 Is it just me, or is stunball off the charts? |
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 Dec 20 2007, 02:02 PM
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#101
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Immoral Elf  Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486  |
Direct area effect Combat spells only affect targets that the caster can actually see in the targeted area.
Indirect area effect Combat spells affect everyone in the targeted area. |
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Dec 20 2007, 03:51 PM
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#102
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Unless you miss the target with indirect, then it just mysteriously seems to "go away" per the rules. :(
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Dec 20 2007, 04:20 PM
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#103
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 128 Joined: 28-January 05 Member No.: 7,029 |
Fortune, where's that explained? I can't find a diference for indirect and direct spells under the AoE rules? :/ |
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Dec 20 2007, 04:30 PM
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#104
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
@GentlemanLoser
Read the section under COMBAT SPELLS (p. 195) before the actual spell descriptions. That details the differences between direct and indirect ones. |
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Dec 20 2007, 04:31 PM
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#105
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 914 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Louisville, KY (Well, Memphis, IN technically but you won't know where that is.) Member No.: 7,626 |
Y'know, in SR4 wards are cheap, essentially being a ritual spellcasting that lasts weeks. They also affect VOLUMES rather than surfaces. A mid-level wagemage with a Magic of 4 can create a Force 4 ward that lasts a month and encloses 200m^3 volume per casting (8mx8mx3m) in an afternoon (4hours).
So it's perfectly reasonable to believe that there could be several warded regions in key locations (R&D, payroll, server rooms, security stations, tactical locations, etc). That instantly gives the sec team an extra +4 dice to resist spells as well as extending the time it takes spirits to get to them. Plus any time something begins beating on the ward the mage knows and can sound the alarm. |
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Dec 20 2007, 04:42 PM
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#106
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
From the SR4 Errata v. 1.5 [actually added in version 4] ...
The applicable entry from page 196 ...
Hope that helps. |
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Dec 20 2007, 06:08 PM
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#107
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 941 Joined: 25-January 07 Member No.: 10,765 |
I've highlighted the problem areas here: First off: Making it less easy to drop those AoE spells without hitting teammates is well within the rules, the spirit of the rules, and massively effective in most Shadowrun evironments, as has been pointed out repeatedly in this thread. WHy you keep ignoring that I have no idea, but again: Standing behind the mage does NOT mean the team is out of LOS. That is a call YOU chose to make, and now you complain that stunballs that affect the entire officebuilding are too powerful? Dude: Start forcing that LOS thing... it WILL have an effect. Second: I pointed this out before, if the team is comfortable in combat, you are not playing the enemy hard enough. Player's ALWAYS get the drop on the guards? Sure, maybe the first batch they hit. Then the High THreat Response Teams start HUNTING them. Maybe you should pull a reverse run, where the Runners are the targets, not the paid mercs, and the other guys get the drop on them. Whatever you do, stop giving the players the exact same situations to deal with time and again. Thirdly: And here is, I suspect, the real problem, a failure of imagination. Force 12 Stunballs breaking your balls? Don't just pull out a BIGGER stunball. that's simple escalation, and it sucks. First: What's to stop your players from workign for that force 16! stunball eventually? Then you shoot for the force 17, and eventually people start cheating and getting stupider, the game breaks down. It is the simplest and least effective countermeasure known to man. Counter it creatively. Use the massive wall of drones, too many to hack. Use technology to counteract stun damage. Use wards. Think of the game like Judo, you don't use force to oppose force, you redirect the force where you want it to go. |
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Dec 20 2007, 06:50 PM
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#108
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...excellent comment and analogy. Yeah I got wrapped up in that sort of thing in one campaign because of an abusive and disruptive player (where I finally dropped a Prime NPC on the team who had a Negotiation pool = nearly one 36 ct brick of dice, without using edge). While it defused the situation for the moment it didn't solve the underlying issue. However, with some players even doing the creative approach doesn't always work as they cry foul on you the GM for "setting them up". That is when you have to step OoC to deal with the matter. |
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Dec 20 2007, 08:06 PM
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#109
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 617 Joined: 28-May 03 From: Orlando Member No.: 4,644 |
Hammer them down with 3-5 cyborgs. They are virtually unhackable, cannot be targeted by Mana spells, and have an OR of 4 +. Nasty nasty things.
