 Do Trolls belong in SR?, Offshoot from the troll heavy weapons |
  |
 Nov 13 2007, 08:58 PM
Post
#26
|
|||||
|
Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669  |
So, not too much curiosity left there, eh? Following the Politician's Way of asking questions just so you can answer themyourself? ;) |
||||
 |
 
|
||||
|
Nov 13 2007, 09:07 PM
Post
#27
|
|||
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
It isn't the PC aspect for me. It is the setting. Think about the absolutely hideous expense that the owner of pretty much every single structure would have to incur to adapt all of those building to accommodate trolls even marginally. And that is just the buildings. Stuff like cars and all the little things (gadgetry or otherwise) that we take for granted nowadays would be a nightmare to adapt for regular troll usage. And don't get me started on the troll-adapted guns, whereby we get a pistol frame twice normal size that still acts as a Streetline Special. :please: |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 13 2007, 09:08 PM
Post
#28
|
|
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
More like stating my interpretation of the term, so that he can correct/agree when he answers my question.
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 13 2007, 09:31 PM
Post
#29
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 7-October 07 Member No.: 13,604 |
I have a good friend of mine who's 6'8 and massive. He doesn't fit into a lot of places. When an airline charged him for two seats because of his size, he took them to court. Not only did he get his money back, but the airline lost a lot of respect and business because of it. Fact is that while most places won't change to adapt to trolls until forced, public transport can accommodate trolls, large SUVs and vans can be adapted. Hell, my friend owns a mini cooper with the front seat removed and he can drive sitting in the back seat.
Point is that there are entire industries out there designed to make products for the very small and the very large. In the Sixth World, these are specialty markets in which the prices are higher and therefore there's more profit, so there would easily be competition and plenty of companies trying to get in. Imagine the number of jobs created for mechanics to adjust tech to the proper size. We already deal with the very large and very small. Why would trolls or dwarves be any different? |
|
|
|
|
Nov 13 2007, 09:33 PM
Post
#30
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 212 Joined: 30-November 04 Member No.: 6,858 |
Particularly 60 years after they appeared. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 13 2007, 09:34 PM
Post
#31
|
|
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Because trolls aren't just 6'8" and very large. 2.5 meters = 8'2". Thats as big a difference as your friend is to you, a troll would be to your friend.
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 13 2007, 09:35 PM
Post
#32
|
|
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I have seen a lot of big humans, and I mean big, but none that even compares to the average troll as described in Shadowrun.
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 13 2007, 09:38 PM
Post
#33
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Trolls aren't "very large." They're *monstrously* gigantic. Beyond the scope of a few small changes. The art does not depict them as large as they are described. They're not 6'8''. They're 8'-9' tall on average. They're not just a few pounds overweight, they weigh almost 700 pounds. And those are just typical specimens. Not the troll equivalence of your "6'8'' and massive" friend, let alone some of the metavariants.
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 13 2007, 09:40 PM
Post
#34
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
Mercer, the problem is, the fluff doesn't really show them 'not fitting in' much. they don't even get the dignity of sticking out like the sore thumb they are; for the most part, they're just kinda ignored. they're just tagalongs to orks, culturally as well as in the perceptions of most players and writers. if their lack of fitting in was disruptive, that'd be one thing. but they don't fit in, and that fact doesn't disrupt anything--and that's the problem with trolls.
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 13 2007, 09:41 PM
Post
#35
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 7-October 07 Member No.: 13,604 |
The average ceiling is 8' tall. In a municipal building in the US, it's supposed to be 10' tall. At 6'2", I occasionally find myself ducking. I don't see why a troll can't duck or slouch a little most of the time.
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 13 2007, 09:43 PM
Post
#36
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
dude, if trolls have to duck to avoid the ceiling, how in the world are they going to get through the doors without completely divesting themselves of their dignity?
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 13 2007, 09:44 PM
Post
#37
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 7-October 07 Member No.: 13,604 |
They're trolls. It's kind of rare to find one with dignity in the first place.
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 13 2007, 09:45 PM
Post
#38
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
since when does having Cha 1 mean you think it's cool and fun to get down on your knees every time you want to go inside? and then there's cars--it wouldn't just be embarrassing for most trolls to try and get in a car, it'd be physically impossible. can your 6'8" friend fit into a Power Wheels toy, or one of those baby-shaking rides outside K-Mart? because those are both fairly apt comparisons.
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 13 2007, 09:46 PM
Post
#39
|
|
|
Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...the thing is they're not just tall, but big and bulky all around. Slouching or ducking down doesn't mean they will still fit through a conventional doorway, be able to go down a standard hallway easily, or be able to squeeze into a lift with a dozen other people.
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 13 2007, 09:52 PM
Post
#40
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 7-October 07 Member No.: 13,604 |
Given the amount of infrastructure damage (i.e. - New York Quake) and the fact that in 70 years, most buildings will be rebuilt if not rennovated, I don't see why the standard hallway wouldn't be 10' tall and big enough for trolls by then. I'm sure there will be plenty of civil liberties cases and lots of protests by the troll community, but after that first troll gang knocks your building down because you were an ass and wouldn't build the troll equivalent of a wheelchair ramp, I'm sure plenty of business owners would be hopping on the bandwagon.
