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Ravor
In a world where we are told that 1% of the population are Awakened, and even less then that are able to cast spells, and even among the few lucky ones that are Mages the majority of them have to overcast to hit ( Force 6 ) then yes, someone who can hit ( Force 12 ) multiple times a night will stand out if they are assaulting a complex where the guards are almost always caught in groups with their pants down. Think about how fragging rare a ( Magic 5-6 ) Mage really is.

As for whether or not the rumour mill gets things right well, the Mage's behavior is going to weigh the odds against his favor in that aspect, and considering that it appears that ( Force 12 ) Stunballs is the Mage's go-to tactic I think that it is mere DM Fiat if the Runner doesn't build a rep, not the other way around.

toturi
QUOTE (Ravor)
In a world where we are told that 1% of the population are Awakened, and even less then that are able to cast spells, and even among the few lucky ones that are Mages the majority of them have to overcast to hit ( Force 6 ) then yes, someone who can hit ( Force 12 ) multiple times a night will stand out if they are assaulting a complex where the guards are almost always caught in groups with their pants down. Think about how fragging rare a ( Magic 5-6 ) Mage really is.

As for whether or not the rumour mill gets things right well, the Mage's behavior is going to weigh the odds against his favor in that aspect, and considering that it appears that ( Force 12 ) Stunballs is the Mage's go-to tactic I think that it is mere DM Fiat if the Runner doesn't build a rep, not the other way around.

Only if you know that it is a Force 12 Stunball. How does your NPCs know that it was a Force 12 Stunball? How do your NPCs know that the Force 12 Stunball was cast multiple times a night?

A better question would be: How rare a Magic 5-6 mage runner really is?

While the odds are that eventually the mage will get a reputation for casting high force spells, it is not a given. If the magical investigators are able to find out that a very high force spell was cast, if the investigators are able to link it to the other high force spells cast on other runs, if the investigators are able to link them to that one mage, each of these are probable but as long as a single link in the chain is broken, then there is no link. The mage's behavior weighs the odds against him but with the odds are for him in the first place, it is easily even dice.
Glyph
Keep in mind, also, that initiation has become fairly common, so a Magic of 6 is really more like a skill of 4 - impressive, but not by any means the best out there.
Ravor
Well the easiest way for a magical investagator to tell whether or not a ( Force 12 ) spell was cast is to see how long the the aura remains in the Astral, you can figure that by the time the magical investagator arrives on the scene most low to mid Force spells are already unreadable, so if a spell is even visible at all it is going to warrent determining it's Force.


And although I agree that Initation is fairly common, in Fourth Edition it doesn't follow that an Initite is going to spend the additional Karma needed to increase their ( Magic ), hells, Jane Awakened doesn't even need to earn her first Grade until after she's capped out at ( Magic 6 ).


And as for how common ( Magic 5+ ) Mages are in the Shadow Community, I'd say almost as rare as Hen's Teeth, Mages are rare enough that a "mere" ( Magic 3 ) Mage can basically write her own ticket with the corps, so I'd imagine that the guys and gals able to drop Magical Tac-nukes at will would be even better off selling out to da' man.
Mercer
QUOTE (toturi)
A better question would be: How rare a Magic 5-6 mage runner really is?

By my calculations, there are approximately 20 shadowrunning magic users (adept or full mage casters) with Magic Ratings in the 5-6 Range (Competent, Superior or Ultimate). In Seattle. Those are the numbers I keep in my head for my game, so a guy throwing a lot of Force 12 Stunballs would stick out. YMMV.
Glyph
I've always had a bit of a logical problem with the rules for astral signatures, namely that they are identified by assensing, by another magician. Okay, so the investigating magician can identify you by that signature, if he has the opportunity to read your aura. But how does that help any other magician in identifying you? The aura information can't be recorded, so really, only the mage doing the actual assensing should be able to use the aura to identify the perp.

Plus, how could that hold up in court? It would be the assensing mage's word against the perp's. Not a problem for a corporation dealing with a SINless runner in its custody, but definitely a problem for any kind of legal proceeding. It's like trying to use a fingerprint to identify someone, when you can't produce an actual fingerprint, just someone who saw the fingerprint, and says that it matches the perp's.

