Do Trolls belong in SR? - Dumpshock Forums

Do Trolls belong in SR?, Offshoot from the troll heavy weapons

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Kyoto Kid

Nov 13 2007, 10:24 PM

Post #51

Bushido Cowgirl

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QUOTE (Simon May)

...but after that first troll gang knocks your building down because you were an ass and wouldn't build the troll equivalent of a wheelchair ramp, I'm sure plenty of business owners would be hopping on the bandwagon.

...more likely, you move to a different neighbourhood.

Fortune

Nov 13 2007, 10:26 PM

Post #52

Immoral Elf

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QUOTE (Stahlseele)

Trolls are different . . and they are proud about it . . they are too big to actually fit in . . and they are way too big to be ignored . . they are basically what society does not want to see . . and they are loud and obnoxious and straight into your face about it too . .

That would be fine if there were 1 in like 5 or 10 thousand. But when there is (again roughly) 1 in every hundred, then it needs to be addressed.

Simon May View Member Profile	Nov 13 2007, 10:26 PM Post #53
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 7-October 07 Member No.: 13,604	I agree it's a shame, but the game is designed to be extrapolative. That's why house rules and unofficial fluff appear and everyone seems to be perfectly happy about it. Plus, I can't think of anyone who restricts themselves solely to what's in the book. At the very least, your character is your own creation, the dialog is all the GM. Shadowrun, as with all games, is intended to provide a beginning. If they forget or don't cover something, we fix that.

Apathy View Member Profile	Nov 13 2007, 10:32 PM Post #54
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046	Another thing worth mentioning is how the SR rules seem to break down a little bit as we approach the extreme limits - and trolls are all about living on the extreme limits. Case in point is all the threads complaining about the un-realism of troll archers taking out tanks and buildings.

mfb View Member Profile	Nov 13 2007, 10:32 PM Post #55
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	yes, everyone is aware of how easy it is to make houserules. houserules, however, aren't what's being discussed. what's being discussed is the viability of trolls in the existing setting. and in the existing setting, trolls don't add much.

Mercer

Nov 13 2007, 10:36 PM

Post #56

Running Target

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QUOTE (mfb)

Mercer, the problem is, the fluff doesn't really show them 'not fitting in' much. they don't even get the dignity of sticking out like the sore thumb they are; for the most part, they're just kinda ignored. they're just tagalongs to orks, culturally as well as in the perceptions of most players and writers. if their lack of fitting in was disruptive, that'd be one thing. but they don't fit in, and that fact doesn't disrupt anything--and that's the problem with trolls.

I apologize for missing this post the first time around, mfb. I just missed it.

I would agree that trolls are by-and-large (no pun intended) ignored in the fluff-- or that their difficulties are. I could make the case that the difficulties the average troll faces are simply not highlighted by the in-game media, and most sourcebooks are written from that perspective. But honestly, I think its just a case of oversight. Trolls are a certain size, this would create certain problems for them and the world, and no one has really gone through and tried to figure out how far reaching those problems would be or what they'd cost to solve.

Which is understandable. At one point in a homebrew game I was working on, I came to the realization it wasn't necessary for me to come up with an economically and scientifically viable plan for colonizing Mars. That wasn't what the game was about, it was a post-apocalyptic cowpunk science-fantasy that happened to be set on Mars. Shadowrun really isn't about the trials and tribulations of trolls as they try to make it in mainstream society. Its there in the background, and its fun to speculate on (as we're doing now), but its not really what we're interested in when we sit down to play.

I think its a pretty easy fix either way, if you think it needs to be fixed. Either incorporate the trolls not fitting in more, or make them a little smaller. Actually, they already shrank trolls a little in SR4-- they're listed as standing 2.5 meters tall in the SR4 book, down from an average height of 2.8 meters in SR3. They're big, but they're not exactly Godzilla lumbering through downtown Tokyo. And they have an average weight of 300 kilos in SR4. The way obesity is going in the US, that's probably not that far above a lot of humans.

Also, I said trolls were twice the height and four times the weight of humans, but the book lists them as about half again as tall, and two to three times as heavy, so they're smaller than I thought. I mean, we're talking about them being about a foot or so taller than the tallest humans; that's big but its not elephant big. (Although a troll riding an elephant would be a cool sight. Elephant jousting. Take that Medieval Times!)

Edit: I wanted to add, it seems odd to write trolls out of the setting because they're 1' too tall.

