So you roll sorcery + magic to deal force damage, ok.
But the drain is a mere F/2 + 1. A combat mage can pretty much end fights immediately with a force 12 stunball everytime. The drain is only that of a force 4 fireball. That's insane. Especially potent since it's no more difficult to land the force 12 stunball than a force 6 stunball, there's no reason to not go for the quick kill everytime.
Ok, sure, I can have every single fight draft a small squad of drones to defend against the stunballer, but where does that leave gangers? Instantly dead the moment they face a magic 6 caster? I basically can't have a magic using big bad cause the moment they show up, the PCs are either screwed because counterspelling failed once or they win without problems.
Maybe magic itself is broken, but I'm finding it harder and harder to keep the other characters into the game. Everytime is so fragmented, I can challenge the players individually, but as a group it seems they take turns rolling. Basically, a session goes: Matrix dude does his stuff, rolls independently of everybody else. Combat starts, mage goes off, wins. Combat starts, mage goes off, wins. Combat starts, mage sits out, Cybersammie wins. Matrix dude does his stuff, everybody else goes to grab a snack and waits for the result.
Is there no way to get all the characters fighting on the same front at the same time?
Full Version: Is it just me, or is stunball off the charts?
first:magic is broken, allways has been . .
second:force 12 means body damage from drain, and how do you get to four? drain would be 7 because 12/2=6+1=7 if i ain't missing anything . .
third:damage compensator or pain editor or what's it called let's anybody and their cat ignore stun damage . . have a mage hit someone with a Force 12 Stun-Ball, and then watch them go white as their character sheet when the target does not even blink . .
second:force 12 means body damage from drain, and how do you get to four? drain would be 7 because 12/2=6+1=7 if i ain't missing anything . .
third:damage compensator or pain editor or what's it called let's anybody and their cat ignore stun damage . . have a mage hit someone with a Force 12 Stun-Ball, and then watch them go white as their character sheet when the target does not even blink . .
A fireball uses the drain of force/2 + 5, so a force 4 fireball also has a drain of 7.
And really, a drain of 7 is like 3 damage with an edged resist roll. So my mage can get 2 or 3 of these off each session without significant risk.
Magic being all or nothing is a big part of the problem. If you go all in, you can pretty much take it first round. I would prefer a system where magic hits and then gets damage soaked like guns, since it would favor longer fights.
And really, a drain of 7 is like 3 damage with an edged resist roll. So my mage can get 2 or 3 of these off each session without significant risk.
Magic being all or nothing is a big part of the problem. If you go all in, you can pretty much take it first round. I would prefer a system where magic hits and then gets damage soaked like guns, since it would favor longer fights.
Since when do guns favour long fights? Usually with guns in real life it is whoever gets hit first loses, end of story. You may have some cercumstances where gun fights last longer, but this usually involves people in full combat armor baracaded in a fortified building with thousands of rounds of ammo or some such.
Stunball is indeed quite badass. My Mage routinely takes out large numbers of enemies with high-force Stunballs. And given that the target needs to be awakened to get more than Willpower (3 to 6 dice) to resist something like 15S, it's just absurd.
My GM does several things to mitigate. For one, he usually spaces out opponents by quite a lot, so that I can only target one at a time.
He also has most opponents living by the GTMF (Geek Tha Mage First) doctrine, so if I poke my head out too far or leave myself too open I tend to take a bunch of physical, which makes the aforementioned overcast Stunball much less attractive. Depending on how big of a Drain dice pool the Mage has, some damage can really make casting risky.
Use of "Defense Mages" on the opposing side. In our game, most corporate security teams have at least one mage with counterspell 6, apparently.
Drones and the like are immune to stunball.
And finally, he expects small and/or undertrained opposing teams to be taken out quickly, and their physical strength rarely represents the main threat to completing the job. I.e., if a small sec team gets off a single communication, LoneStar will be on the scene in a few combat turns. Or if there is a single guard, he is monitored via the matrix by Agents, and if he is harmed they raise an alarm. That kind of thing.
But magic is overpowered during combat, pure and simple. If your Mage starts summoning Spirits of Man that can also cast Stunball, it gets ever more unbalanced. But that's why taking out the security team should only be one small part of the run.
My GM does several things to mitigate. For one, he usually spaces out opponents by quite a lot, so that I can only target one at a time.