There has to be some way that the information gained can be recorded, or at least shared, for auras to be useful as evidence, but I don't see anything in the rules about that, unless there's something I missed.
kzt
There really isn't any reason someone can't write a description system like they use with fingerprints. If that's useful to you, why not assume that this kind of obvious thing happened?
Cthulhudreams
Not sure that solves the problem.

If the only person who saw the initial Astral Sig was the mage, so he could have just assessed someone he didn't like, and then used that description. Or indeed whatever description he felt like in the first place.

That and the description system for fingerprints is pretty generic isn't it, so lots of prints will have similar descriptions but be different?
Whipstitch
All of the previous reasons are a big part of why it says in Street Magic that a lot of magical evidence and magically induced testimony doesn't hold up in (many) of the Sixth World's courtrooms. Astral detective work is sometimes useful for law enforcement to find who it is they intend to nail to the wall in the first place, but once they think they know who they're after they're probably stuck using that information merely to try and set up a sting or otherwise catch the culprit in the act at a later date. Just think of those goofy cop films where it's no mystery who the evil drug lord/arms dealer is and all the policeman are screaming at eachother because they have to get evidence first before they can take somebody down and you'll be on the right trail. And of course, if you're SINless, Lonestar will probably be quite happy to just go ahead and fabricate as much evidence as they need on you anyway. In the words of Dave Chapelle: "Just sprinkle some crack on 'im!"
Glyph
That's actually kind of how I see it, as something similar to testimony from ghosts - it might lead you to the right suspect, but won't help you much in court. But I think it is overused as something mages need to be paranoid about.

Yes, leaving your astral signature behind isn't an optimal situation, but it doesn't mean that Lone Star and everyone else has it on file all of a sudden. It only means that a few wage mages working for that corporation will be able to identify that same astral signature later.

Truthfully, mundane forensic evidence, and leaving things that could be used as ritual links (shell casings, etc.), are both things that shadowrunners should be far more concerned about.
Cthulhudreams
Isn't every gun in SR caseless? I'd assume most of the bullets would be so distorted by hitting something that you'd have a hard time matching bullets to exact guns.
Fortune
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams)
Isn't every gun in SR caseless?

The default is assumed to be caseless, but that does not mean every gun on the streets is equiped to fire caseless ammunition.
Cthulhudreams
Yeah, though I'd be surprised if the runners went for the 'bad' option by deliberate choice.

Blood seems to be the most likely one to leave behind. And your video image.
toturi
QUOTE (Glyph)
I've always had a bit of a logical problem with the rules for astral signatures, namely that they are identified by assensing, by another magician. Okay, so the investigating magician can identify you by that signature, if he has the opportunity to read your aura. But how does that help any other magician in identifying you? The aura information can't be recorded, so really, only the mage doing the actual assensing should be able to use the aura to identify the perp.

Plus, how could that hold up in court? It would be the assensing mage's word against the perp's. Not a problem for a corporation dealing with a SINless runner in its custody, but definitely a problem for any kind of legal proceeding. It's like trying to use a fingerprint to identify someone, when you can't produce an actual fingerprint, just someone who saw the fingerprint, and says that it matches the perp's.

There has to be some way that the information gained can be recorded, or at least shared, for auras to be useful as evidence, but I don't see anything in the rules about that, unless there's something I missed.

Until SR4 decides to retcon or canonise it, I'd go with the SR3 explanation of Mana-sensitive Film (SOTA 2064).
Ravor
Wasn't that basically just kirrilian (spelling?) photos?
toturi
Yes, I think so. But it doesn't detract from the fact that it is evidence as opposed to the magician's testimony.
Ravor
Hmm, could mundanes use it with a little training or was it so specialized and touchy that you might as well pay the Mage to work her mojo?

Because if any mundane sec-guard could take a few classes and be able to capture a Mage's Astral Sig on film then not cleaning up every last trace of your Astral Fingerprint is just as bad as setting your cyber to accept all wireless connections by default.

Forget Masking, the first metamagic any smart Runner learns is the one that lets you erase your Astral Sigs quickly. (I forget its name at the moment, and don't have access to my books yet.)
Glyph
QUOTE (Ravor)
Forget Masking, the first metamagic any smart Runner learns is the one that lets you erase your Astral Sigs quickly. (I forget its name at the moment, and don't have access to my books yet.)

