 Stun damage house-rule, Potential problems? |
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 Nov 28 2007, 05:57 PM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 23-February 06 Member No.: 8,301  |
Malicant, I'm not really sure what that comment had to do with the quote. The guy said some people perceive stun as less lethal. Which is true. People do think that. So, um, what's the issue?
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 Nov 28 2007, 07:24 PM
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#27
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,173 Joined: 27-July 05 From: some backwater node Member No.: 7,520 |
If you increase the stuntrack a taser will have a hard time doing what it's supposed to do, don't you think? That is my point, really. The stuntrack increase houserule causes stupid problems. I think it shuould be easier to knock someone out using nonleathal means. Simple non leathel means. Witch does not work with this houserule.
Another funny sideeffect is drain. Mages FTW. This thread sounds to me like "I can't deal with my players, how can I change the rules in my favor?". I always get a little worked up when I read houserules. Don't take it personal. :) |
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Nov 28 2007, 08:14 PM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 23-February 06 Member No.: 8,301 |
That's not a bad reason to houserule something. If something unbalances the game, or makes it function in a way that doesn't feel appropriate to the setting as portrayed in my game, it likely gets houseruled. Game developers are people who design and write game rules. They're not infallible. So I change things I don't like, for whatever reason. There's nothing wrong with that as long as the players are in on it. I've never made a house rule that the players didn't agree with or trust me on. I agree, however, that you need to be careful with houserules. For example, you're totally right about extending the stun track. It's a dangerous change, precisely because mages can then more easily throw around magic. Personally, I don't mind the rules as-is. My players use lethal methods as much as they do non-lethal. Just depends on the needs of the situation. |
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Nov 28 2007, 08:37 PM
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#29
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
To answer the poster who asked about Stunball and the K/O Drug, well personally I've never had much of a problem with either one of those, in part because I really focus on the Pink Mohawk Aspect of Shadowrun, in my campaigns, if a Johnson were to come to a meet and be greeted by a team of Ice-Cold-Pros his first thought would be that he was being set up by a corp hit squad, Runners are supposed to have big hair, piercings, and an attitude big enough to blot out the sun. (In fact in my games the act of spending Edge means that you have just done something over-the-top and quite possibly just told the Universe to go fraq itself, something which puts the Mohawks on par with the Pros in terms of getting things done since the Pros tend not to have a high Edge, they just don't have the attitude to pull it off.)
I couple this with the idea that Spell Formula isn't just bought and sold, Magic is too rare and personal for most Mages to be willing to mass produce their hard-won mojo, so magical Formula tends to be traded as opposed to bought. (As a side-effect, Arcana is a must-have skill for every wanna-be wizard.) When combined with allowing "custom spells" to be bought at Char-gen provided the character has enough of a Dicepool to design spells by buying Hits (Including Edge.) I get a world where most mages run around with flashy elemental spells even though the direct combat spells may be more "effective", after all chummer, rep matters, and you get more street cred when you can call lighting from the heavens or sling bolts of pure Plamsa (Fire + Lighting) then merely being able to channel Mana into your target, after all, where is the style in that? However, to bring everything full circle, even though Runners are expected to stand out, the whole Pink Mohawk Crowd style has been throughly co-oped by the corps and posers are a dime-a-dozen, and due in part because of a smaller spell selection even the most powerful Mage still tends to rely on mundane means whenever possible. Still it works for me and my players... |
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Nov 28 2007, 10:48 PM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 246 Joined: 26-January 06 Member No.: 8,198 |
This aspect of Shadowrun died in Fields of Fire, check out the comments made by the lord of cyberware. |
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Nov 28 2007, 10:56 PM
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#31
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Target Group: Members Posts: 76 Joined: 12-September 07 Member No.: 13,233 |
You know, I've never forayed onto the CP side of things...runners have always, in our games, been the bugs scurrying in the shadows of the soul-less corps. (Well, maybe more like rats or feral cats...) I'm not sure I'm eager to change the flavor of our current campaign, but your description is definately intriguing. |
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Nov 29 2007, 12:05 AM
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#32
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Eh.
I don't see most non-lethal weapons being all that superior (mechanically) to lethal forms. Especially when you add in burst fire capabilities to the equation. They're simply more beneficial to whichever side is using it for all the reasons mentioned earlier. They also has their downsides, though. Neurostun, for instance, isn't going to do jack squat against a drone or elemental, and all the stunbolts in the world isn't going to blow open that door for you. As others have said, people still use lethal forms of combat for a variety of reasons. So I really don't see the fuss; logically, mechanically, or philosophically. |
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Nov 29 2007, 12:22 AM
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#33
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Well personally I've never much cared for Hatchetman, but the way I read (skimed) the Shadowtalk in the first chapter it sounds to me like he is whining about the fact that the Shadows don't tend to follow Matador's code.