The issue to me is that what's conventional now won't be conventional then. Making a doorway bigger or ceiling higher won't screw with humans. In fact, there's no reason why you wouldn't want to accommodate a troll, besides prejudice. |
|
|
|
|
Nov 13 2007, 09:53 PM
Post
#41
|
|
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
And yet the setting fluff doesn't describe things as being that way. Most buildings outside of Downtown are not new, and are not described as having undergone the massive structural reinforcements necessary to accommodate regular troll usage.
Think of the size of Thing in the recent Fantastic Four movie (both bulk and height), then give him almost double the height (and a bit more bulk) ... that should be somewhat close to the average troll in size. |
|
|
|
|
Nov 13 2007, 09:59 PM
Post
#42
|
|||
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
sure, in areas 'lucky' enough to have suffered significant widescale damage. in most places, though, they'll be using a lot of the same buildings that existed twenty, fifty, even a hundred years ago. and a lot of the new construction being done is going to be by Japanese interests. given that up until a few years ago, most Japanese metahumans were shipped off to a remote island, how many Japanacorp-built structures do you think will be troll-friendly? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 13 2007, 10:02 PM
Post
#43
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
This is one of the things that keeps trolls marginalized in the game world. There are only a few buildings that can accommodate trolls, so that's where trolls (particularly the poor ones, who can't afford to buy and modify their own home) have to live. If a troll wants to rent a car, he has to rent the one troll-modified car they have and feel lucky they had that one. Its a way the (hu)Man(s) keeps the troll down. I would agree that a troll's size has always been incorporated in a sort of half-assed mechanical manner. I mean, if they're twice the height of a human and four times the mass they should probably have pretty sick bonuses for Recoil and Concealability of weapons, and they should probably be using HMG's like assault rifles, and Panther Cannons like sniper rifles (which, come to think of it, most of the trolls I've seen in game do). That's a pretty simple fix mechanically, but my fear is it would exacerbate the problems with trolls being one-trick tanks. (And there's no exacerbating in public.) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 13 2007, 10:03 PM
Post
#44
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 7-October 07 Member No.: 13,604 |
Not many, which is why Trolls don't often show up in those places. The barrens, night clubs, and restaurants will all be troll accommodating (business is business afterall), and I see no reason why a troll would want to go someplace which isn't going to be comfortable. If he does, then you've got a civil liberties case right there.
I'd also like to point out that you don't need widescale damage. If a business isn't big enough for trolls or is built specifically small, then trolls could easily target it for "unscheduled demolition." If they won't listen, make them understand without talking. |
|
|
|
|
Nov 13 2007, 10:06 PM
Post
#45
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
that would be fine, except that it doesn't happen in the setting. if the setting mentioned that troll-unfriendly establishments were frequently targetted by the Spikes and other trog gangs, that would be great. it would be giving trolls some culture, some voice, some spice. but it doesn't, so they don't. which is the whole problem.
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 13 2007, 10:12 PM
Post
#46
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 7-October 07 Member No.: 13,604 |
In my game, they do. And I don't even have a troll PC playing.
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 13 2007, 10:13 PM
Post
#47
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
that's great for your game. it doesn't help the setting in general, though.
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 13 2007, 10:13 PM
Post
#48
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 7-October 07 Member No.: 13,604 |
If I can do it, so can you.
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 13 2007, 10:16 PM
Post
#49
|
|
|
The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
Trolls are NECCESSARY for the Setting . .
Elves and Dwarves are pretty much accepted and barely different from Humans regarding society . . Orcs went off and build their own society below the one that shunned them and are at least on a good way to be treated the same . . they even got orc poserz(sadly, not the ones from WH40k) like the elves do! . . Trolls are different . . and they are proud about it . . they are too big to actually fit in . . and they are way too big to be ignored . . they are basically what society does not want to see . . and they are loud and obnoxious and straight into your face about it too . . especially in a setting like shadowrun such a thing is needed in my eyes . . in a purely fantasy setting where everything is more or less village style they'd probably be just as incorporated into the rest of society . . but in the glass and chrome world of the sprawls, in the shut off enclaves of the usual run of the mill wageslave they need to be seen from time to time, to remind people that there is a different world out there . . |
|
|
|
|
Nov 13 2007, 10:23 PM
Post
#50
|
|||
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
That's all fine and dandy and all that stuff, but we aren't talking about having to adapt our games to accommodate trolls. That should already have been reflected in the setting descriptions and fluff. We are talking about how these humongous humanoids, who make up more than 1% of the population (making that figure up 'cause I'm too lazy to look ;)), not all of whom are poor and stuck in the Barrens, cannot even fit through the doors of most places, let alone sit in even remotely similar chairs, or easily use the same small and intricate electronics, or ... And how this is in no way illustrated in the general fluff and fiction (and even most of the rules). |
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 3rd June 2026 - 02:26 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.