Cleansing lets you erase your signature in one complex action. Flexible Signature lets you disguise your astral signature and/or make it last less long.

QUOTE (toturi)

Until SR4 decides to retcon or canonise it, I'd go with the SR3 explanation of Mana-sensitive Film (SOTA 2064).


Thanks, toturi. That's one of the books I don't have. And it would at least explain different mages or law enforcement agencies having a way to share data on astral signatures.
toturi
QUOTE (Ravor)
Hmm, could mundanes use it with a little training or was it so specialized and touchy that you might as well pay the Mage to work her mojo?

Well the old rules were to use a Photograhy related Knowledge test and the successes counted as halved for the old Astral Perception test.

So no, not any mundane could do it, but since skilled CSIs are considerably more than skilled forensic mages...
Fortune
QUOTE (toturi @ Jan 7 2008, 04:50 PM)
I'd go with the SR3 explanation of Mana-sensitive Film (SOTA 2064).

Doesn't that just capture images of Auras that are actually still present, as opposed to Signatures, which are the remaining residue of past magical activity?
toturi
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (toturi @ Jan 7 2008, 04:50 PM)
I'd go with the SR3 explanation of Mana-sensitive Film (SOTA 2064).

Doesn't that just capture images of Auras that are actually still present, as opposed to Signatures, which are the remaining residue of past magical activity?

No, it not only just captures manifesting magicians and spirits(no test required) but if you want background count, dual nature critters, auras and spell signature, that's when you want to score high on your Knowledge test roll.
Apathy
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams)
Yeah, though I'd be surprised if the runners went for the 'bad' option by deliberate choice.

Blood seems to be the most likely one to leave behind. And your video image.

There are other people who could respond better to this than me, but I believe that in the real world there are some disadvantages to caseless ammo as well. Things like ammo durability spring to mind. (Do you really want to use ammo that's basically encased in paper if you're dragging your SMG through the sewers, in the rain, etc?) Please let me know if this understanding is incorrect.

Of course, there are no RAW mechanics for this sort of thing. But if you need a fluff explanation why there would still be guns using cased ammo, that might fit.
Jhaiisiin
I've not paid much attention to the SR4 artwork, but I know that all artwork for SR3 showed cased ammo and shells being expended. Maybe RAW mentioned something I missed.
kzt
QUOTE (Apathy)
I believe that in the real world there are some disadvantages to caseless ammo as well. Things like ammo durability spring to mind. (Do you really want to use ammo that's basically encased in paper if you're dragging your SMG through the sewers, in the rain, etc?) Please let me know if this understanding is incorrect.

The only small arm that had caseless sort of working was the G11. This gun bankrupted HK. I corresponded with someone who used one of the 2000 or so that the FRG bought. It wasn't a total POS, but it needed work. Exact reason I can't remember. When BAE bought HK out of bankrupcy I think they trashed all the G11 tooling.

The tech is still out there, and Dynamit Nobel knows how to design caseless ammo that won't blow your gun up, but nobody has yet ventured there since HK. It's a huge capital investment to make that leap.

The gun that had the water problem was the 152mm gun on the Sheridan in Vietnam.
Cthulhudreams
QUOTE (Apathy)
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Jan 7 2008, 12:55 AM)
Yeah, though I'd be surprised if the runners went for the 'bad' option by deliberate choice.

Blood seems to be the most likely one to leave behind. And your video image.

There are other people who could respond better to this than me, but I believe that in the real world there are some disadvantages to caseless ammo as well. Things like ammo durability spring to mind. (Do you really want to use ammo that's basically encased in paper if you're dragging your SMG through the sewers, in the rain, etc?) Please let me know if this understanding is incorrect.

Of course, there are no RAW mechanics for this sort of thing. But if you need a fluff explanation why there would still be guns using cased ammo, that might fit.

The flip side is of course that the bad guys can pick up your casings and then shoot unstoppable electric death at you with an unlimited range that doesn't require line of sight. I'd just pack my ammo in waterproof webbing and be a bit more careful unless I thought I'd be able to go back and pick up all my brass. Which I wouldn't.