It's not for everyone and if you aren't careful it can start looking like a bad 80s movie. Of course, in my opinion there are worse things for a campaign to strive for as well. :cyber: |
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Nov 29 2007, 12:45 PM
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#34
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
Alright, I accept your opinion. I don't see how you think a taser (8S AP -1/2) is not better than light and heavy pistols (5P AP -1). Burst fire doesen't help, as a SMG or even assault rifle with Stick'n Shock is just as good if not better than one with regular ammo designed to kill. Only the heaviest of weapons are better with P rather than S, and they have alot more drawbacks as well. But my problem is not with Neurostun, unarmed damage or even stunbolt, but mostly with electrical stun damage. People still use lethal damage.. yes as I tried to tell Malicant, people still act based on what they think rather than what is a fact. A Troll Sammie might want to use A panther assault cannon even though a HMG with APDS is probably more effective. But some use whatever is the most effective or efficient, and right now that is often electrical stun weapons. Hank, I've discussed this with my group and the conclusion so far is that extending the stun track is a bad move just to fix some weapons. The damage from stun-based magic isn't really that high (it's the low drain that is the problem there IMO), unarmed damage is mostly a joke, and melee weapons that cause stun isn't a problem. The only really broken weapons are the electrical stun damage weapons, particarily tasers and S&S. SO we're thinking of just lowering the damage of these weapons by 2 across the board. The exception is probably stun baton/gloves as these doesen't have that much damage to begin with. As for the spells I'll change the drain of stunbolt/ball to the mana equivalent. Thus Stunbolt/ball will still be as good as the lethal versions of them and a good alternative. |
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Nov 29 2007, 01:30 PM
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#35
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
you say that, as if that were such a bad thing O.o Running Pulp Fiction Style can be pretty sweet now and then ^^ |
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Nov 29 2007, 01:58 PM
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#36
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
What's Pulp Fiction got to do with bad 80's movies? |
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Nov 29 2007, 02:24 PM
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#37
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,173 Joined: 27-July 05 From: some backwater node Member No.: 7,520 |
Thanks for trying, but I already knew that, as hinted in my first rant :) I just dislike houserules. But if someone needed a houserule to lessen the impact of electrical stun damage, I would suggest to remove Stick'n'Shock and to remind the player using a taser that there are fricking wires dangling from him to his target, so it's nice to put a single target out, but in combat it's shock and drop. If these wires weren't a hindrance by being easily removed, there would be not much point in mentioning them. And no, those are not magical or supertechno wires we are talking here. Also, the wirefree Taser is pretty lame being SS and 6S damage. Not tremendously gamebreaking, but next to useless IMO if reduced to 4S damage. That's still better than the stuntrack increase. :spin: SR is not D&D. Sometimes you can stop players by a simple realitycheck. But than again, SR does not explode if you start houseruling. Still I believe houserules cause more trouble than they solve.
If you consider the solution to this problem at the time of my rant was the increase of the stuntrack it should make much more sense. I hope. If not, just ignore me :) |
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Nov 29 2007, 03:05 PM
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#38
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
Your point was that since your players don't all use stun weapons, they are not broken. My point was that even if not everyone uses them, they can still be broken because anyway who wants what most effective and takes his time to read the rules will find the stun weapons so. But then again you only read one line of my posts anyway and ignores the rest so why do I bother. Wires isn't much a drawback. They can probably be relased as soon as the charge is delivered, or it could even be stealth wire that self destructs. I'm sorry if you don't like supertechno wires, but this is actually Science Fiction, and it exists in game so why not? Ruleswise, you can fire one 8S attack per round, modified by net hits. It can be fired just as fast as the Warhawk, and it deals more damage and has better armor penetration than one too, even if loaded with EX-EX ammo! The wirefree taser is SA, not SS, which means after my nerf it is just as effective as most light pistols. Better really, since they are cheaper, legal, and has alot better armor penetration. If you think this makes them useless then light pistols (barring the fubuki) are useless as well. And let's not forget the excelent side effect of electrical damage. Most people will be out of the fight if they fail their test, even if they don't take enough damage to drop unconscious. Houseruling can be bad, that's why I take the time to confer with people on these boards as well as my players rather than arbitrarily making changes according to my whims. Since GMs don't always do that, house rules may cause alot of trouble. |
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Nov 29 2007, 04:21 PM
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#39
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Target Group: Members Posts: 76 Joined: 12-September 07 Member No.: 13,233 |
Yeah, I'm going to talk it over with my players. On the one hand, I have a guy who's planning on going unarmed, and unarmed damage is "underpowered." On the other hand, I want to throw neurostun at and the like at my players, and I'm hesitant to do that as things stand. I could make up new gas grenades, but I think the stun-track extension is an elegant solution to a lot of problems. As some of you point out, there are other potential problems...in particular, I think the unarmed damage is a good point.