Stahlseele

Nov 13 2007, 10:37 PM

Post #57

The ShadowComedian

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QUOTE

let alone sit in even remotely similar chairs

basically the same with dwarves . . ever seen a child try and use a big chair? think about it that way . . with trolls it's about like a big man using a little chair . . both will have problems, the one getting into the chair, the other getting out of the chair . . honestly, think about it for a second . . if we say that a dwarf is between 1 and 1,5m tall . . they can walk below most tables i know . . they will never be able to use an elevator just like trolls can't because they won't be able to reach most of the buttons . . dwarves don't add much either and they are still there . . humans and elves mostly don't want to do the job of the combat monster or the street tough who can go around without some big people saying things like:"'ey blondie . . you got's a purdy mouth . ."

Mercer

Nov 13 2007, 10:41 PM

Post #58

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In trying to get an idea of how big trolls are I've been on Wikipedia reading up on Andre the Giant, and I came across this passage. Its not really vital to this discussion, but I found it interesting. (I make no claims to its veracity.)

QUOTE

In the A&E documentary, Arnold Skaaland mentions how André wished he could see a Broadway play. Arnold offered to buy tickets, but André then passed up the opportunity, citing how he was too big for the seats and that people behind him would not be able to see. This was cited as a principal reason for why André frequented taverns more than anywhere else.

In the A&E Biography episode, Arnold Skaaland tells the story of when André was in a bar one night, four men came up to him and began harassing him about his size. At first, André attempted to avoid confrontation, but eventually he proceeded to chase the hecklers until they locked themselves in their car. André then grabbed the car and tilted it over to its side with the four people trapped inside. André was never arrested for the incident, presumably since local police officers had a hard time believing four inebriated men's story about an angry giant having overturned their car.

Fortune

Nov 13 2007, 10:42 PM

Post #59

Immoral Elf

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QUOTE (Mercer)

[Also, I said trolls were twice the height and four times the weight of humans, but the book lists them as about half again as tall, and two to three times as heavy, so they're smaller than I thought. I mean, we're talking about them being about a foot or so taller than the tallest humans; that's big but its not elephant big.

It's not just the height. It's the bulk. It's the over-sized hands. It's the leg room required in cars and under tables. It's a tremendous number of little things.

Fortune

Nov 13 2007, 10:44 PM

Post #60

Immoral Elf

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QUOTE (Stahlseele)

basically the same with dwarves . . ever seen a child try and use a big chair? think about it that way . .

Right, but they don't demolish every piece of furniture they sit on. Accommodating dwarves into the setting is quite a bit easier than it is for trolls.

Simon May

Nov 13 2007, 10:44 PM

Post #61

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Fortune)

It's a tremendous number of little things.

Hey, don't trivialize the size of their things!

Stahlseele

Nov 13 2007, 10:47 PM

Post #62

The ShadowComedian

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QUOTE (Simon May)

QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 13 2007, 05:42 PM)

It's a tremendous number of little things.

Hey, don't trivialize the size of their things!

*shuders* eeewww . . no matter how much i love trolls(no, not in that way . . okay, i made a pretty cute design once. .) i did so not need that mental image x.x . .

Simon May View Member Profile	Nov 13 2007, 10:51 PM Post #63
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 7-October 07 Member No.: 13,604	I can see it now: "Man, I remember when Trolls first appeared. Suddenly, those joke condoms were being bought for real! I never thought I'd see someone buy a 6-pack of Moby Dicks."

Stahlseele View Member Profile	Nov 13 2007, 10:54 PM Post #64
The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525	you guys are horrible . . i love you all like i would love my own family . . but you're all fucking crazy g also that story about the angry giant? GENIUS! i just wonder how he did manage to turn over that car . . even at his size he can't be all that much stronger as there is a limit to the strain joints, bones and muscle fibres can take O.o

Simon May View Member Profile	Nov 13 2007, 10:55 PM Post #65
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 7-October 07 Member No.: 13,604	Did you ever see Andre the Giant wrestle? The guy was a beast. Flipping a car (thanks to the fact that the weight still rests on one side) would be easy if he were mad.

Stahlseele View Member Profile	Nov 13 2007, 11:02 PM Post #66
The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525	i don't know any andre the giant . . only giant i know was back in WWF or something like that . . but back to topic g as for the hot troll chick . . i basically did this: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2005/189395...030ffa1f3_o.jpg i gave her exceptional charisma and a nice pair of obvious and VERY well formed cyber-legs with short mini skirt or long dress like in the picture and send her inline blading on her built in cyber skates . .

