 Do Trolls belong in SR?, Offshoot from the troll heavy weapons |
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 Nov 13 2007, 11:34 PM
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#76
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Immoral Elf  Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486  |
Then you have absolutely no idea what you are missing. Princess Bride is in no way a 'chick flick'. |
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Nov 13 2007, 11:35 PM
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#77
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 573 Joined: 17-September 07 Member No.: 13,319 |
I thought we were discussing trolls; do you want a new thread for CHA 1 characters? Trolls *can* have CHA 1, and up to 4. Humans *can* have CHA 1, and up to 6. I imagine that both have a bell-curve distribution, with trolls centering on 2-3, and humans on 3-4. (I'm ignoring Exceptional quality, which might pull the average up a tiny bit.) As for dignity... I don't think my own dignity has anything to do with how inclusively someone else designed a door. I'm tall enough that getting out of the back seat of a 2-door car can involve some contortions. If I do those contortions smoothly and confidently, and stand straight with eyes front and chin up when I get out, that's dignity enough for me. If there is any indignity, it's not the "oh, he's a safe target to pick on" kind of indignity. Was Treebeard an undignified character? okay, in the movie maybe, but in the books? I am strongly biased towards SR4 (or D20 or GURPS) as a toolkit and starting point. There are no rules on bathrooms, and though I do *not* want fluff on body functions in a toilet stall, excusing oneself to a bathroom can be a convenient pretext for privately checking the Scan/Analyse log of one's comlink, halfway through the conversation with Mr. Johnson. You could say "Since there are no rules on bathrooms, they do not exist and SR4 characters never need them". *shrug* If you do, then have fun in Doc Funk's game, and you won't do well in mine. |
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Nov 13 2007, 11:35 PM
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#78
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 941 Joined: 25-January 07 Member No.: 10,765 |
On the topic of the Princess Bride, the news this morning included a '20th Anniversary' story for the film, including an interview with Cary Elwes and Robin Wright-Penn... the stars. I missed most of it, but for the anecdote (entirely apropos) that Andre couldn't use a regular trailer as most movie actors use during filming, but had to live in the back of a truck... by which I must assume they meant an 18 wheeler boxcar, not the bed of a pickup.
Andre was (rest his soul, and may he dream of large women...) a decent approximation of a Troll for RL (spike baby!!!), thus is entirely relevant to study for what Trolls would probably have to go through to 'get by' in a small mans world... |
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Nov 13 2007, 11:37 PM
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#79
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Y ou haven't seen the Princess Bride!? Shit man I'd thought everyone over 20 had seen that movie. That's like saying you've never seen Labrynth. I'm starting to feel old. Fortune, help me man. how do you cope? |
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Nov 13 2007, 11:37 PM
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#80
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
The sad truth is that Andre the Giant was closer in size to a large ork than he was a troll. He was only 6'10'' and about 200kg.
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 Nov 13 2007, 11:39 PM
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#81
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
i just spent 90€ . . something like 150$ . . on 6 DVD's of the latest Godzilla Movies . . princess bride is so not my alley it ain't even funny anymore somehow x.x . . i like them big . . allways did, i am an avid fan of mecha stuff and the like . . the bigger the better . . if shadowrun would not be located mostly in northern america but europe i'd stick to playing GIANTS period *g*
that's beautyfull ^^
it's the truth, but i'll say it more for comedy gold reasons: "never even heard of that title until now" ^^ |
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Nov 13 2007, 11:39 PM
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#82
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
I never liked the term "ork", it's strictly a Tolkien word (yes I know it comes from some old word for demon, but only Tolkien used it to describe a large goblin or small troll).