However, none of the problems anyone's pointed out are, IMO, as bad as the glaring imbalance of stun damage vs physical, so I want to try it. If my players don't, we won't. I don't understand why people don't like houserules. (I was going to put some reasons why houserules are often needed/justified, but why would I? You don't like houserules. I do. I don't think anything's going to change, no matter what we write.) (I put quotes around underpowered because it makes perfect sense that unarmed damage would be much lower than armed damage. But this is a game, and we want our characters to be cool, so unarmed characters should be playable, and do about as much damage as armed characters, although that makes no sense.) |
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Nov 29 2007, 04:22 PM
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#40
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,173 Joined: 27-July 05 From: some backwater node Member No.: 7,520 |
No, my players were just an example for this problem not beeing one at all, because only a minority cares. My point is that houserules suck. Always. No exception. Evar. :)
Then why were they mentioned at all? If you go science fiction, why use wires at all? Why not only those without? Why not have a lightningbolt thrower? Oh, right, that's called a mage :P Whatever. I see the potential problem with tasers and their kin, but refuse to see an unbalance and hence the need for houseruling. I can as easily fry my players with tasers, as they fry my goons. SR is a dangerous game. :) If a rule/mechanism does not effect both players and NSCs equally I start to accept houserules, but everything else gets torch and pitchforks :rotfl: |
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Nov 29 2007, 05:25 PM
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#41
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
An option is to increase the realism of electrical weapons and not have them do stun damage at all. Tasers and stun guns don't knock people out. Stun guns inflict pain on people, tasers (in probe mode) physiologically incapacitate them. Neither is going to leave someone unconscious for hours, as they can do in SR. |
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Nov 29 2007, 05:31 PM
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#42
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
Unarmed damage, or actualy melee damage at all IS underpowered in that it can only be used when very close, you have to halve dice pools to do more than one per complex action, and that you need to be a troll to rival the damage you get from guns. I like 2 out of 3 of this disadvantages, but w strong warrior (4 str) should be able to do alot of damage with a katana or other sword. A good chop from your blade can take your head off or cleave you in half, a pistol shot (even from a magnum .44) can't do that, no matter what Clint Eastwood says. So AT LEAST make sure you don't nerf close combat damage more than it is by extending the stun track - it's already very hard to play a successful martial artist as it is. And I think you underestimate the impact this will have on mages and spellcasting - it's like giving a D&D mage 1.5 times the number of spell slots and not thinking it will matter. Much better just to nerf a few weapons - after all is the 5S shock glove that overpowered? Or the str/2+1S Sap? |
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Nov 29 2007, 05:57 PM
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#43
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Target Group: Members Posts: 76 Joined: 12-September 07 Member No.: 13,233 |
Nope. My mages can't overcast to the physical track. The two house-rules go together...I think mages actually wind up a bit nerfed with these two rules. |
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Nov 29 2007, 06:07 PM
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#44
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Maybe you could try making (non-magical) electrical damage not stage up. Keep Stick'n'Shock ammo at 6S and the taser at 8S, but rule that net hits don't actually pump more electricity into the target.
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Nov 29 2007, 06:29 PM
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#45
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
No, I didn't say anything of the sort.
Boldfacing Added.
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Nov 29 2007, 06:47 PM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 433 Joined: 8-November 07 Member No.: 14,097 |
Clearly, people aren't wearing enough nonconductive armor in your game ;) |
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Nov 29 2007, 06:50 PM
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#47
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Just brainstorming here: What about an "overflow" track between stun and physical. It doesn't make you any more unconscious, but an already unconscious person can take a few extra boxes of stun before it shows up on their physical track.
I don't know, I really don't have much of a problem with it, but I agree that the electrical weapons should probably have an incapacitating mechanic other than Stun damage. |
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Nov 29 2007, 07:31 PM
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#48
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
It's extremely difficult to have a "realistic" system with a stun track.
If you get punched hard, you'll be stunned for a few seconds, then you'll be okay but a bit dizzy for a few minutes/hours, then you'll be okay but it might still hurt. But it won't be the same if you get a lot of light punches or one heavy punch. It also won't be the same if you get electrified, tired, tear-gazed, drugged... Once again you can chose to use some abstractions (and maybe use GM call an common sense to tweak the rules for special cases) or you can chose to play Advanced Rolemaster. |
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Nov 29 2007, 10:46 PM
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#49
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
Ok if you have other house rules balancing this it's another matter. I don't see why not allowing them to overcast and take P drain helps though... if you give them more stun boxes then they can take more drain damage before going down when NOT overcasting, is that not right? How is giving them more stun nerfing them? (except if they use stun spells too much). Fortune that could work, but It makes tasers useless as weapons. And Gel rounds that much better in comparison. And then Gel is the only option for PC wanting to knock out enemies for a long time without killing them. Sponge: Good nonconductivity costs 1000 nuyen. That more than doubles the armor cost for security guards or street thugs - might as well give them all the most expensive models and internal smartlinks+beefed out glasses or lenses. Nonconductivity is reserved for High Threat response teams, Elites, and Shadowrunners. Most others don't need them, and it's much more ecconomical for corps not to equip everyone with it as it will only encourage criminals to use lethal weapons, which results in alot higher ecconomical loss (massive damage or death). So instead of arbitrarily giving everyone nonconductivity I'd rather nerf tasers and SS. Sorry. Moon Hawk: I don't think that helps. The problem is tasers 100% incapacitating enemies more effectively than guns, not the potential for killing people with stun. Blade: Yes. I don't want to play Rolemaster (again). The simpler the better. |
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Nov 29 2007, 11:34 PM
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#50
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Two words: Pain Editor. Stun damage seems great, until you go up against a character with one.
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