 Shadowrun without Earthdawn as past, Quick Poll |
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 Dec 8 2007, 11:43 AM
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#101
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600  |
Actually, its said quite frequently that magic is based on belief, not as a fact (since no one really knows how anything works), but as a guess. Its one of the in-game theories that attempts to explain how magic works. Remember when you said:
Dipping to the nearest thesaurus, implicit directs us to oblique, which lists in part:
So what's the problem? Even the example of the Dragon Totem, the guy went from being the head of the cult to being a Dragon Totem Shaman. Now, either that is the greatest coincidence in the world, or belief was a factor. Hell, even if the theory is totally, 100% wrong (not that anything in game is proveable), it is still all over the system in oblique, implicit, implied, coded, veiled and hinted at references. |
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Dec 8 2007, 12:25 PM
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#102
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
isn't there even a kind of magician that switches totems like other people switch their weapons? O.o
kinda like evry other . . not sure if it was week, but i think it was month another totem with another set of benefits and deficits to boot O.o |
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Dec 8 2007, 02:51 PM
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#103
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Not unless it's in some zany German book, like Immortal Dwarves.
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Dec 8 2007, 03:59 PM
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#104
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
Oh come on other races being immortal is cool. We had this one super powerful troll in ED that we decided to say that he'd eventually reach 15th circle and become immortal. In my SR game the real Yeti is this troll. He's been living up in the Himalayas only occasionally venturing out of his cave for food. |
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Dec 8 2007, 05:14 PM
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#105
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
There were pantheistic shamans in MitS. |
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Dec 8 2007, 07:08 PM
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#106
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
Earthdawn tie-ins in sourcebooks: crappy What you just said: awesome I've got no reasoning behind this; I'm just going with what my gut tells me. |
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Dec 8 2007, 11:47 PM
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#107
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 170 Joined: 23-March 06 From: Drowning in the pollution of Mass Bay Member No.: 8,401 |
I voted "Yes, SR without ED is still SR" on the basis that you have no need to refer to ED to run SR and have a good game.
After all, isn't SR about having some elf shoot some ork in the face 'cause some human paid him to, and then shooting the human in the face 'cause he set the elf up? |
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Dec 9 2007, 01:31 AM
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#108
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
the point we disagree on, i think, is that you accept the belief theory as being true, and i view it as one possibility. at least, that's what i'm getting from statements like "one of the cornerstones of SR is that belief influences reality and that certain magical traditions work because people believe they work." we both agree that the evidence is inconclusive, but--i think, anyway, based on what you've been saying--you choose to accept that evidence, and i choose not to.
or it could be numbers. no way as Dragonson the only nutjob Dunkie freak to start a cult, right? out of all of them, there had to be a few unexpressed magicians. Dragonson, being an unexpressed Dragon shaman, is drawn to start a cult of his own. where other cults go nowhere, his grows because he's a charismatic, intelligent guy who is really, really driven by his love for all things dragon. crazy people can be so convincing, especially in the sixth world. so Dragonson does the whole introspection thing, gets in touch with himself, and actually Awakens, finally fully realizing the potential that had been driving him the whole time. now, i'm not presenting that scenario as The Truth. i'm presenting it as a possibility--a possibility that is touched on (in far less detail) in the same SR material that raises the possibility of Dragonson Awakening through the power of his own belief. i don't see any hard evidence in SR to support the belief theory. i see a lot of circumstantial evidence, but i don't choose to assume the belief theory is true based on that evidence. |
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Dec 9 2007, 01:41 AM
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#109
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
The fact that the rules support and encourage you to create your own traditions, whatever they may be, is more than a simple implication; it's a downright "yes, it is based on your belief."
The fact that there can be/are/will be Elvis shaman, Toaster shaman, and Teletubby Magi -- all of which are 100% supported, appropriate, and viable by the rules -- says more about the subject than anything else can. Unless, of course, you want to seriously try and argue that Elvis, Toasters, and Teletubbies are real gods that have always existed and always will exist, but no one knew about them until a short time ago. If it didn't work that way, there wouldn't be variations of a theme. Everyone's magic would work exactly the same, especially within a given tradition. The individuality of magical effects -- spells and spirits alike -- are solid proof that the belief of their creator (ie, the magician) is the key and that mana is just a shapeless, formless energy until willed into being something more specific. |
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Dec 9 2007, 01:44 AM
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#110
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
Elvis, Toaster, and Teletubby totems could simply be modern manifestations of other, more primal entities. and that individuality is certainly proof of something, but not necessarily what you say. it could simply be proof of how complex the magical universe is. or it could be proof that while belief shapes magic, it doesn't alter it at any significant level.
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Dec 9 2007, 02:24 AM
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#111
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
I guess our definitions of "shapes" and "alters" are drastically different.
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Dec 9 2007, 02:50 AM
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#112
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
it's a question of how great the effect is. belief can affect what your summoned spirits look like, it might affect what totem you get. that doesn't necessarily mean it can allow you to break the 'rules' of magic and/or create something completely new. basically, it goes back to the original point that started this whole tangent--someone proposed that the reason SR magic and ED magic are different is that people in SR believe different things from people in ED. i think that the material in SR hints that this may be true, but it presents enough counterevidence (largely through lack of evidence) that i'm not convinced. and i don't think the material is intended to convince the reader that the belief theory is true--i think the material is intended to simply raise the possibility and make you wonder.