He also has most opponents living by the GTMF (Geek Tha Mage First) doctrine, so if I poke my head out too far or leave myself too open I tend to take a bunch of physical, which makes the aforementioned overcast Stunball much less attractive. Depending on how big of a Drain dice pool the Mage has, some damage can really make casting risky.
Use of "Defense Mages" on the opposing side. In our game, most corporate security teams have at least one mage with counterspell 6, apparently.
Drones and the like are immune to stunball.
And finally, he expects small and/or undertrained opposing teams to be taken out quickly, and their physical strength rarely represents the main threat to completing the job. I.e., if a small sec team gets off a single communication, LoneStar will be on the scene in a few combat turns. Or if there is a single guard, he is monitored via the matrix by Agents, and if he is harmed they raise an alarm. That kind of thing.
But magic is overpowered during combat, pure and simple. If your Mage starts summoning Spirits of Man that can also cast Stunball, it gets ever more unbalanced. But that's why taking out the security team should only be one small part of the run.
A 12 meter radius circle is pretty damn hard to stay out of I would say, especially if your mage has more than one initiative pass and can cast 2.
Also, the geek the mage problem just makes it even more advantageous for the mage to alpha, since if he doesn't, then he's pretty much guaranteed to be taken out of the fight first. I think it's more a cause of the problem than a solution.
And I understand the value of counterspelling, but I dislike the fact that it's all or nothing all the time. I already use 6 rating counterspeller and wards and stuff to protect my dorks, but it hoses the mage just as much when he's using his regular force spells as it does the alpha strike.
I think I'm going to try raising the drain of the stunball and manaball to a f/2 + 3 and seeing if it fixes things.
Also, the geek the mage problem just makes it even more advantageous for the mage to alpha, since if he doesn't, then he's pretty much guaranteed to be taken out of the fight first. I think it's more a cause of the problem than a solution.
And I understand the value of counterspelling, but I dislike the fact that it's all or nothing all the time. I already use 6 rating counterspeller and wards and stuff to protect my dorks, but it hoses the mage just as much when he's using his regular force spells as it does the alpha strike.
I think I'm going to try raising the drain of the stunball and manaball to a f/2 + 3 and seeing if it fixes things.
...still, even if not overcasting, a stunball is pretty damned efficient. Take a mage with a 6 MA and 6 spellcasting casting a force 6 stunball OK that is 12 dice without adding any more for foci or Mentor Spirit modifiers. On an "average roll (4 hits), that means the target takes 9 boxes of stun damage. An average mundane with 3 Willpower gets 1 hit & takes 8 boxes. Should the mage get max hits allowable (6) that is 11 boxes (1 into physical overflow). A good chance the mundanes in the effect area of the spell are down for the count & out of the rest of the combat.
Meanwhile the mage only has to shake down 4 boxes with a pool at least as good as his casting pool and if the spell is on a fetish (and/or has totem modifiers) this adds to the drain dice. More than likely the mage will not even be winded.
Also, stun cannot be healed with either spells or First Aid. Furthermore, there's nothing stopping a sammy from going around and executing all the unconscious characters afterwards, I've seen it done a number of times.
Meanwhile the mage only has to shake down 4 boxes with a pool at least as good as his casting pool and if the spell is on a fetish (and/or has totem modifiers) this adds to the drain dice. More than likely the mage will not even be winded.
Also, stun cannot be healed with either spells or First Aid. Furthermore, there's nothing stopping a sammy from going around and executing all the unconscious characters afterwards, I've seen it done a number of times.
| QUOTE (Ddays) |
| A 12 meter radius circle is pretty damn hard to stay out of I would say, especially if your mage has more than one initiative pass and can cast 2. |
Yeah, when I say "spaced out" I mean opposite sides of the building, which just isn't an option all the time. His NPCs also seem to know that they are about to get a Stunball in the face, and typically move apart right away. But the average metahuman is only moving a few meters in those first few intiative passes.