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Dec 20 2007, 08:27 PM
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#110
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
In case anyone is interested, this thread is where people hammered into me that AoE spells effect targets behind you even if you aren't looking that way. At the time I started out with the theory that your spell only worked on the guys you were looking at, but that opinion was universally shot down.
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Dec 20 2007, 09:14 PM
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#111
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 128 Joined: 28-January 05 Member No.: 7,029 |
Thanks fortune! :D
Edit for clarity. So you could hit a geezer round a corner in a corridor with an Indirect Sepll aimed at a location. But you culdn't do the same with a Direct spell. Makes sense if you look at thier names. ;) Now all SR has to do is sort out the IWIN/TEHSUX binary existance Direct spells have. ;) |
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Dec 21 2007, 04:36 AM
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#112
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
It's been mentioned already but largely ignored, why in the hell doesn't the lights shut off, installed flashpacks trip, thermo smoke rise from the vents, all trigger the moment security realizes that there is a something in the building that is knocking out sec-guards right and left? It is easy for a corp that controls the enviroment in a building to make it rather hostile to invaders, Mages included.
But then again, personally I refuse to cater to one-trick-ponies, the security consultant who designed the setup doesn't care if some Runner is going to be completely gimped because he or she didn't branch out so neither do I. (Also remember that even if you assume that the corps actually care about whether or not a guard is dead or alive they would be really fragging stupid not to use the big glowing Neon Fingerprint a ( Force 12 ) spell leaves behind to their own advantage.) Always remember that a good Mage can kill you with her mind, but a GREAT Mage has the wisdom to use her trusty predator instead. |
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Dec 21 2007, 02:03 PM
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#113
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Because a Great mage is smart enough to stun you with his mind and remove his astral signature. A Predator leaves a bullet. A stunned security guard means he's been sleeping on the job. |
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Dec 21 2007, 08:04 PM
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#114
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
First off, hello again Dumpshock. It's been a while and I've calmed down now. Came back to have a mooch through the forums and simply couldn't contain myself after reading through this thread. Yes – I've lapsed. :-/ There are a number of issues here as I see it. The basic problem as stated by the GM is that the mage player has found the same optimum strategy for himself in a wide range of situations, resulting in a repetitious game. There are a few assumptions in there as well as possible solutions. The first is that a mage with Magic 6 is very powerful. Using the 3rd to 4th conversion guidelines, a mage with Magic 6 is equivalent to one with Magic 9 in the old system! A mage with Magic 6 should be able to take down a large number of mundane grunts on an equal playing field. That's not even mentioning the Spellcasting at rating 6 which is that of a master. I'm stating this only because some people consider Magic 6 to be normal and then decide that magic itself is over-powered. I don't think that this is the case in Ddays' game, but it's a valid observation that when you get to this level of power, it becomes much tougher to stop players stomping all over the opposition. If the power level were lower, then Stunball would not be the default option every time. In fact, it would be balanced quite well with its drain as most opposition would remain standing and Stun is less harmful than Physical. The player would certainly use a wider variety of tactics in that case. The problem is not Stunball alone, but Stunball taken to such a level of power that its weak areas become irrelevant. Looking at the posted stats on this character, I see a well conditioned scarecrow (Bod 3, Str 1) who appears to have done little with their life other than practice throwing spells and has the reflexes of a fighter pilot. It's not all together surprising there are repetition problems with such an obviously min-maxed character. Even the selection of the tradition seems min-maxed toward combat spelling as it's one of only four (out of twenty) that has the initiative enhancing Intuition as a drain stat. I think the problems began here, not with the Stunball spell. That said, I'm going to assume henceforth that re-calibrating the party power-level is a closed option as this is often resented by players and look at other ideas. The second assumption that is made in the initial problem is that it is a bad thing for the mage to use Stunball all the time. It is, but note that a Samurai may always use the same gun but we don't try to force the Samurai to use a different gun every fight. Okay, I do try to bring variety here too, with confrontations at different ranges, in areas where larger or smaller guns can be smuggled, if you really want to know... but most people worry far less about the repetitiveness of the samurai. Why is this? That's another question but maybe just as the Samurai finds interest in doing things other than rolling to hit somebody, the mage can find interest in doing things other than rolling to stun things. It's not answering Ddays' question, but it is addressing it – spice the game up with more non-combat tasks. That should be even easier to do with a magician than it is with a mundane. The third thing, and this is relevant, I think, is the issue of overcasting all the time. Casting a spell at Force 12 is not even possible for most magicians in the world. And that's a drain value of 7! Again for emphasis – 7! Physical! How is that a routine action for the PC? With ten dice to resist drain (which is good), the PC will average 3 or 4 boxes of physical damage each time he casts like this. And being an average, there are times when the mage suffers worse. Compared to the samurai who can happily throw grenades or spray bullets all day long, this is pretty significant.