I wonder if the game would be better with just "Trolls" that range in size from dwarf size to current troll size. Slang terms like goblin, ork, trog, korobokuru, and so on would abound, but technically they'd all just be trolls just as jockeys, sumo wrestlers, and basketball players are still humans. By changing the words "Ork" to "Troll" and "Troll" to "Large Troll" in the rule books, you're left with one unified Ork culture (now called Troll culture) without having to change anything. I don't know if it helps the game, it's just semantics, but at least it unifies the orks and trolls into one culture and keeps you from having to re-stat everything. |
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Nov 13 2007, 11:43 PM
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#83
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
use an c instead of the k, paint em green, have em drive big nasty fast looking vehicles and have am talk funny . . i like to think of them as the WH40K Orcs being on holiday ^^ |
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Nov 13 2007, 11:46 PM
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#84
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i'm not the one saying that trolls have low Cha. that was, in effect, what Simon May was saying; i was responding to it.
as has been pointed out before, the difficulty a big guy has in getting out of the back of a car doesn't begin to match the difficulties a troll would have getting through a human-sized door. moreover, while one troll might be able to partake in normal human activity without feeling like an oversized oaf, that's a far cry from all trolls being able to. there are lots of handicapped people who get around just fine on their own; that doesn't mean we don't need to build wheelchair access ramps or have reserved handicap parking.
you are strongly opposed, on a moral basis, to laughing a lot? |
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Nov 13 2007, 11:46 PM
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#85
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Yeah I was thinking that too, Ork is too Warhammer. I blame D&D and it's obsessive need to classify everything into separate species such as goblin, hobgoblin, kobold, orc, ogre, ogre mage, troll, fomoran, blah blah just to sell more splat books. Just make them all Trolls. The really big ones use the Large Troll stats and size ranges. |
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Nov 13 2007, 11:49 PM
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#86
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
When we discuss generic humans we refer to the average human, who has a 3 in everything, including Charisma. We are discussing trolls, and the average troll has a 1 in charisma. |
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Nov 13 2007, 11:50 PM
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#87
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 7-October 07 Member No.: 13,604 |
I didn't mention charisma once. Dignity and charisma aren't a 1:1 ratio. I've know plenty of charismatic people who have no dignity (think tele-evangelist preacher begging for money). And I've met people with plenty of dignity and no charisma (see Elephant Man). They can be unrelated. And ducking to fit through a doorway doesn't subtract from your charisma as far as I can tell. |
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Nov 13 2007, 11:51 PM
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#88
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i'm not sure how to interpret that statement, other than to conclude you're talking about trolls having low Cha. |
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Nov 13 2007, 11:55 PM
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#89
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
Civil liberties don't amount to squat in SR, and those gangs - composed of a small minority of a small minority - won't last too long against corp sec. Corps are only going to bother troll-sizing in places where they will hire trolls - like warehouses - while research labs and offices will probably remain conventionally-sized since the chances of a troll researcher or exec is almost nil (as a generalization, exceptions exist - as exceptions).
Doubling the height cuts down on your number of floors making less usable space. Thus, for many buildings troll-sizing is not an economical solution. Do the corps that make the buildings really need a better reason than money? |
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Nov 13 2007, 11:56 PM
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#90
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 7-October 07 Member No.: 13,604 |
Trolls generally don't have dignity. The world isn't built to their specs, so making extra effort trying to do things with style and hiding their size isn't going to be common. People treat them poorly and expect them to be uncouth, therefore plenty of them purposefully act uncouth in order to drive away assholes. If you're a troll, you internalize the stereotypes and use them to your advantage. Much like a dwarf taking dwarf roles in hollywood, it's not a very dignified job, but they do it because it's what they can get paid for. Trolls don't care about dignity if it's to their advantage not to. And if ducking to fit through doorways means they can get food from stores and jobs that pay well, they'll damn well do it, dignity be damned.