But yeah caseless ammo being stock on every guns including military ones supposes that they've solved the problems of caseless weapons to some degree, or at least got to the point where the advantages (things like lighter weight allowing larger infantry loadouts) outweigh the disadvantages (tougher cooling systems, unreliability under stress etc). Otherwise the military wouldn't use it. Without blatant corruption. Though why ares would equip its own ares firewatch teams with inferior ares products when they can just produce the 2030 cased version would be baffling.
Riley37
On caseless ammo, which is not quite about Stunball 12:
Wikipedia article names several issues. One major issue is heat buildup. When an empty cartridge case leaves the gun, it carries a fair bit of heat with it. Caseless ammo guns need cooling for autofire (maybe even for sustained semi-auto fire). Rube Goldberg approach: use blowback or recoil to drive a mini cooling fan...
I dunno about waterproofing issues; off the cuff, something like wax paper should suffice and still burn up during firing. I'm gonna figure that by 2070, someone has solved that issue.
Artists draw cased ammo because a) that's what they've seen and b) the cases flying out of the gun is such a stock convention when drawing a gunfight.
GryMor
QUOTE (kzt)

The only small arm that had caseless sort of working was the G11.  This gun bankrupted HK.  I corresponded with someone who used one of the 2000 or so that the FRG bought.  It wasn't a total POS, but it needed work.  Exact reason I can't remember.  When BAE bought HK out of bankrupcy I think they trashed all the G11 tooling.


Metalstorm weapons are 'caseless' in as much as the barrel serves the purpose of the case and magazine. Assuming you aren't just dropping empty magazines/barrels on the ground, you get all the benefits of caseless ammo without the downsides (it doesn't have water issues, heat and residue buildup is irrelevant since you swap out barrels). Also, no ammo feed to get jammed.

Nothing on the market yet, so there may be problems that are being hushed up.
Apathy
I would imagine that cased ammo might be the poor gang-banger's selection. In the Barrens he's unlikely to run into any mages, and police don't bother investigating as long as he's only killing other gangers. With soldiers it would depend on how much lighter the ammo was and how well they solved the other problems. With cops I'd guess they wouldn't see ritual magic as that likely, so they might not care about casings. Shadowrunners are the only ones who really need caseless ammo.

Also, in the same way that the guy with caseless ammo can put his gun in a plastic bag to keep the ammo from getting soggy/mildew, the guy with the cased ammo can put his gun inside a bag to keep casings from flying everywhere. As long as the guy plans ahead cased versus caseless is just a 'fluff' issue.
Whipstitch
I'd think that small arms are likely the last thing they're worried about right now with metalstorm anyway. I think the technology, if and when it gets used, will be applied to weapon systems that are already prohibitively expensive enough where a further cost increase isn't that big of a deal as long as the weapon works better or in situations where metalstorm could actually be less expensive than the current alternatives. When it comes to small arms "If it's not broke don't fix it" tends to win out over the flavor of the month in the end. After all, there still really isn't much if anything wrong with the ol' Colt .45
Cthulhudreams
Assuming someone comes up with a good manufacturing method, caseless ammo is actually likely to be cheaper due to the lack of, well, a case.

The manufacturing method I've handwaved there is a bit if wink.gif
Whipstitch
It's not enough to consider the costs of manufacturing though. Not even remotely; you need to have a customer base to make the round worth selling, and in the case of milspec grade weapons you need to accomodate a government or two to get the contracts to make the venture worthwhile. And from the military's perspective adopting a new weapon that uses new ammo can mean replacing entire stockpiles, which is tantamount to throwing out or socking away literally tons of perfectly good weaponry. Hell, the move from the ol' M1911 .45 ACP service pistol to the Beretta was as much over politics and conforming to the NATO standard ammo as it was over peformance.
Siege
QUOTE (Whipstitch)
It's not enough to consider the costs of manufacturing though. Not even remotely; you need to have a customer base to make the round worth selling, and in the case of milspec grade weapons you need to accomodate a government or two to get the contracts to make the venture worthwhile. And from the military's perspective adopting a new weapon that uses new ammo can mean replacing entire stockpiles, which is tantamount to throwing out or socking away literally tons of perfectly good weaponry. Hell, the move from the ol' M1911 .45 ACP service pistol to the Beretta was as much over politics and conforming to the NATO standard ammo as it was over peformance.

And what a great decision that was.

-Siege
Tarantula
Just some notes on his character sheet....