If you take 3 damage two or three times in a session, the character is on 6 to 9 boxes of damage. That in itself is a big risk. The fact that the player regards this as not a problem suggests to me a few things. The first is that the player may be trusting you not to take the same shots at his character when he's badly wounded as he is when he's in perfect condition. It's good to show some leniency as a GM. It's bad if the player alters their character's behaviour to something unrealistic in expectation of it however. The next thing that it suggests to me is that players have a too much certainty in the progression of the adventure. I.e. they think to themselves something like: “First combat, second combat, climactic combat, nuyen.� The player may feel comfortable in damaging himself again and again knowing that its all just ticks on paper and full healing time will be allowed at the end of the “adventure.� I don't really have a typical game, but one thing that tends to be the case is that opposition and length of the scenario is variable according to the PCs actions and also factors they aren't aware of. They certainly don't find it comfortable to be severely injured at the end of a run (they don't even like little injuries). What if the drop-off is a double cross? What if their getaway goes wrong and they end up in a running shoot out with Lonestar? What if the GM springs the next adventure on them when they haven't had time to heal up (oh, yes – I do this)? There's also a parallel with Edge usage as you mention an “edged drain roll.� I notice that the character sheet that you posted later on lists an Edge of 3 but you mention it is frequently spent on drain rolls for overcast Stunballs. I remember a long conversation we had on Dumpshock a while ago where someone kept insisting that Possession was overpowered. The GM's mage player was accustomed to “whipping up a Force 7� as needed and it turned out that the GM was refreshing the Edge pool multiple times a session. Consequently his game was turning into a manga. Edge is a way for GMs to adjust the Indiana Jones level of their game and it's quite important to tone. If the player feels comfortable burning lots of edge on routine attacks, it might be something to look at. Again, my players use their edge for special occasions and I like it like that. Now I can already hear Ddays' fingers on the keyboard, I think, so I'll get on with practical examples and ideas of how to make Stunball the non-optimal strategy. The first thing has been said by lots of people, but I have to say it again anyway. That is the degree of preparation the PCs seem to have before each combat, spacing themselves out, etc. I don't know how this is happening, but there have already been lots of good ideas posted on how to give the opposition some smarts and the definite first thing to try is some of these. The next thing is confined spaces. It doesn't matter if you have the time to spread out and plan if you don't have the space. Most office buildings should provide the option to bring about this restriction. At the very least, site security should have the ability to co-ordinate an attack from multiple directions. But you can also go for more unusual environments. Have you ever:
These scenarios demand other tactics than an overcast Stunball. For example, the confined spaces in the ant hive made indirect spells more useful. You could hurt people you couldn't see, In the shopping centre show down, Control Thoughts and Magic Fingers become the order of the day. As well as varying the deployment and terrain, you can interfere with the roles people play. Fine – the hacker deals with the drones. But that's so easy to nix its almost insulting to suggest ways. What if the hacker, jacked into the corp's security network, reports that a Steel Lynx is on its way around the corner. Calmly the character hacks into the Steel Lynx's node, only to find that an enemy hacker is residing in that node. Now the character is engaged in desparate cyber-combat to stop the enemy from raising the alarm and putting the entire system on alert, but that leaves the rest of the characters (including the mage) to deal with the oncoming drone(s). Likewise, you can split the party. Yes – everyone who has ever DM'd a game of D&D has a conditioned dread of this, but in Shadowrun where the players can legitimately communicate and swap plans and maps, it's not an issue. So make a requirement for them to perform multiple things at once – the Samurai has to cut the power in the basement at the same time that the rigger flys the captive out of the compound, etc. Don't force the issue, but let the players work out that its the best way to pull off their mission. Now the mage has to deal with the drones, corp mage, Hell