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Dec 9 2007, 02:55 AM
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#113
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 472 Joined: 14-June 07 Member No.: 11,909 |
Now that's one of the most strangest and funniest arguments I've read. :rotfl: |
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Dec 9 2007, 02:59 AM
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#114
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
there are a lot of wacky people who believe a lot of wacky things. that's true today, when there isn't much evidence that magic is real. i can only imagine that such wackiness would reach critical mass if one in every hundred people you knew could perform real, tangible magical effects. i don't think SR has nearly enough wackiness in it to justify the theory that anybody who believes something really hard can make it come true.
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Dec 9 2007, 04:16 AM
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#115
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 640 Joined: 8-October 07 Member No.: 13,611 |
It could be that they aren't that powerful, either, so they only can imbue so many (or only one, even) avatars at a time. |
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Dec 9 2007, 07:31 AM
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#116
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 861 Joined: 27-November 07 Member No.: 14,397 |
Must.. make.. elvis shaman.. Jokes aside... no, jokes not aside, must go summon elvis to sway the hearts of my enemies with his songs.. or something. Oh, but one thing to point out: Yes, the magic is different for each individual mage, but every persons hair is just slightly different, as are their fingerprints. Perhaps it isn't that the mage's beliefs affect their magic, but something about the mage affects both their magic and their beliefs. Just because A and B corrilate doesn't mean A causes B. As an example: On certain days, it is observed that more icecream is sold, on these same days it is also observed that more violent crimes happen. Conclusion? Icecream causes violence. But as we know this isn't true, it is the fact that it is a hot day that causes both to increase. A and B corrilate, but both are caused by C. Perhaps magic and belief are both caused by something else, aura, or maybe genes, or who knows what it could be. |
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Dec 9 2007, 08:02 AM
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#117
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
I agree with mfb that, while magic is shaped by belief, the belief only lets your mind tap into that energy - it still operates by its own rules. One mage might summon a djinn, one might summon a swirling cloud of bats, one might summon a whirlwind with glowing eyes, and one might summon a gossammer-tressed sylph. However, all of these spirits will all have the stats for an air spirit.
On the other hand, while belief can only tap into magic, not break its rules, that same belief can act as a limiter. The old psionic tradition couldn't use certain spells, because those spells didn't fit into their explanation of magic as psychic abilities. So you don't need to have the laws of magic themselves changing for Earthdawn magic to be weaker, you only have to have a reinforcing pattern of belief, built up over generations, that magic can do so much, and no more, in certain areas. That's if you absolutely have to shoehorn Earthdawn into there. I can't quite buy it, myself, because I don't see how you could have no one ever making an intuitive leap and breaking one of those "limits". |
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Dec 9 2007, 08:26 AM
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#118
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
But that's almost purely for ease of bookkeeping purposes. It would be a nightmare to try to delineate each and every belief system as a totally separate and statted-out magic system. It's all in the fluff! |
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Dec 9 2007, 09:08 AM
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#119
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Let's look at it another way, then. Dragons, Earthdawn, the Horrors, and the Origin of the World.
Dragons had a theory that the Horrors were responsible for creating the world and everything. Nevermind that they weren't there to witness it, that doesn't matter. It's their creation myth and a firm belief for many of them. A belief held by, arguably, the most powerfully innate magicians the world has ever known; to a point where they're nearly one in the same. Not surprisingly, that mass belief by a huge cadre of mind-bogglingly powerful magicians ended up becoming "true." At least the existance of these Horrors -- creates that come from the deepest, darkest corner of the astral plane (a place of pure mana). And low and behold, they were every bit as powerful as those amazingly potent magicians claimed they were. Right down to every single detail. Details they knew nothing about first hand, except through their creation myth. So, much like most religions, which is it? Did the Horrors actually exist and create the world exactly as those ignorant but powerful magicians said they did, or did those ignorant but powerful magicians inadvertedly cause the myths, dreams, and nightmares to manifest through their belief? And how did they know all these amazing facts without being there themselves? Basically, did God create man, or did man create God? And on another tangent, if [god(s) of choice] did manifest physically what becomes of faith? Something that practically relies on your beliefs not having any solid proof? |
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Dec 9 2007, 09:54 AM
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#120
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 858 Joined: 25-August 03 From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States Member No.: 5,537 |
Actually, those weren't immortal dwarfs but supposedly a surviving ED era kaer that preserved its culture. And the book in question was a novel. When the idea was later picked up in an actual sourcebook the whole "dwarf cave kingdom" thing was explained as a modern invention, a fantasy-style pseudo-medieval community founded only a few years ago by an all-dwarven group of LARPers/history buffs/religious nuts. As the shadowtalk says, they are very friendly but you should never question their "ancient dwarf religion" or make fun of their clothes and strange "dwarf language". It's actually a bit like the movie The Village where everybody except the elders (the project founders) firmly believes he's living in the 18th century because that's what he was told all his life... |
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Dec 9 2007, 10:21 AM
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#121
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
eh, there's a lot of play there too. dragons learn telepathically, as i recall, starting when they're still in the egg. it's possible that draconic "myth" is accurate because all dragons do have first-hand knowledge of the truth--passed down directly from mind to mind with each generation. or maybe their myths were as fuzzy and incorrect as human myths, and they just said they'd been right all along. "oh, yeah, like i said, this type of Horror has tentacles. did i say it had wings, before? you must've misheard me. don't mishear me again, or i'll eat you." |
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Dec 9 2007, 11:41 AM
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#122
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
As a side note (since this whole discussion is a side note to the original post), it seems entirely possible to say that "belief influencing reality is a cornerstone of SR magic" and that "no one knows exactly how magic works nor will they ever." Those aren't mutually exclusive phrases, and both are borne out again and again in the fluff.
