 Shadowrun without Earthdawn as past, Quick Poll |
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 Dec 6 2007, 10:40 AM
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#76
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600  |
It's been implicit in the system since long before that. SR has always had crazy people developing weird, inexplicable powers, borne largely out of their own demented faith. Its never been my favorite aspect of the SR universe, but been there for a long time. But my larger point is that by us gamers, Magic is treated like a hard science, because we're gamers and there's a lot of numbers involved and by-and-large you know what you can and can't do. We look in the rulebook and we find out exactly how things work, getting a specific GM ruling if we need it. As players, we don't have to deal with ambiguity. In game, its pretty much all ambiguity. |
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Dec 6 2007, 01:21 PM
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#77
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,245 Joined: 27-April 07 From: Running the streets of Southeast Virginia Member No.: 11,548 |
That's a simple answer... belief defines the magic. If you believe that magic works a certain way, then it does. When the collective belief establishes a certain form, then that form is used and others fall to the wayside due to lack of teachers, interest, etc. Mages is the 4th world used magic differently. Mages in the 6th use it differently too. Each world had their main version of magic. The other versions were probably there, but just no in great use / visibility. Think magical traditions and much of the commentary about Psionics... |
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Dec 6 2007, 02:19 PM
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#78
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
I agree that the only way to make ED fit is to assume that some Parlainth-style effect has removed most everything from the 4th World from existence, and that's just too much for me to buy into. Sure, you can imagine why it was done - to keep the neophyte magicians from using magic too early - but I still think it's crap.
I don't mind dragons, but I run them a bit less "metahuman-y" and a bit more alien. As for IEs - I don't really like too much about them and run them as powerful Free Spirits that have Inhabited the bodies of elves since the final days of the 4th World. Like dragons, they too are less "metahuman-y" in my game. |
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Dec 6 2007, 03:51 PM
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#79
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...If only believing that it doesn't work would give you immunity to magic, that would be so choice. ...ow, that still hurts! Stop tossing those manabolts at me... :grinbig: |
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Dec 6 2007, 04:31 PM
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#80
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
You know Filtering was carried over from SR3, right? |
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Dec 6 2007, 07:02 PM
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#81
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
You can get 4 dice for the Magic Resistance quality, but you have to pay for it like everybody else. (Belief can influence reality, but its a game and it still costs points.) @HappyDaze: I have a similar problem with the IE's and Great Dragons, in that their intelligence seems far too human for my taste. If something is really that smart, it should be somewhat unknowable to us mere mortals; instead of coming off as really smart people, they should be different. (There's a bit of a built in limitation there, in that an npc can only be as smart as the GM or the writer, plus or minus whatever cheating can get you, but I feel it still falls short of capturing an ancient, immortal being.) @et al: When I first read the Tir Tairngire book, I really liked it. As a sourcebook it was okay, but as a window into suspicion and paranoia of the IE conspiracy, I thought it was fantastic. I got creeped out reading it. It alluded to a lot of stuff, but it never came right out and said anything definitively. That's a much more effective was to produce dread, because nothing you write can really top the reader's imagination of the unknown. Going back and finding out exactly what happened makes the Tir book a great deal less effective in that regard. (This is my problem with the Call of Cthulhu games as well, which tend to take the mind-numbingly terrifying creatures of which the mortal mind cannot conceive and make them 32 HD monsters, with pictures.) As to the original poll, I have to object to the phrase "generic or homebrew fantasy world", simply because I don't think there is a need to define anything about the 4th world beyond saying it was history, with an unknown number of myths and legends actually being possible, partially true. Jesus could have been a magician (as in Spike Baby Messiah, which if nothing else might make a good band name), and Thor might have been a Force 20 Free Spirit. Or they might have been space aliens. Or they might be tarted up versions of relatively mundane people. My point being, I don't have to stat out prehistory for an SR game. |
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Dec 6 2007, 07:38 PM
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#82
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...in my book suspense is up there with intrigue and the two go hand in hand very well together. It is how I was able to freak out the team's decker in my campaign to where he had the character jack & run before actually meeting up with any of the really bad IC I had waiting. From this aspect I agree the TT sorucebook was successful. As the central setting for a campaign I feel it fell short as the government and authorities came off having to much of a jackboot mentality. A runner gets caught, and if not deposited on the north bank of the Columbia without her memories of the last couple three days, she is the prey for the next hunt. Not very conducive for PC growth. I ended my Portland campaign after about a month RL time (weekly sessions) when I came to the conclusion the runners really couldn't get away with a quarter of the things they did before the book came out. Back on the suspense angle, yes the fluff was scary (the TT government was an influence for my design of the Serbian dictatorship in my RiS campaign). In subsequent scenarios I ran, the PCs would have preferred breaking into a high security Ares compound for less pay than take a job involving the TT. |
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Dec 6 2007, 10:20 PM
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#83
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
but it's not implicit. it's hinted at, yes, but the question of whether those crazies actually invented new forms of magic through their own beliefs, or if they just happened on some hidden, previously-unknown aspect that was already there--that question has always been left open. |
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Dec 7 2007, 03:37 AM
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#84
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 609 Joined: 13-August 07 Member No.: 12,615 |
A relevant quote from Harlequin's Back. p. 19: "Yes, this does mean that a character's world view shapes how magic works for him in the Shadowrun universe."