Hound, whatever, all by herself. In short, if your players are comfortably managing their opposition then you have failed to induce sufficient panic. Jumble things up and apply more severe pressure. You can only use your hammer all the time if your friend with the screwdriver is available to help you out. Finally, returning to the issue of predictability that I raised earlier, bear in mind that the approach your magician is using is one with limited ammunition. Three or four points of damage every spell? The mage is taking a minor gunshot wound each time. Draw battles and missions out. The reason you think the mage is overshadowing the mundanes, samurai, et al, is because one of the balances on the power of magic is the inability to keep it up or be consistent. In running games that encourage the player to calmly take a few “gunshot wound� level drains as a matter of course, you are removing this balance. These are some ideas on how to solve your problem. You are looking for some universal fix and even suggesting that the magic system itself is broken. But in fact, there is no universal fix, only a constant attention to variety. You have a PC that is pretty optimised and it's no surprise that they have arrived at what they feel is an optimal tactic. Even though you see Stunball as the inevitable Go To tactic, there are other Go To tactics the player could have come up with and which we'd be having the same conversation about. Truthfully, with the power level of the character, there are any number of ways that he can hopelessly outclass a bunch of mundane security guards. It's just going to happen. Maybe its time for your group to progress to weirder and more interesting missions. Immerse them in the world of crime, or a campaign arc against a secretive ant hive. Throw in an elf in face paint if you want. ;) But accept that this character is far too optimised to be challenged by a straight shoot-out with mooks. It's not as if a samurai couldn't have the same effect with grenades and less drain. If all else fails, ask the player why their Buddhist character is marauding through secure compounds in the pursuit of money, blasting honest working security guards with potentially lethal psychic blasts. ;) :eek: I hope this helps, -K. |
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Dec 21 2007, 08:37 PM
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#115
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Yay knasser is back! :D Many welcomes!
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Dec 21 2007, 09:27 PM
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#116
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...nice ending statement... :grinbig:
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Dec 21 2007, 10:01 PM
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#117
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
Welcome back, knasser! We've missed you!
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Dec 21 2007, 10:34 PM
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#118
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Aye welcome back knasser, we may seldom agree but your posts are always thought provoking.
----- toturi, call me crazy, but I'm sure that the differences between going from being awake and fairly alert to K/O in an instant and falling asleep naturally would be easily detected by a biomoniter not to mention security footage so no, I don't see that combo as being anymore stealthy then the mundane options either. |
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Dec 22 2007, 12:25 AM
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#119
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
*hugs knasser* Glad to see you back, man. You've been missed. Happy .... whatever the hell holiday you celebrate that is closest to now. I don't know where you live so have no general demographics to guess at.
Chris EDIT: Also, now that I've read it wanted to say I agree with your points. Many of the same ones I was trying to make except you phrased it better. Also, that was a very... verbose and amusing reintroduction to the boards. |
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Dec 22 2007, 12:45 AM
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#120
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
No, but it is not anymore unstealthy. And it requires you putting biomonitors on your guards and the data transmission of which is vulnerable to hackers. |
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Dec 22 2007, 01:02 AM
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#121
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 114 Joined: 2-July 07 Member No.: 12,127 |
Hey Knasser, a lot of good points.