| QUOTE (Ddays) |
| Also, the geek the mage problem just makes it even more advantageous for the mage to alpha, since if he doesn't, then he's pretty much guaranteed to be taken out of the fight first. I think it's more a cause of the problem than a solution. And I understand the value of counterspelling, but I dislike the fact that it's all or nothing all the time. I already use 6 rating counterspeller and wards and stuff to protect my dorks, but it hoses the mage just as much when he's using his regular force spells as it does the alpha strike. |
The biggest problem (IMHO) in the SR4 rules is the fact that one needs a Mage to be protected from a Mage in combat. The way my GM balances this is to make combat a relatively unimportant part of the run. While there are always jerks to frag, stealth or the ability to find what you're looking for is usually more important to getting paid. So basically he adds consequences to not pulling the run off perfectly, consequences that can't be solved via Stunball. Mr. J usually has demands like no tracks be left or no lingering magical auras. And the job usually has a stealth component, like the target will zip away on an underground subway if the alarm is set off, or the data is erased, or whatever.
I wouldn't try to nerf stunball itself, I would try to take away the Mage's combat advantages.
You can't stunball anyone you can't see, but airburst grenades don't have that problem...
The Infiltration skill is the best protection from mages. If they can't see you then they can't hurt you, except with indirect spells.
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) |
| Also, stun cannot be healed with either spells or First Aid. |
Stun damage can indeed be healed by First Aid.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| The Infiltration skill is the best protection from mages. If they can't see you then they can't hurt you, except with indirect spells. |
Can't they just go astral and see your aura standing out like a sore thumb? Assuming the setting was an office complex or something.
And I hate restricting characters by saying "No whatever you're good at." I tried it once with an assassination attempt, and I basically said to my demolition specialist that he can't use explosives because they would be detected and would be a "violent end" which violates the terms of the contract. Basically ruled out car accident, building structural collapse, anything he could try. The team pulled through, but that player was kinda bored (And not because he didn't contribute anything, I tried to let him as the big burly troll beat on a few people and stuff), but because he didn't get to do what he wanted to do.
And infiltration is cool and all, but from a gameplay perspective, that usually means that the urban ninja goes in to grab the data and leaves the rest of the team behind in support roles. Is there anyway I can motivate him to bring the rest of the team, especially if they can't sneak around well for anything?
| QUOTE (Ddays) |
| Can't they just go astral and see your aura standing out like a sore thumb? Assuming the setting was an office complex or something. |
The Infiltration Skill applies to the Astral as well as the Physical. Nothing stopping you from hiding your aura among those of other living objects, or slipping behind almost anything, because pretty much everything has an Astral Shadow.
| QUOTE (Ddays) |
| And infiltration is cool and all, but from a gameplay perspective, that usually means that the urban ninja goes in to grab the data and leaves the rest of the team behind in support roles. Is there anyway I can motivate him to bring the rest of the team, especially if they can't sneak around well for anything? |
Try to impress on the rest of the Players the importance of Stealth in your games.
the same reason ANYone is bringing along the combat monsters . .
'cause you can and probably WILL fuck up and they will have to take care of business because your stealthed ass won't survive a lucky shot . .
'cause you can and probably WILL fuck up and they will have to take care of business because your stealthed ass won't survive a lucky shot . .
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
Try to impress on the rest of the Players the importance of Stealth in your games. |
I don't want my players to play my way. I just want them to play together as a team.
The group as a whole is fine, it's just that it's hard to have everybody doing the same thing at the same time. And stunballing guards/turning off security, then having the ninja sneak in would be completely against what I'm working for.
I'm looking for the classic, protect hacking team mate from alerted guards style run since at least the entire team is at the same place and each member's success has a direct effect on the survival of the whole rather than the "I did my job, now you do your's" run.
| QUOTE |
| I'm looking for the classic, protect hacking team mate from alerted guards style run |
not much of a difference from the urban nincompoop sneaking in and getting the plot-device is it? O.o
Pick any game system you like - wizworms are either useless or death on two legs. There isn't really any middle of the road.
As a compromise, bound spirits thrown against incoming spells might buy your NPCs a few extra rounds, but from a "realistic" point of view, the cost-benefit analysis just isn't there.
Wizworms are so rare, the average sec guard will never have any need for the amazingly expensive "magic armor". By comparison, kevlar is almost cheaper than cotton and protects against far more common threats.
-Siege
Edit: You could attempt to re-conceptualize the entire magical system, but runs into a homebrew set of rules and game world, which may not sit well with your players.
