Getting busted and the justice system.. Options

[Pendaric]

Am running a prison break/rescue plot line for my group, so I have had occasion to scour both my and my player SR collection on the subject of law and the prison system.
Most is in SotA 64 Lone Star section covering the UCAS and CAS systems.
My basic gripe is that it fails to deliver the majestic Orwellian dystopia, specifically in the legal system portion.
Why create a criminal underclass with curtailed rights (probationary citizens aka SINless) and then proved them the full rights of the constitution given to a full citizen?
Why would a SINless individual receive due process basically?

Is this FanPro wimping out or is it including due process for involved game play?
If the the former, what should the law/SOP be for the SINless criminals in the legal system.

You do not have a right to council.
You do not have the right to the fifth amendment.
You do not get a phone call.
You do not get a jury of your peers. (Be cause your peers are all criminal scum)

etc ?

[nezumi]

I generally assume that people in the UCAS at least like to feel like they're civil, and the laws need to provide for those cases where a person who is actually important, but happens not to have a SIN, is brought to court.

However:

You do not have a right to council.
- I'm sure they allow a free lawyer because it speeds things up. Otherwise the defendant just wants to talk, talk, talk. The lawyer can push him to a plea deal or to throw himself on the mercy of the court. Of course, said lawyer isn't especially interested in actually gathering or presenting evidence or anything, since he gets paid the same regardless. But he'll help make sure the proceedings are followed properly to avoid a mistrial, and that his client is properly kept under control.

You do not have the right to the fifth amendment.
- They get a trial, if that's what you're saying. It's just the judge can draw on his professional experience, which happens to be that in all the previous cases he's presided over, the SINless was found guilty and properly convicted.

You do not get a phone call.
- There is no right to a phone call, that's generally a courtesy extended by the local police department. Of course, people with money get more courtesies. SINless scum get a cell.

You do not get a jury of your peers. (Be cause your peers are all criminal scum)
- The jury must be registered citizens - aka people with SINs. No court of law I've ever heard of had a jury of illegal immigrants. However, the UCAS Bill of Rights only extends to UCAS citizens (people with SINs), therefore there is no guaranteed fifth amendment like we know it, nor a right to a jury by one's peers. There IS a right to a fair trial, however, under a registered judge. I suppose one could argue that anyone tried by UCAS law has right to a jury, however most states also have laws that say certain cases are too small to be worth bothering a jury (traffic violations and violations under a cost of $5 or $10k are regular examples). On the one hand, most crimes SINless are accused of will be under that monetary threshold, so they can be dealth with relatively quickly. On the other hand, in those cases where they aren't, there may be a law saying 'all the provisions of the fifth amendment apply except X when applied to non-citizens'. Either one wouldn't surprise me.

[Fortune]

The question should be about what happens before any arrest, because as soon as a SINless person is arrested (not merely convicted), they are no longer SINless, as a SIN is immediately provided.

This criminal SIN would be treated exactly the same as any other normal SIN of a person convicted of a crime. The difference would be that the formerly SINless person will retain a criminal SIN afterwards even if he is acquitted, whereas a SINner who is arrested but not convicted will have the newly-acquired criminal portion of his SIN suppressed (but probably not eliminated from the records).

[Pendaric]

The point I am making here is why does a SINless individual gain more rights by breaking the law?
Yes the UCAS has a large junk of the Canadian and USA constitution in its laws but the SIN Act of Congress surely should supercede it in regards to 'probationary' citizens.
Once given a criminal SIN for the ease of the system, surely a more streamlined and less 'fair' method of processing should be in place for reasons of economy.
It does state in SotA 64 to its credit, that you need to pay for a lawyer but when your a walking breach of the law thanks to your 'wear, why take you to trial when they have you banged to rights?
From what is stated in the BBB to the SotA entry there is a definate change of tone.

[kzt]

Basically you are sinless by choice (or your parents choice) and you have to work to remain that way. The government doesn't like people who are not in the data bases. They can't collect taxes, etc, etc. So they want people to have a SIN.

[Slump]

[kzt]

[nezumi]

Nor can you get a second SSN. There are several cases of individuals who wanted ones for the reasons you stated explicitly, but were not granted such. The government is not capable of handling people with TWO special numbers.

I've not heard anyone claim that not having a SIN is a choice. Quite to the contrary, everything I've read indicates that those without a SIN are pretty upset because of it. They can't own property, they can't legally buy anything, they can't have a job. Who would choose to have that? Sure you can get a criminal SIN, but most people who get that don't manage to breed afterwards.

As has been said, a criminal SIN is just a number to note firstly how long you're supposed to be in braindance, and secondly that you should pay taxes. Everyone in the UCAS has certain basic rights, including to a right to a trial for a crime (not saying that right isn't regularly ignored, just that it's on the books). They do *NOT* have a right to own property, buy or sell, etc. That is reserved for citizens. So a criminal SIN is just attaching a number to someone who is already *ahem* exercising his rights. I don't know that a criminal SIN allows you to buy property and so on, but I would assume that it is obvious it is a criminal SIN, so a lot of people will still decline to do business with you on those grounds.