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Dec 9 2007, 05:42 PM
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#123
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
actually their creation myth seems to point to the fact that a Dragon was actually one of the Horrors but it had a pang of conscience and fled to Earth to live in peace where it made the other Name Givers. |
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Dec 9 2007, 05:59 PM
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#124
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Meh, personally I like another option, Dragons like all other intelligent beings make up myths that inflate their own place in the universe. Remember that Earthdawn is the Fourth World, so assuming that the Mana Cycle theory is correct the myth just doesn't hold true, no mana means no magical Horror/Dragons being able to redeem themselves and bring life to the world in the First World.
Also remember that even if you throw the Dragon Myth out then the world has already gone through a Scrouge in the Second Age (Or more if you assume that the Mana Cycle has always come and gone and we only call it the Sixth World beause that is what the fragging Dragons claim.) so it isn't really all that impressive to me that the Dragons were able to describe the Horrors in their myths in the Fourth World. |
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Dec 9 2007, 07:12 PM
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#125
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Target Group: Members Posts: 24 Joined: 2-January 06 From: Seattle Member No.: 8,117 |
On magic: the discussion here only seems to show that the MitS had it right. If you ask 10 different mages what the nature of magic is, you'll get 13 different answers.
Personally, I like the high level of customization the SR4 gives us. While it did have to 'blandify' hermetization and shamanism a bit, it's important to note that it seems that Shadowrun has been trying to broaden its focus. It's no longer cyberpunk in North America. It's a world stage, with all the mixtures that would be provided by a 'fast forwarded' current real world. It includes the cyberpunk staples, of course; a virtual reality network, and cyberware. It also has stuff cyberpunk never thought of in the early days. Bioware, nanoware, advanced manufacturing techniques ( that aren't just fancy black boxes that work 'very well, thank you' ); all things which our current progress hints at. And so, magic changed with it. To allow for a wider variety of beliefs to shape how magic works for people. Whether or not it is those beliefs shaping the magic, or if its that old stories, fairy tales, and personal religions from an older time are just being given a chance to re-manifest now that the mana level is up again. Which brings us to the ED angle. I -love- Shadowrun. While I've only ( heh. 'only' ) been playing since SR3, I love everything about the setting. While I recognize that there is supposed to be some kind of link with Earthdawn, I tend to ignore it. I realize that the dragons were alive in an earlier magic age. I recognize that the immortal elves have been around since that time, and are now doing whatever it is immortal elves do. However, I've never so much as seen an Earthdawn book. I do not know Earthdawn. I know that it is supposedly the source of the Horrors, which ( I think? ) are things like insect spirits ( score one point for magic not based on belief. I mean, how many people would have to -really believe- in those things to make them so very very true as to lead to a city being nuked? ), Shedim, and the like. Nice flavor touch, but it doesn't matter to me that my magical threats have a fancy umbrella name. And I don't know what Horrors are beyond that. Again, I do not know Earthdawn. This does not prevent me from running Shadowrun. My players are not archeologists, and they do not care about the source of this ultra-ancient rare artifact. They just nod, the mage says "Well, it's -theorized- that there was an earlier age of magi." *heads nod, voices go 'mmhmm', one guy goes 'oh god, Magey-boy's get talky on the run again', and the team moves on* I don't need Earthdawn. This is not meant to be an insult to it, but I don't feel that Shadowrun needs Earthdawn to be Shadowrun, either. Vaguely-related note on the Elvis ( edited: Typo. Said Elves before. ) shaman: Sure, they'll pop up. Belief forming magic, or magic being based on something more primitive/more 'real magic' in order to allow this belief to manifest the King for summon spells? Does it matter? While these can exist in the new rules, and players -will- make them ( players will do anything you let 'em get away with ), it's worthwhile to note that these rarities probably won't get far. There is probably a almost non-existent community to support the poor mage, and while he'll find plenty of true believers who'll tell him the King still lives, without a -magical- support community, his magic will probably suffer. He'll probably have to homebrew almost everything his does, and spend lots of karma on initiation ( unless he -can- find a group willing to suffer his bizarre magic interpretation ). A path only for the strong of will and stubborn of mind. Or crazy of mind. Nuttier things have happened. |
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