As a compromise, bound spirits thrown against incoming spells might buy your NPCs a few extra rounds, but from a "realistic" point of view, the cost-benefit analysis just isn't there.
Wizworms are so rare, the average sec guard will never have any need for the amazingly expensive "magic armor". By comparison, kevlar is almost cheaper than cotton and protects against far more common threats.
-Siege
Edit: You could attempt to re-conceptualize the entire magical system, but runs into a homebrew set of rules and game world, which may not sit well with your players.
| QUOTE (Siege) |
| Pick any game system you like - wizworms are either useless or death on two legs. There isn't really any middle of the road. As a compromise, bound spirits thrown against incoming spells might buy your NPCs a few extra rounds, but from a "realistic" point of view, the cost-benefit analysis just isn't there. Wizworms are so rare, the average sec guard will never have any need for the amazingly expensive "magic armor". By comparison, kevlar is almost cheaper than cotton and protects against far more common threats. -Siege Edit: You could attempt to re-conceptualize the entire magical system, but runs into a homebrew set of rules and game world, which may not sit well with your players. |
Yeah, guess that's true.
Explains why my favorite part of the game are the social situations where all the characters be quirky and interact.
And my problem with sneak and steal is that my other dudes do their job and that's it for their part in the session.
It goes:
A. Matrix hijinks
B. Related security bust ups
C. Sneaking in
Instead of it being spread out evenly across the session. Which wouldn't be a problem if the entire team was doing the sneaking, but I don't have a gang of Tir Elf Ninjas, so I can't really make any logical explanation on why the burly troll is trying to tip toe his way past security.
The problem I've noticed is that the combat monsters tend to dominate combat so fast that the other characters don't get to do squat. And if you provide enough of a challenge for the combat monster, the non-combat monsters don't have much chance of contributing, as they're either not going to hit, or die extremely fast if the challenge focuses on them.
The most balanced encounters seem to require a lot of mooks to give the average runners something to shoot at, and a couple cyberzombies for the Troll/Ork weapons specialist to consume more than 2 of his IPs. But large combats just aren't that believable to have happen very often.
The most balanced encounters seem to require a lot of mooks to give the average runners something to shoot at, and a couple cyberzombies for the Troll/Ork weapons specialist to consume more than 2 of his IPs. But large combats just aren't that believable to have happen very often.
i kinda allways thought it to be silly . . i'm playing the 3m tall, 300 kilo mountain of muscles carrying the LMG . . sneaking with maybe 8 successes (good roll there) and NOBODY noticing? naah . . . maybe the rules say otherwise, but untill i can get that image into my mind without wanting to paint my troll neon green and having him dance and sing through the check-point after such a roll, i'll not be seen spending too much points for that *g*
That's why the combat monsters are there in the first place O.o
because if the sneaky ones fuck it up someone HAS to be able to save their pathetic asses in a whole building full of potential enemies . .
That's why the combat monsters are there in the first place O.o
because if the sneaky ones fuck it up someone HAS to be able to save their pathetic asses in a whole building full of potential enemies . .
| QUOTE (augurer) |
| The problem I've noticed is that the combat monsters tend to dominate combat so fast that the other characters don't get to do squat. And if you provide enough of a challenge for the combat monster, the non-combat monsters don't have much chance of contributing, as they're either not going to hit, or die extremely fast if the challenge focuses on them. The most balanced encounters seem to require a lot of mooks to give the average runners something to shoot at, and a couple cyberzombies for the Troll/Ork weapons specialist to consume more than 2 of his IPs. But large combats just aren't that believable to have happen very often. |
Thank you for pointing out exactly what my problem is. The mage is overshadowing everybody else in combat atm, and it woud be nice if he didn't have a way of taking out the mooks along with the cyberzombie in a single turn yet still have a way to contribute to the fight.
It's a pity about large combats.
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
Stun damage can indeed be healed by First Aid. |
...you sure? I thought all stun had to be recovered by rest (save for the temporary effect of stim patches).
true, mages are overpowered even compared to combat monsters . . but if you want longer battles, have the mooks actually USE TACTICS . . with the SR4 kinda Matrix Style and stuff you'd probably be able to have a drop-down-view of the whole battle so it basically can end up like a game of chess . . with blood of course *g*
The other problem with a protracted battle is the situation under which the engagement happens - that is, breaking into a secured area.