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Dec 7 2007, 08:43 AM
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#85
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
blargh. one more reason to hate that stupid run. regardless, shaping the way magic works for a given caster isn't quite the same thing as allowing the caster to fabricate new abilities.
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Dec 7 2007, 11:57 AM
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#86
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
I was using "implicit" as "suggested or to be understood though not plainly expressed; implied: distinguished from EXPLICIT." So as not to turn it into a semantic argument about the other definitions of implicit (such as, "an absolute or unconditional understanding"); it is implied within the system that belief influences reality, although never explicitly stated. (Except apparently in Harlequin's Back, which I'll admit I've never read. I've never been particularly impressed with SR modules for a variety of reasons we don't have to get into here.) Belief just doesn't mean you want to believe it (or every sam would have unbeatable magic resistance), you have to believe it deep within your lizard brain. You have to believe it the way a schizophrenic believes in the voices he hears, you have to believe it in a way that is almost impossible for a rational person to achieve, because any doubt no matter how buried or subconscious will betray you. That's why only batshit crazy people get to break the rules. I'm not saying its one of my favorite aspects of the game, but its how I justify it. |
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Dec 7 2007, 02:29 PM
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#87
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 697 Joined: 18-August 07 Member No.: 12,735 |
Many of us did exactly that. Even more of us took the tact of ignoring Earth Dawn completely. *gah* it was a horrible 3 weeks in which we played ED. Afterwards we all did a collective WTF and went back to Shadowrun. Who cares about ED... that's what Viagra is for. |
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Dec 7 2007, 02:45 PM
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#88
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
This is actually what I've been holding onto for several years as an "exit plan" for IEs. If I absolutely have to pull a plug and prove to all the players that IEs don't exist without breaking everything else apart and making a mockery of the fact that they all did Harlequin and Harlequin's back, I figure I can just say it was all the schizophrenic delusions of one elf imprinting themselves on reality. Evidence of other IEs was just planted there by Harlequin's subconscious mind to support his mental illness. It's a long way to go, but I like it TONS better than having carryovers from ED. |
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Dec 7 2007, 02:58 PM
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#89
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
..and then you can mock these pesky players thinking they played Shadowrun by porting over the campaign to Mage: The Ascenion/The Awakening. :S
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Dec 7 2007, 04:57 PM
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#90
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
Hey, beats porting Earthdawn to Shadowrun rules. But I think a fair middle ground is to play sort of a cyberpunk type game with a gritty take on the effects of metahumans and magic on a dystopian future... Wait a minute, that's what Shadowrun is, unless you think Earthdawn is intrinsic to it. But nobody I know thinks that. Not one player in any of my groups, ever, or anyone that I've ever talked to about Shadowrun (outside DS, of course), has ever expressed any love for Earthdawn tie-ins. I've sadly only played ED once, and it looks like a neat system, and I'd like to play it again sometime; I think we all agree that's not really the point. The point is that the ED tie-ins have been botched at every step of the way, and make almost everyone want to puke. If wanting to puke was essential to play Shadowrun, my players would probably beg me to run Mage instead. But apparently, I've managed to run Shadowrun since 2nd ed. without saturating it with ED, and nobody's felt mocked yet. Go figure. |
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Dec 7 2007, 05:04 PM
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#91
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i don't think they've been botched every step of the way. for instance, i think the relationship between Earthdawn events and modern Tir (both of them) politics is kinda interesting. what i don't like is stuff like Harlequin's Back--when the fantasy milieu takes over and turns everything into an epic battle against blah blah blah.
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Dec 7 2007, 05:55 PM
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#92
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Sounds like a generic system to me. |
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Dec 7 2007, 06:17 PM
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#93
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
So Shadowrun started as a generic system?