Fortune

Nov 13 2007, 11:06 PM

Post #67

Immoral Elf

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QUOTE (Stahlseele)

i don't know any andre the giant . . only giant i know was back in WWF or something like that . .

That's the dude. He was in the movie Princess Bride (a must see see if you haven't already!)

Stahlseele View Member Profile	Nov 13 2007, 11:10 PM Post #68
The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525	nope, haven't seen that . . not quite my alley . . i even managed to avoid my girl dragging me into it x.x . .

mfb

Nov 13 2007, 11:12 PM

Post #69

Immortal Elf

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QUOTE (Mercer)

I wanted to add, it seems odd to write trolls out of the setting because they're 1' too tall.

i'm not actually for writing trolls out of the setting. completely the opposite, really--i want them to get their moment in the spotlight, the way orks did (with maybe a tetch less of the "orks are people--black people" focus). i don't think trolls should be written out of the setting, but i think they could be without any real effect. trolls, right now, are part of SR because they're part of SR. whereas elves are part of SR because they're part of SR and their racial identity has sparked a number of plot points and they fit the 'thin and pretty' racial slot. dwarves are part of SR because they're part of SR and they fit the 'short guy' racial slot. orks are part of SR because they're part of SR and they've got a strong racial identity (now) and because they fit the 'big guy' racial slot. trolls don't have that and, or if they do, their ands are filled by orks.

Ol' Scratch View Member Profile	Nov 13 2007, 11:14 PM Post #70
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890	The title of that movie is its own worst enemy.

mfb View Member Profile	Nov 13 2007, 11:16 PM Post #71
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	you haven't... seen... jesus, call the X-Files, we've got an honest-to-god martian!

Ol' Scratch View Member Profile	Nov 13 2007, 11:17 PM Post #72
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890	I wouldn't disbelieve him. I know of at least three people now who haven't seen it, and have adamantly refused to see it simply because of its title. That includes an ex-girlfriend of mine.

Simon May View Member Profile	Nov 13 2007, 11:19 PM Post #73
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 7-October 07 Member No.: 13,604	Silly people. It's probably Billy Crystal's funniest film.

hobgoblin View Member Profile	Nov 13 2007, 11:21 PM Post #74
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242	i suspect the reason trolls (and to some degree dwarfs) haven't gotten the fucus that elfs, and now orcs, have gotten is basically that this kinda stuff takes time and effort. one have only so much room in the books, and one also need someone willing to sit down and write about trolls.

Mercer

Nov 13 2007, 11:21 PM

Post #75

Running Target

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QUOTE (Fortune)

It's not just the height. It's the bulk. It's the over-sized hands. It's the leg room required in cars and under tables. It's a tremendous number of little things.

I think you see this as a crisis and I as an opportunity. (Well, those terms drastically overstate the importance of the discussion, so let's substitute "problem" for "crisis" and, well... "opportunity" is fine for my end.)

Trolls, literally, do not fit into polite society, and polite society is pretty happy about this. Racism is a part of the Shadowrun world, and the issue of a troll's size is the concept of racial segregation made into a practical problem. To quote from my SR3 book (since that's the one within arm's reach):

QUOTE (SR3 @ pg 50-51)

Our size poses other problems as well. Trolls often find everyday life uncomfortable, physically and socially. Everything is built for much smaller people; we don't fit in spaces like small automobiles or compartments in coffin hotels. We can't squeeze into most standard chairs and desks, which is why so few of us take office jobs. In many areas, troll children can't even go to the local school.

Not that trolls don't face bigotry. More of us live in the wilderness than the cities, partly because wide-open spaces give us breathing room, but also because of the prejudice and suspicion. Finding a landlord who'll rent to us is quite an accomplishment, let alone one who won't insist on twice the usual deposit because he's sure our weight will damage the floors. And even if we do find such a person, most residences are just too small to accommodate a troll family.

I can see the point that the isolation and marginalization of trolls isn't brought up that much in the game, but most of the time its a game about criminals doin' crime, not fighting for racial equality. It's there, but its not the sole or even the main focus of the game.

I'll admit that Buffy the Vampire Slayer declined in later seasons (non-sequitor much?), but even at its low points it had flashes of brilliance, things that worked even if the larger arcs didn't. One of those moments for me came in late 5th season, when Buffy asks Spike to protect Dawn. He says he'll do it because, "I may be a monster, but you've always treated me like a man."

I've always had a lot of sympathy for monsters. The Creature from Frankenstein, Quasimodo, even Cyrano de Bergerac. Trolls are monsters, but they are also men. I think the game would be poorer without them.

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