The longer a battle lasts, the more likely it is that reinforcements will be alerted and consequently, everyone has a bad night.
Specialists will always dominate the focus in their area of specialization - this is true of riggers, deckers, mages, combat monsters and so on. A matrix run that only takes seconds in game time can take an hour of game time, which leaves everyone else insanely bored. Conversely, one trick ponies will usually be useless and insanely bored in situations that don't touch on their specialization.
Which is why PCs should always, imho, take meaningful levels in a skill or two that doesn't directly pertain to their job function. It means players will have more opportunities to do things in the game and as a practical note, it really sucks if the only guy who knew first aid was the one who found the landmine.
-Siege
The longer a battle lasts, the more likely it is that reinforcements will be alerted and consequently, everyone has a bad night.
Specialists will always dominate the focus in their area of specialization - this is true of riggers, deckers, mages, combat monsters and so on. A matrix run that only takes seconds in game time can take an hour of game time, which leaves everyone else insanely bored. Conversely, one trick ponies will usually be useless and insanely bored in situations that don't touch on their specialization.
Which is why PCs should always, imho, take meaningful levels in a skill or two that doesn't directly pertain to their job function. It means players will have more opportunities to do things in the game and as a practical note, it really sucks if the only guy who knew first aid was the one who found the landmine.
-Siege
Yeah, but the guy who decides to branch out usually gets gimped cause he can't compete with the specialists.
A guy with a rating 1 in anything is way more of a liability than a guy who didn't take the skill at all, because the rating 1 runner is more likely to try, then fail.
A guy with a rating 1 in anything is way more of a liability than a guy who didn't take the skill at all, because the rating 1 runner is more likely to try, then fail.
There's gimped and then there's gimped.
Comparing 6 dice to 1 die, yes - the specialist wins as well she should.
6 dice to 3 or 4 dice? Still enough to be useful without threatening the specialist.
And if the specialist is otherwise unavailable, those 3 or 4 dice can be amazingly useful.
-Siege
Comparing 6 dice to 1 die, yes - the specialist wins as well she should.
6 dice to 3 or 4 dice? Still enough to be useful without threatening the specialist.
And if the specialist is otherwise unavailable, those 3 or 4 dice can be amazingly useful.
-Siege
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) | ||||
...you sure? I thought all stun had to be recovered by rest (save for the temporary effect of stim patches). |
What temporary effect of stim patches? In SR4 they only allow you to ignore stun penalties, they don't temporarily heal stun like they did in SR3 and earlier.
Make sure to apply visual modifiers to targetted spells. I'm assuming the mage in question(magic 6 you said) does not in fact have cyber eyes? If not toss in some smoke and all kinds of stuff like that that is dirt cheap that smart sec forces should have for normal firefights anyway and reduce his pool. The problem you seem to be having is that the player built a straight up true blue combat mage. What you don't realize is that you would have a very similar problem if someone built a throw adept that could chunk 4 grenades an IP with 9-14 dice per throw. Someone who can reliably deal a massive amount of AOE damage rapidly finishes off a fight. So, visual modifiers to reduce his pool a bit, and some decent counterspelling or warding and you should be much closer to set.
Chris
Chris
3 to 4 dice is well trained to me, and my small group of 4 is actually pretty good about spreading out their skills to 3/4 in a lot of things. But even so, there can only be so much cross training before skills get too much BP.
And to DTFarstar, my problem with that is that it takes the mage out of combat entirely. I don't want the mage to be gimped in combat, just be more in line with what the rest of the team can do.
And to DTFarstar, my problem with that is that it takes the mage out of combat entirely. I don't want the mage to be gimped in combat, just be more in line with what the rest of the team can do.
| QUOTE (Mr. Unpronounceable) | ||||||
What temporary effect of stim patches? In SR4 they only allow you to ignore stun penalties, they don't temporarily heal stun like they did in SR3 and earlier. |
...ack, I'm thinking old school again (recently finished running a 3rd ed campaign).
| QUOTE (Ddays) |
| A guy with a rating 1 in anything is way more of a liability than a guy who didn't take the skill at all, because the rating 1 runner is more likely to try, then fail. |
As for someone willing to take a chance with 1 die - sometimes you just have to take a shot.