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Dec 7 2007, 06:37 PM
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#94
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...that could qualify the Short One (#68) to have resistance :grinbig: |
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Dec 7 2007, 06:42 PM
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#95
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 28-March 05 From: NA/UCAS/IN/ Member No.: 7,246 |
Ummm, well, actually, that hadn't occurred to me. For some inexplicable reason, the Filtering/Spell Matrix idea hadn't crystallized right in my head until Street Magic. The wonders of figuring out how my brain works, or doesn't. |
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Dec 7 2007, 07:46 PM
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#96
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 609 Joined: 13-August 07 Member No.: 12,615 |
Do the Awakened simply discover aspects of magic which already exist, or do they create something new? Or is it a combination of both? It's a fine line. My interpretation has always been that mana/magic is different from, say, gravity or electricity. Both of those function with rules and parameters independent of human willpower and belief. Mana (and by extension, magic) is different; it's rules and effects can change, and sometimes be completely altered, by human will and emotion.
From my backseat view, it seems that the creators of Shadowrun were trying combine the high fantasy and cyberpunk genres. I think they did a decent job. But I can understand the view of many who think that in trying to do this, both genres were diluted. I've played both the high fantasy games (AD&D, etc.) as well as the pure cyberpunk ones (Cyberpunk, by RTG). Shadowrun strikes me as having acheived a healthy equilibrium between the two, and I enjoy it far more than the "pure" rpgs. |
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Dec 7 2007, 10:17 PM
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#97
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 249 Joined: 2-November 06 From: Bozeman, MT Member No.: 9,762 |
I think in game mechanics we can accurately measure the strength with which people hold on to their beliefs about how magic works (or doesn't) via there willpower score. Thus any sammy with a firm unshakable belief that magic doesn't exist, would have night unbeatable magic resistance with is willpower score in the low twenties. (my interpretation of lizard brain belief level). However most mortals are confronted quite often with the fact that magic doesn't work the way they think it does. This happens whenever anyone with a different paradigm uses magic (cause they do so in a different way; imagine a hermetic observing a shaman creating a formula: "But where are the equations??? you can't cast magic without equations.") I propose that characters with high willpower are better able to handle drain because they have a greater, more unshakable confidence that they are doing things "the right way." Thinking that you might be doing things the wrong way, causes one to have less precise control over the mana, hence greater drain. Just my ideas about how this works within the framework the game has already provided. |
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Dec 8 2007, 12:36 AM
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#98
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
the problem with that interpretation is that there are plenty of magical effects that are not resisted with Will.
yes, that's what i'm arguing with--i don't believe that magic in SR is necessarily based on belief. belief can shape how a given mage interacts with magic, yes, but that doesn't necessarily mean that things will come true if you believe them hard enough. that might be true, but it also might not be. the question of whether or not belief creates magic, or just shapes it, is one that is left open. the example that comes to mind is the Dragon totem, as presented in Dot6W (or maybe it was YotC). the head of that Dunkelzahn cult went from not being a magician to being a shaman of the Dragon totem--a totem nobody'd seen before. it's implied that he might have created the Dragon totem simply by believing in it hard enough--but it's also suggested that maybe the Dragon totem existed all along, and he just discovered it. basically, you're saying that it's understood--but unsaid--that magic is based on belief, in SR. i disagree; i think the game presents that as one possibility, but that it's only a possibility. i don't think there's any behind-the-scenes silent understanding that this is how magic works. |
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Dec 8 2007, 07:19 AM
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#99
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
The real problems with that belief-theory start when you consider how it explains a trapped totem escaping and spontaneous magic/spirit manifestations - it completly waters down to some 'collective will' thing that sounds reasonable, yet explains nothing.
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Dec 8 2007, 07:52 AM
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#100
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 861 Joined: 27-November 07 Member No.: 14,397 |
Earthdawn?
My first reaction to be honest. I enjoy shadowrun but am seriously lacking in the 'history of the shadowrun world' knowladge skill. Since this is the case, it can hardly be said that earthdawn is what makes shadowrun shadowrun. I'm guessing it is something with magic coming in cycles and such and thus we are in the 'sixth world' but I know nothing of the elf proficy thing, and I've got to agree with some of the others that I read, the proficy and the exact fact of which 'age of magic' we are in what -exact- way magic came into the world seems fairly errelevent to the average runner. Could have as easily been that magic just poped up one day, or was sealed by some ancient ritual that was broken by mining or anything else really. That simple fact wouldn't make huge changes to what makes shadowrun what it is. Sure, another game can be very similar, cyberpunk with corps and working on the wrong side of the law etc, but it isn't shadowrun, but I don't think Earthdawn is that defining difference. |
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