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Nov 13 2007, 11:57 PM
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#91
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
nah, i am all for laughing . . i just don't like watching funny movies . . or at least movies that intend to be funny . . movies that are said to be funny . . they just somehow are not funny to me x.x . . but then i am one of those guys who laughs at things like someone killing someone else with a flamethrower, then frowning, cursing and loudly complaining about wanting a big bloody steak from the smell . . Dignity means not having to say please for things that should be standard . . like not having to say:"i am late for a meeting, i have my SIN here, please let me go officer" and such things . . like getting pulled over by the police just because you don't look right for the car . . or asked to accompany the officers to the police station because you look like you're expecting trouble(actually happened to me . . and no, i am not black . . i just wear all black including black leather coat <.<) |
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Nov 13 2007, 11:58 PM
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#92
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 7-October 07 Member No.: 13,604 |
Absolutely not, which is why the troll market is as important as any. They eat more, are used to spending more to buy things that fit them, and are willing to do jobs for less if they're in comfort. That alone means it'll save corps money (in lawsuits) and make them more money by adapting to trolls. |
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Nov 14 2007, 12:01 AM
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#93
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I pretty much hate comedy movies as a general rule. I loved Princess Bride. The book was even better, if you'd prefer. |
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Nov 14 2007, 12:01 AM
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#94
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,159 Joined: 12-April 07 From: Ork Underground Member No.: 11,440 |
@DF From the Andre the Giant Official Web page
That is 6" and 27 pounds off. I would just like to see his liver get cloned for SR4, the tales of his drinking exploits defy description. WMS |
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Nov 14 2007, 12:03 AM
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#95
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Which is exactly why the only Corp that makes even the remotest strides in this extremely lucrative market is Evo, right? |
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Nov 14 2007, 12:04 AM
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#96
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 7-October 07 Member No.: 13,604 |
Exactly! Glad we're on the same page, Fortune.
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Nov 14 2007, 12:09 AM
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#97
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
I agree, although in a world where a significant portion of the population is the size of Andre the Giant, having people a foot or two taller would probably be much easier to deal with. Looking up Andre the Giant led me to the page on Acromegaly, which has a list of various famous people who had it.
So here's a list of people of whom all but two are in excess of 2 meters. Trolls are listed in the book as being about half a meter taller than that. A really tall troll probably caps out at around 3 meters. (I don't really know what the variation is in trolls, but I'm willing to accept its a smaller variation than it is in humans.) I mean, there's really no rules for size. I could play a human based on Kareem Abdul Jabar, who was 7'2" and apparently well-rounded enough to be pretty good at basketball and appear in the movie Airplane. I could also play a slightly below average height troll who was 7'2". The main difference will be the troll will be much stockier-- although come to think of it, there's no reason I couldn't play a troll with a 5 Bod and 5 Str who wouldn't be that much stockier than Kareem. But that was my point about writing trolls out because they're a foot too tall. Trolls, on average are about a foot taller than the tallest humans. It really doesn't seem like that big a deal. It doesn't break the magic for me. For another good troll-like example, I think Mr. Hyde from League of Extraordinary Gentlemen is a pretty good specimen. I'm thinking the comic more than the movie here. That's how I'd picture a Bod/Str 10 troll, particularly the scene where he goes crazy on all the guys under the opium den. Well, I can't find that one but I can find this one: Mr. Hyde Bio |
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Nov 14 2007, 12:12 AM
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#98
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
well, it's your life, but if you catch cancerAIDS and die, it's god punishing you for not watching The Princess Bride. Simon May... i'm tired of chasing you. it seems like every time someone responds to you, you shift your argument a bit. my point is that trolls are not given enough of the spotlight, especially given their size-related handicaps, to justify their place in the setting. i'm not sure what your point is. |
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Nov 14 2007, 12:17 AM
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#99
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
Not really. Trolls are generally regarded as a small minority in most SR settings (including Seattle). Exceptions exist, such as Kingdom of Hawaii (or however you spell it) and the Black Forest, but these are exceptions.
Research labs and boardrooms are not for eating or shopping, and don't really have any jobs offered that require massive size and strength anyway so it's cheaper to just draw candidates from the other 92% of the population (that tend to be smarter, more social, and even more dexterous for hands-on work).
Yeah. I'm pretty sure that the corps have a lot to fear here. Multinational corps with extraterritoriality can just drop their citizenship - no citizenship = no job. Affirmative action is dead in SR, and the troll tends to have the lowest mental stats - the ones typically will lead to successful employment. Face facts, they are not going to be the 'best candidate' for most non-physical labor or security work in any event. |
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Nov 14 2007, 12:19 AM
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#100
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
BOOK? NOW WE'RE TALKING! i can laugh at pretty much anything if i get to READ it ^^ seriously . . tried it once . . watched movie and read script . . script had me laughing . . movie . . meh . . but enough of this . . more big posts concerning big issues of/with bigger trolls than me ^^ |
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