"Hey guys, I slept through a class on how to disarm a bomb, but Crazy Harry, the Mad Bomber who Bombs at Midnight is dead, we're trapped in a vault and unless anyone else has any bright ideas, the timer is ten seconds away from zero. You want I should toss my 1 die of demolitions and maybe get us blown up ten seconds sooner than we would have otherwise?"
Now, if the character elbowed Crazy Harry out of the way in his eagerness to reach the bomb first, his 1 die of demolitions held in a trembling hand, it is the responsibility of the Weapons Specialist to kill him without hitting the bomb so Crazy Harry can carry on.
-Siege
| QUOTE (Ddays) |
| And to DTFarstar, my problem with that is that it takes the mage out of combat entirely. I don't want the mage to be gimped in combat, just be more in line with what the rest of the team can do. |
It sounds like your Mage's spells don't do anything in one pass that two skillfully places grenades doesn't do, so similar tactics are good for defense. Cover, of course, doesn't apply because spells go through barriers. So having defensive positions that are spaced well apart and allow for popout shots is a good tactic.
For defending a building, it would be best to have guards with pistols at least 20m apart- and from positions that can be fired from then retreated behind. Then the mage must both spot the target (perception test) and can only hit one at a time.
High force spells leave an aura for much longer, too. You could start rolling perception tests for the authorities to home in on the Mage's fake SIN(s) or real hideout, depending on how available the aura is for a forensic mage to examine.
And GTMF is a very valid and necessary tactic. What sec team wouldn't start blasting on the mage and/or dude with the grenades, rockets or missles?
Well obviously it's necessary since mages have so much raw power at their disposal. I'm actually frightened for when my mage finally gets improved masking and slips under the radar in combat.
I always envisioned that standard security were just there as 'canaries in the coal mine' when one (or more) drops, that's when everybody else gets alerted and starts to act.
When a real response team shows up, they'll have usable countermeasures against magic. Always using partial (-2DP) or full cover (-4DP) (behind portable sheilds if necessary). Judicious use of thermal smoke (-4), flash bangs (-1), etc all detract from dice pools and help even the score. Not to mention that many office buildings will have a mild background count (-1).
[ Spoiler ]
When a real response team shows up, they'll have usable countermeasures against magic. Always using partial (-2DP) or full cover (-4DP) (behind portable sheilds if necessary). Judicious use of thermal smoke (-4), flash bangs (-1), etc all detract from dice pools and help even the score. Not to mention that many office buildings will have a mild background count (-1).
[ Spoiler ]
Thanks apathy, you gave me some great ideas for a run.
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Dec 19 2007, 08:39 AM) | ||
...you sure? I thought all stun had to be recovered by rest (save for the temporary effect of stim patches). |
A few quotes ...
| QUOTE (SR4 pg. 124) |
| First Aid (Logic) The First Aid skill governs basic medicine in a hands-on sense, as a paramedic rather than a physician. This skill provides little knowledge of cybernetics and how they function, and cannot be used to repair them. Default: Yes Skill Group: Biotech Specializations: By type of treatment (Chemical Burns, Combat Wounds, Sports Injuries, Electric Shock, etc.) |
Note the presence of the Electric Shock Specialization. Electricity causes Stun damage in SR4.
| QUOTE (SR4 pg. 242) |
| Using First Aid Characters with the First Aid skill may immediately help reduce the trauma of wounds (Stun or Physical). First Aid may only be applied within 12 hours of when the damage was taken. |
Can't get much clearer than that.
Geek the mage is fine, but too many GMs are quick to metagame with it. If the Mage happens to be an ork in an armored jacket sustaining a few spells and is just sitting behind cover firing off potshots with his predator like the rest of the group, "Geek the mage!" shouldn't really come into it because unless there's a Sec Mage there to spot him, how in the hell do they know he's the mage to begin with?
Unless the mage has some odd Centering or Geas requirement, or a Shamanic mask, I don't see how you're going to know who the mage is short of assensing the entire team, anyway. And lets face it, if the opposing sec Mage is going to spend his first combat round Astrally Perceiving and Assensing, he's not likely to survive to the second.
Actually, going by the rules, it isn't all that difficult to spot spellcasting, even for a mundane, despite what the fluff implies.