[hyzmarca]

You can get a second SSN. It is rather easy to do, in fact. You simply need to use falsified identity documents to obtain it. This is probably illegal, however. The Social Security Administration doesn't check very hard. The last time I got my card replaced the only ID I had on me was a library card (it was merely a plain piece of paper with some library info printed on it and my name written on it with an ink pen laminated between two pieces of clear plastic, there was no picture and no anti-counterfeiting features). It was accepted without hesitation.

[Mercer]

A SIN isn't just a UCAS citizenship; it more like citizenship in the recognized world. The System in "SIN" blankets nations and megacorporations; your citizenship in a particular one is a separate issue. I think there are two types of SINless in SR, those people who chose to go off the grid and live their lives outside the law, and those the system doesn't particuarly want. If the governements and corporations wanted to they could roll into the barrens, round up the squatters and assign them all numbers and release them back into the wild, like ducks, but they don't. Because 1) If those people were in the system, that would mean they existed and someone might have to do something about them (provide food, shelter, clean water) and 2) If they're broke, they don't have anything to tax anyway. A SINless squatter can't legally own land, but even if he could his total assets are measured in the contents of a shopping cart. SINless people put into the system (they buy things and pay sales tax where it exists, or the money they pay goes to people who do pay taxes), and they don't take anything out.

Law enforcement is less about the bottom line, in that if they arrest someone, they're going to want to find them again, so its understandable they give numbers to identify the people they deal with. If you don't give someone a number and a way to track it, every offense will be their first offense.

A SINless person who gets arrested will be assigned a SIN, but they might not get it right away. The book (Lone Star Sourcebook maybe?) says its a part of the booking process, but I think its fair to assume there are times when the protocol is not followed exactly. Lone Star investigators (or any corporate or gov't officer, depending on who's running the show) might decide to delay that booking process if leverage or coercion is needed. Since the person doesn't exist until they say he exists, someone could linger in custody with no rights at all.

In the UCAS, I guess the hierarchy would look something like this:

UCAS Citizens have full rights.

SINned Non-Citizens (citizens elsewhere) probably have pretty much the same rights. They might face deportation for crimes (even misdemeanors) instead of the usual punishments, but largely they get the same treatment.

SINless (citizens of nowhere) aren't in the system at all. Technically, they don't have rights because they don't exist until they're in the system, but they get put in the system pretty easily. It's still a crime to murder a SINless person, for example. The SIN might be applied posthumously, but they'll get one. (The difficulties in investigating the murder of the SINless will still be steep, which is what makes them good targets for serial, spree and thrill killers.)

Basically, everybody has rights (unless they're a shapeshifter or something and the governing body considers them wildlife), but in dystopian cyberpunk settings, denying people their basic human rights is pretty easy.

[Fortune]

[Kagetenshi]

Wildlife have rights legal rights too, at least anywhere with animal cruelty laws.

Fortune: it's been a while since I perused Lone Star, but why do you suggest there's significant oversight? Am I forgetting some very significant things there?

~J

[Mercer]

[Fortune]

I don't mean oversight from Lone Star (or Knight Errant) themselves. I mean that Big Brother is everywhere, and there are too many cameras around to pull this kind of stuff on a regular basis. I am not saying that it never happens, but that it would be somewhat rare, as not a whole lot is gained by just locking away a SINless person instead of just giving him a SIN and doing it properly. If you didn't want to process the criminal, then he probably would have been dealt with in the field, where there is no need to issue him a SIN, or deal with the paperwork.

[Fortune]

[Mercer]

Not to make it a political argument, but its not like similar things don't go on today.

And saying "there's usually no advantage to be gained by doing so," implies that when there is an advantage to be gained, it'll be done in a heartbeat.

[Kagetenshi]

[kzt]

The problem is that the managers of Lone Star want to know what is going on. Managers hate surprises. So I'd expect cameras everywhere. It's not like the FOP will challenge this, now is it?

[Mercer]

For some reason, I find the argument that my rights can't be denied because Big Brother is watching to be somewhat less than comforting.

[Kagetenshi]

[Fortune]

But what is the point of doing so? What does Lone Star gain? Outside of the occasional shadowrunner that might be of some future use, there is no point just holding Joe SINless for days on end without processing him. Even if we only look at the bottom line, an unprocessed criminal isn't worth any money to Lone Star, whereas each processed SINner (whether formerly SINless or not) that is being held for trial is money in the bank (literally as well as figuratively).

[Mercer]

[ShadowDragon8685]

[Mercer]

That's a little grim for the UCAS or Lone Star, but with less reputable governments, corporations and organizations, I could see it.

There are a host of other reasons a corp might not register a SINless captive, including to use as slave labor (probably not in Seattle, or test subjects in "clinical trials", or food for ghoul guards or the vampire VP of Human Resources. I guess a lot of it depends on where you are being arrested and who's arresting you.

[Ravor]

Too grim ... Lone Star ... reputable?