruining all our message boards!!! :wobble: |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 14 2007, 09:12 PM
Post
#166
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
Well, to racists, all racism is justified racism. That's neither here nor there except to say that its one thing to say that mechanically trolls have a lower maximum Logic stat, and another to say that trolls shouldn't be able to live where they want to live. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 14 2007, 10:06 PM
Post
#167
|
|||
|
Old Man of the North Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 10,563 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463 |
Ouch. As a matter of interest, does the United States have a city everybody there likes to hate, the way Toronto is reviled by all Canadians who don't live there? (...because they're jealous, even those Vancouverites with their mountains and sea and fresh air and laid-back, west-coast attitude and ...) Or how about other countries? Is there a Torontroll in the UK? Do Aussies hate Sydney, do Germans hate Hamburg? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 14 2007, 10:08 PM
Post
#168
|
|||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
Sure... But if I'm the corp building the apartment complex/residential community, I'm within my rights to put in 8-foot ceilings in all of the structures, trolls be damned. They can adapt to those living conditions or else find housing elsewhere. The same for workplaces and jobs. PolCor equality is gone in SR along with most other positive notions of cheerfulness and glee. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 14 2007, 10:09 PM
Post
#169
|
|||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
Detroit and San Francisco get a lot of flak for widely differing reasons. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 14 2007, 10:23 PM
Post
#170
|
|||
|
The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
dude . . i am from hamburg . . don't you dare . . People LOVE Hamburg . . actually, most germany hate either bavaria or the old eastern parts that were once soviet . . or Berlin because it's a huge disappointment in both being the capital and the biggest construction site in all of germany . . |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 14 2007, 10:25 PM
Post
#171
|
|||
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
People love hamburgers! You're just hearing what you want to hear. ;) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 14 2007, 10:28 PM
Post
#172
|
|
|
The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
ah . . no . . i actually know people basically all over the world . . most of which were at least once in germany and while here they visited hamburg . . all of them instantly fell in love with my City somehow . . i don't know how, i don't WANT to know how and i am NOT questioning it . . hey, Hamburg gets a whole lotta lovin in SR too *g* . . buut . . back to topic . . or at least a little bit more into that direction, even if not on target ^^
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 14 2007, 10:29 PM
Post
#173
|
|
|
Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
SF gets less flak than LA does, I think. Detroit gets a lot of fear not a lot of hate. Like, "Oh god, I'd hate to live there, I'd get killed! And it's so POOR!" Because Detroit's economy was in the toilet for many a year.
I think NYC and LA get the most hate, with a nominal nod to Dallas among a lot of people I know. |
|
|
|
|
Nov 14 2007, 10:33 PM
Post
#174
|
|||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
Odd that when I lived in Flint (until '95), my friends and I wanted to move to the big city to find something better. That big city was typically Detroit (Chicago for the more ambitious among us). My hometown sucked bad. In many ways, Detroit was/is a step up from Flint. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 14 2007, 10:38 PM
Post
#175
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,579 Joined: 30-May 06 From: SoCal Member No.: 8,626 |
I've never seen SF take much flak, it's a great city, I love visiting there. Sacramento on the other hand... or Barstow, Stockton, Ontario, Redding... all the cities in the middle of BF nowhere are the ones that get flak out here.
Californians... too busy hating themselves to hate anyone else. |
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 3rd June 2026 - 08:35 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.