 Do Trolls belong in SR?, Offshoot from the troll heavy weapons |
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 Nov 26 2007, 10:57 PM
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#376
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Immoral Elf  Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486  |
Found the book ...
This is followed by a comment in the shadowtalk ...
Make of all that what you will, but the first answer that strikes me as being adequate is to assume that the word 'hundred' was a misprint and go with the more probable number, just as Riyalpolitik seems to do. |
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Nov 26 2007, 11:18 PM
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#377
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I think blame still falls on someone, but "someone" just changed to the editor. Thanks for the quotes.
~J |
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Nov 26 2007, 11:39 PM
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#378
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 212 Joined: 30-November 04 Member No.: 6,858 |
And, of course, no discontinuity in fluff would ever be deliberate would it? Go back to the SR3 boards Kage.
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Nov 27 2007, 01:52 AM
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#379
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Neophyte Runner Group: Validating Posts: 2,283 Joined: 12-October 07 Member No.: 13,662 |
Firstly... re: female troll, male victim... I have flashbacks of Futurama and the 'schnoo schnoo amazons episode coming to mind. But anyhow, I disagree with this. If you look at the people having that many children it's because they see the children as a net economic asset or religious reasons. It's only once you start getting into high cost of living and such that children start to be seen as luxury items or status symbols. The largest families are typically farm families where each child is a free farmhand. Plus in those environs social security isn't a given so having children to help provide when you're older is a big help. Same goes for disease and such, only having 2 can be risky because disease could wipe out your retirement quite easily and they might not be able to help support you. But very quickly, you can see that whole economic side of things coming back into play. Otherwise the other big determinant of large families is religion. And even then a lot of those who have many are 'poor' because they choose to have a lot of kids. Not because they're poor per se. Now in shadowrun, poor farmers have been utterly wiped out is my understanding. The large mechanized farming conglomerates are just that big and that efficient. So it quickly comes back to... can you feed all those mouths. Economics starts looming large as are children still net assets or decreasing returns. Now once again, we hit another limitation, unlike todays society, we don't buy votes by handing out cash to poor mothers to have kids out of wedlock. There's a much more darwinian aspect to it... if you can't provide you/they starve and no one looks the other way. |
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Nov 27 2007, 02:03 AM
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#380
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
true, but more kids means you've got more people who can bash that other family over the head with a tire iron and steal their food, more people who can take turns watching the entrance(s) to the building you're squatting in to make sure ghouls don't kill you, more people to rummage through garbage to find food, and (this is a dystopia) more children you can basically sell into slavery (either working in a corp factory or in a bunraku parlor etc).
keep in mind, the lack of social security also comes hand-in-hand with a lack of controls on child labor laws and such things. |
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Nov 27 2007, 05:06 AM
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#381
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
Thanks for the quotes :) Agreed, seems like the little word hundred is a misprint. |
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Nov 27 2007, 05:57 AM
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#382
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
You can repeat it as many times as you want, it doesn't change the fact that on average they are stupider than other metaraces, and have been for all four editions now. Intelligence is a quantifiable asset in Shadowrun, and Trolls just plain have a lower number there than everyone else. Period. Sorry. |
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Nov 27 2007, 07:48 AM
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#383
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Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 16-June 07 Member No.: 11,924 |
Just going to toss this out here. Five hundred million Muslims mobilizing for war doesn't necessarily mean Five hundred million AK toting fanatics swarming across Europe. It could very well mean the mentioned five million invading Europe while the rest wrestle with the colossal task of supporting five million fighting men hundreds of miles away.
Just like saying all of America mobilized for war after Pearl Harbor doesn't mean every American was grabbing a rifle and marching off to fight the Japanese. |
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Nov 27 2007, 09:18 AM
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#384
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
Or, they aren't thinking about it at all. Birth control is inconvenient or frowned upon, sex feels good, and there is a biological imperative at work. Almost half the pregnancies in the US are unplanned. (Which is of itself something of a modern idea, planning for pregnancy, as opposed to just assuming that people will marry and produce children as soon as possible.) |
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Nov 28 2007, 02:42 AM
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#385
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 573 Joined: 17-September 07 Member No.: 13,319 |
Then clearly you're proving my point, because Francis Eamon deValera Hardy is smart enough to look things up, unlike most puny-brained humans. For those of us with high mental stats and computer access, "I don't know" is usually the beginning of "I don't know yet... hold on... okay, now I do." |
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Nov 28 2007, 06:37 AM
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#386
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
Well maybe I'm just blinded by awe of your incredibly high mental stats, but my puny human brain has looked this up twice now, and still fails to see what point you were trying to make by saying someone named Frank Hardy hates me. |
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Nov 28 2007, 07:22 AM
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#387
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Just do what I do when someone says they hate me, and not care. |
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Nov 28 2007, 08:56 PM
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#388
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 |
A bit late, but to show the size difference: Here's a link to a picture of a 2.7 meter tall troll and a 1.8 meter tall ork.