As for the 2 or 3 physical damage, yeah, it's a bit of damage, but considering that a shot from a single mook can be just as deadly, so that makes it easier to justify the cost somewhat. And I dislike the insinuation that I simply let them slide by thinking they succeeded, I do hit them below the belt, its just that the mage is more scrambling to stay alive than doing the stupidly heroic. I feel like I have to defend myself as a competent GM at this point, since a lot of why I feel magic is overpowered is instead being converted to why I lack creativity as a GM. Yes, I can indeed challenge my players. Ex: My team is in a garage specializing in sprucing up rigger vehicles. Problem: deranged technomancer with a host of machine sprites. This fight, my mage ended on the defensive, levitating the party to prevent them getting run over, sammie was blowing up the vehicles with the big guns, the two hacking capable characters trying to end the technomancer's control. This is what I consider a successful combat, all the characters are there contributing. Ok, now for my point about stunball. Suppose I introduce an enemy mage. This said mage is created using the extra bad template, so he spends some additional bp in initiating and upping his magic. How the hell do I work in the fact that he can cast super stunballs against the PCs without introducing imbalance in combat? The moment I give him enough spellcasting die to have a good chance of overcoming my PC's counterspelling, boom, half the team is pretty much screwed. And no, not using the overcasted stunball is a horrible tactical decision, considering his said enemies are known for being able to fire 2 grenades in a single initiative pass. The 2 or 3 points of drain are no where close to the hurt any of the PCs can be putting on him if they stay conscious. The whole situation just gets even worse if he uses spirits as distractions before combat. Now my pcs have to split up or get ganked by superfoe, which for most of you GMs seems like a good thing. What if I want a mage combat that doesn't put my team in such dire straits? I don't give him stunball. The other combat oriented spells may kill the PCs, but the drain might be more damage than the NPC would be willing to risk and if the spell does get counterspelled, he may be too hurt to retreat and escape against any drones set on overwatch mode or backup. Not to mention the armor saves against damage the PCs get to make against elemental damage spells. Wouldn't that make it seem that there are some balance issues there? Something similar to the save for half damage seen in DnD would make for a great way to make the high force stunball less binary in nature. |
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Dec 22 2007, 01:19 AM
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#122
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Then implement one and be done with it. Just know that it is a house rule, and one that many people feel is not warranted. |
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Dec 22 2007, 01:46 AM
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#123
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
One thing I would like to point out is that - in my world anyway and especially non-hermetic mages, mages don't get to see a catalog with ok... F/2+4 so a major gunshot wound... huh well I mean stunball has less drain and I can just cast it again or kill then when they are unconscious so... it's a better spell to pick at this point.
In my world you aren't going to get the ins and outs of a spell until you really get involved with it unless you are really smart and have a high arcana skill. Keep in mind if they are buying formula online or in a store... selection for combat spells should be limited and they are going to make them sound like the SHIT no matter what spell it is because they WANT you to buy it. Also, since the bad guys can't line the stats up like we can, they shouldn't be able to be like "Hmm, I'll take less drain if I develop this stun spell.... blah blah blah" to develop their own spells unless they have just insane amounts of magical theory, arcana, logic etc. It seems obvious to US that every mage worth his salt should have stun ball, but just because we can look at it and say that doesn't mean THEY can have the same thought process without alot of appropriate background. Also, just make the dice pool big enough that that mage is using some of his vaunted edged rolls for something besides CASTING spells. My players tend to save edge for resist rolls anyway because magic and rockets/grenades are nasty. As has been said before Shadowrun is often a game of big hammers and glass figurines. Dodging or soaking the long burst from the ares alpha that lucked out and got 4 or 5 net hits, or resisting that influence or control thoughts to activate two or four of your grenades, etc is often much more important than casting or soaking a spell that well. I rarely have players that can reserve their edge for overcasting spells hardcore and then using edge to soak the resultant drain, they usually have to keep the spell for a little lower or just take a larger portion of the relevant drain. Chris |
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Dec 22 2007, 01:52 AM
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#124
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 114 Joined: 2-July 07 Member No.: 12,127 |
Well, the point was to gather opinions on the subject. And I can see there are ways to mitigate the fact that magic is powerful. And considering that I play only one session of SR a week, I would prefer to have it well thought out before changing the play experience. |
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Dec 22 2007, 02:01 AM
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#125
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
The gist of what I just said was more that while stunball makes more sense for a Buddhist than say.... fireball or one of the other more lethal spells, such is often not the case for the opposition. I cannot expect that most Toxics, Blood Mages, Chaos Mages, or basically most mages that aren't Christian, Zoroastrian, Qabbalistic, Buddhist, etc. would find that stunball is the best fit for them. Especially sec mages, because if it take a lot of time and money and life force to learn a spell then if they get a Direct Damage spell at all I would imagine it would be Powerball because that can at least get drones and such as well. Of course there are other arguments against it, but anyway, I am digressing again.
My point is that with the exception of some logic tradition mages that are cold bastards and can make a decision involving changing/parting with/binding part of their life experience/soul/whatever the hell karma is on a cold blooded consideration of his knowledge of potential spell effectiveness, the difficulty of disrupting body patterns, and the burnout such effort would leave on his body.... well most mages would choose what fits their personality, and that is often not stunball. Chris |
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