We're talking about a Mage blasting off Stunball on every pass, here, which is supposedly fairly obvious because people are going down without bulletholes and the Mage isn't shooting but is doing something.
Even so, a properly prepared team might be able to hide their Stunball-blasting Mage, and then you might just have to accept that the team has prepared too well for the run you've prepared.
Even so, a properly prepared team might be able to hide their Stunball-blasting Mage, and then you might just have to accept that the team has prepared too well for the run you've prepared.
The rule is something to the effect of "+2 to spot a spell caster casting a spell" versus the roleplaying aspects.
-Siege
-Siege
I've always thought of it as a game about breaking LOS, it highly rewards indirect fire weapons, stealth and cover - maybe your security guards need to go for CS grenades and thermal smoke before the pistols - CS is an opaque gas and will probably also disrupt los giving negative casting modifiers.
| QUOTE (SR4 pg. 168) |
| NOTICING MAGIC Just how obvious are magical skills? Not very, since most spells and spirits have little, if any, visible effect in the physical world (unless the magician prefers to have flashy effects, or her tradition calls for it). An observer has to notice the magician’s intense look of concentration, whispered incantations, and small gestures. Magicians of some traditions display a more visible change when practicing magic known as the shamanic mask. The shamanic mask typically changes the magician’s features temporarily to display characteristics appropriate to her mentor spirit or tradition—an eagle shaman, for example, might seem to have feathers or beaklike features while spellcasting or summoning. Noticing if someone is using a magical skill requires a Perception Test (p. 117) with a threshold equal to 6 minus the magic’s Force—more powerful magic is easier to spot. The gamemaster should apply additional modifiers as appropriate, or if the perceiver is Awakened themselves (+2 dice), astrally perceiving (+2 dice), or if a shamanic mask is evident (+2 dice). |
The first paragraph makes is seem more difficult of a task than what the actual rules in the second paragraph dictate.
I've always been afraid of super heavy resistance regarding surprise attacks.
The one time I optimize a sniper to be a big baddie, he nearly wipes the entire team before they can find his position. (Before anybody asks, the team knew something was up at the meet and had drones surveying the area as well as a spirit searching, just plain bad rolls on their part)
The one time I optimize a sniper to be a big baddie, he nearly wipes the entire team before they can find his position. (Before anybody asks, the team knew something was up at the meet and had drones surveying the area as well as a spirit searching, just plain bad rolls on their part)
Mages roll right over mundies; thats a hard thing to avoid. Its pretty much how the system was designed, if a site doesn't have a sec mage on duty its pretty much ice cream for (awakened) freaks. Your basic security guard isn't going to fare well against any runner, but its probably most noticeable against mages (and trolls with Panther Cannons).
So, the logical conclusion is sites that need to be defended will have magical security. If they can't afford it (because magic is rare, expensive and sometimes just plain hard to come by), then they'll adopt tactics that minimize their magical vulnerability. If a bunch of schmoes attempt to swarm the pc's, whether its a Stunball or grenades or full-auto bursts, things are not going to go well for them.
Given that magic, cyberware, and ten foot tall trolls are possibilities in SR, I would think that your average, everyday security guard is going to take that as his cue not to think he's Rambo. Schmoe-level security isn't there to take pc's on in head to head fights, they're there to rattle doorknobs, spot intruders, sound the alarm and then delay and inconvenience the runners until the High Threat Response Teams (whether they be from the parent corp or Lone Star) show up to deal with them. Lock it down, get the non-combatants to safety, and make sure the high karma backup is on the way. Schmoes should be taking full-cover and holding their actions to unload a tsunami of gunfire on the first pc that comes their way, not aggressively rooting out the intruders.
So, the logical conclusion is sites that need to be defended will have magical security. If they can't afford it (because magic is rare, expensive and sometimes just plain hard to come by), then they'll adopt tactics that minimize their magical vulnerability. If a bunch of schmoes attempt to swarm the pc's, whether its a Stunball or grenades or full-auto bursts, things are not going to go well for them.