(The Tusks should be bigger, and the skin rougher - it shows the size nicely though.) |
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Nov 28 2007, 09:13 PM
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#389
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,180 Joined: 22-January 07 From: Rochester, NY Member No.: 10,737 |
*blinks* :eek: Okay... that helps alot for visualization (Speaking as someone that's 1.8 meters tall) |
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Nov 28 2007, 09:51 PM
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#390
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
that orc does not look 1.8m tall . .
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Nov 28 2007, 10:06 PM
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#391
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 |
The base model for both is the same, M3. I took that to be 150 cm (arbitrally), and enlarged the ork to 120%, the troll to 180%. So, they are the right size in relation to each other - and to the enviroment.
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Nov 28 2007, 11:37 PM
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#392
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 573 Joined: 17-September 07 Member No.: 13,319 |
Works for me, in most situations. |
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Nov 29 2007, 01:55 AM
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#393
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 |
(Here's a Link to average-sized Troll, Ork, Human and Elf (250, 190, 175 und 190 cm).
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Nov 29 2007, 04:11 AM
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#394
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
Is there a way to adjust the builds without altering the height? The elf needs to have a lighter build while the ork and the troll both need heavier builds.
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Nov 29 2007, 04:12 AM
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#395
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
The size difference looks a great deal more dramatic in the first picture (1.8m vs 2.7m), I think because its greater than in the second (1.9 vs 2.5) and also because the ork in the first one is crouching a little. But its still a difference of roughly half again as big in the first one, and about a quarter again as big in the second. A few things:
1) Yeah, those might be the prettiest troll and ork combo out there, but that's okay. A guy moves to LA, he might get some skin treatments and have the tusks filed down a bit. Or maybe they're just naturally pretty. (If I and Adriana Lima are members of the same species-- and I'm assuming we are, although I still think she might be a space alien-- then those two might represent the high end of pretty for orks and trolls. The elf and the human are pretty hot themselves, but what, no dwarf? What are you, a racist?) 2) The first picture would make a great trid movie poster. Trog Justice or By Any Means Necessary. I leave that to the marketing department. (That looks a lot like a CP2020 pulse rifle that troll is holding, by-the-by.) One's a cop on the edge who plays by his own rules. The other is a 2.7 meter tall horned vigilante who collects antiques. They fight crime. |
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Nov 29 2007, 04:36 AM
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#396
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
You forgot "Trognet" Hahaha! I say that because I'm racist against magical species that don't exist and will never have hurt feelings! |
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Nov 29 2007, 05:47 AM
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#397
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Really? Maybe it's because he's standing right next to a Troll and they're fucking giant compared to every other metarace, which is what we've all been saying all along. |
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Nov 29 2007, 07:20 AM
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#398
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
Well, like I said he is crouching a bit, making the troll look twice as tall rather than half again as tall. Of course, its not like trolls being fucking giants was ever really in contention. Its not like we've been playing for years with 5' tall trolls and someone looked it up in the book the other day and said, "Holy shit, these guys are like 8-10' tall. How is that possible?"
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Nov 29 2007, 07:37 AM
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#399
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 |
Dwarf is next on the list. But that takes some time as well. Good idea about the movie poster, I'll add some lines! One can adjust the weight and builds without adjusting the height, so one can make the elf skinnier. I'll play around with it tonight. |
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Nov 29 2007, 07:54 AM
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#400
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
No, you're right, everyone has always given lip service to the height, weight, and sheer general just badassed size of Trolls. Sometimes something like the above links -- a visual reminder, a slap in the face that you cannot ignore -- is required to make some people really think about what they're saying when the words "these guys are 8-10 feet tall" come out of their fool mouths, though. It's one of the ongoing themes of the thread, you could almost say. The size of Trolls is a big fucking deal, and not just a few free attribute points (the same as you can get from any old piece of cyber or bioware) the way some people like to think. |
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