Given that magic, cyberware, and ten foot tall trolls are possibilities in SR, I would think that your average, everyday security guard is going to take that as his cue not to think he's Rambo. Schmoe-level security isn't there to take pc's on in head to head fights, they're there to rattle doorknobs, spot intruders, sound the alarm and then delay and inconvenience the runners until the High Threat Response Teams (whether they be from the parent corp or Lone Star) show up to deal with them. Lock it down, get the non-combatants to safety, and make sure the high karma backup is on the way. Schmoes should be taking full-cover and holding their actions to unload a tsunami of gunfire on the first pc that comes their way, not aggressively rooting out the intruders.
| QUOTE (Ddays @ Dec 18 2007, 05:30 PM) | ||
Yeah, guess that's true. Explains why my favorite part of the game are the social situations where all the characters be quirky and interact. And my problem with sneak and steal is that my other dudes do their job and that's it for their part in the session. It goes: A. Matrix hijinks B. Related security bust ups C. Sneaking in Instead of it being spread out evenly across the session. Which wouldn't be a problem if the entire team was doing the sneaking, but I don't have a gang of Tir Elf Ninjas, so I can't really make any logical explanation on why the burly troll is trying to tip toe his way past security. |
Its simple, really, remind your players that sneaking, matrix hijinx, and blowing stuff up are not isolated from each other. Everything happens at once. The opposition are doing everything at once. They no not just line up and die. Every security camera and door is connected to the matrix. They figure out where you are and they lock you down
so you can't escape. Matrix overwatch must be constant to prevent the security from prevailing simply due to their control of the terrain.
On the issue of stealth, it is the most powerful option in the game, but it isn't perfect. There are some things which don't need to make perception checks to spot you (pressure plates, motion sensors), and when you run into one of them you'll damn well need to be sure that the guards are as far away from you as is possible (which is where the heavy hitters may come in) and that your guys have control of the matrix-connected security systems.
The heavy weapons guys are important for the get away, because they have to kill quick. Remember, if a fight with the police drags out for too long, one of two things will happen. A) They'll will run out of police or B) The fight will escalate to the point where you can't possibly win. Unless you're Shadowrunning in Mayberry, the latter is significantly more likely than the former. Once the shooting starts, they have only so much time to get out before they're so overwhelmed that they can't possibly survive. This is the mistake that the North Hollywood guys made, they took too long.
This means that it has to be coordinated so that the matrix guy, the stealth guy, and the shooting guys are all doing different things at the exact same time in order to ensure that they don't get trapped.
The mage, depending on his spell list, can fulfill multiple roles, of which combat is the least important.
What I was trying to say and failed earlier is that mages are above everything else - VERSATILE so if this Magic 6 guy built his character right he has 11 other spells he can cast. If you let him wail and destroy some security then have the others use intelligent mage tactics and kill his Stunball dice pool he should have the ability to do other things, if he just continually tries to stunball and fail... don't feel bad. Suggest other alternatives, use enemy mages to SHOW him other alternatives. There are alot of spells out there and if all he has is self boost and combat spells... well 5 karma and a little time will remedy that.
Above any other skill that could potentially be useful to a shadowrunner innovation is the most important. The ability to flow with pressure and come up with new tactics instead of just blowing through all the opposition is what Shadowrun is all about because you know who has more guns, mages, and badass tech than you? Every corp and government in the damn game.
Chris
Above any other skill that could potentially be useful to a shadowrunner innovation is the most important. The ability to flow with pressure and come up with new tactics instead of just blowing through all the opposition is what Shadowrun is all about because you know who has more guns, mages, and badass tech than you? Every corp and government in the damn game.
Chris
Well, my main problem is that anything that foils specifically high force stunball foils almost everything else he can do short of calling up a spirit in reserve.
Either that or they run away and it's back to the one thing at a time gaming which is rather boring unless you introduce some weird contrived situation.
THE GUY'S A LIVING MANA WARD, SO YOU BETTER USE IMPROVED INVISIBILITY TO GET THE TEAM AWAY. OH HEY SAMMIES, TRY TO TAKE HIM OUT WHILE I FORCE THE MAGE TO PLAY SUPPORT.
Either that or they run away and it's back to the one thing at a time gaming which is rather boring unless you introduce some weird contrived situation.
THE GUY'S A LIVING MANA WARD, SO YOU BETTER USE IMPROVED INVISIBILITY TO GET THE TEAM AWAY. OH HEY SAMMIES, TRY TO TAKE HIM OUT WHILE I FORCE THE MAGE TO PLAY SUPPORT.
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