Strength 1, he can lift and carry 10kg worth of stuff with no test.

I'm pretty sure that a flashlight, armor vest, and magesight goggles w/30m of myomeric rope weigh more than that.

Also, how is he sustaining the increased reflexes spell? (I'll note you didn't specify a spell type for the foci)

Without this sustained, he's looking at initiative of 10, which isn't exactly fantastic. If he wants to keep it sustained with his sustaining focus, that limits it to force 3, meaning at best (3 successes) he'll be at 12 initiative, and 3 passes. Not to mention having a sustained spell, which is problematic in and of itself (particularly with wards, or spirits/astral magical guards).

Another point, his vision enhancement contacts. If they're constantly clarifying and modifying the vision he's seeing, then he can't cast out of them. Just the same as he couldn't cast through nightvision goggles.

As far as mechanicals of the sheet go: he does have 4bp to spare.
He also started with 1 too many spells, though, he could easily lose one like orgasm or physical barrier.
Cthulhudreams
QUOTE (Whipstitch)
It's not enough to consider the costs of manufacturing though. Not even remotely; you need to have a customer base to make the round worth selling, and in the case of milspec grade weapons you need to accomodate a government or two to get the contracts to make the venture worthwhile. And from the military's perspective adopting a new weapon that uses new ammo can mean replacing entire stockpiles, which is tantamount to throwing out or socking away literally tons of perfectly good weaponry. Hell, the move from the ol' M1911 .45 ACP service pistol to the Beretta was as much over politics and conforming to the NATO standard ammo as it was over peformance.

But all the weapons use caseless ammo including the milspec assault rifles wink.gif

It's a cool circular argument really, but all other things being equal caseless ammo is better due to the lighter weight. I agree with you about the standardized ammo thing though, which is really important due to logistics and all that. Again 'all other things being equal' is concealment for MOUNDS of handwavium, but with the standard being caseless it would seem that the exception rather than the rule would be cased. I'd assume even the massive NATO stockpiles of 7.62MM and 5.56 MM wouldn't be worth much by 2070.
Whipstitch
Oh, yeah, I didn't mean for any of what I said to impact how the SR4 rules should be interpreted. If anything, I think that it means cased ammunition should be virtually extinct. Standardization has a lot of benefits, and if the standard is caseless than caseless it is. It's not really inconceivable at all to think that at some point things came to a head and cheap caseless manufacturing became viable at the same time that many weapons were being phased out so the corps invested in a different way of handling things by 2070. I was just running my mouth about IRL issues with weapons, really, and since small arms are a rather mature technology, it's not uncommon for most advances to be incremental and more related to manufacturing and optics than widescale changes in the way the weapons actually operate at this point. Economics really is the deciding factor in many cases.
Cthulhudreams
Ah right - I agree with that, though there have been some significant changes along the way, but you are correct in drilling down to the fact that most of them arise from economics, not a technological breakthroughs - like the rise of automatic magazine based weapons in general issue is due to the declining price of firearms due to improving manufacturing techniques.

I imagine the next 'wave' of firearms 'innovation' is going to focus heavily on mobile technology, but thats my misty eyed IT optimist at work there, but that would invalidate the SR look at it, which seems to be smartgun systems as the technological innovation, then bigger guns rah rah.
Ravor
Although I haven't my books with me at the moment, if I remember correctly the ritual bond between your ammo casings and you should expire long before a Ritual Circle would be able to be gathered together, the CSI geeks might be a bigger threat though.
cndblank
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams)
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Jan 7 2008, 07:32 PM)
It's not enough to consider the costs of manufacturing though. Not even remotely; you need to have a customer base to make the round worth selling, and in the case of milspec grade weapons you need to accomodate a government or two to get the contracts to make the venture worthwhile. And from the military's perspective adopting a new weapon that uses new ammo can mean replacing entire stockpiles, which is tantamount to throwing out or socking away literally tons of perfectly good weaponry. Hell, the move from the ol' M1911 .45 ACP service pistol to the Beretta was as much over politics and conforming to the NATO standard ammo as it was over peformance.

But all the weapons use caseless ammo including the milspec assault rifles wink.gif

It's a cool circular argument really, but all other things being equal caseless ammo is better due to the lighter weight. I agree with you about the standardized ammo thing though, which is really important due to logistics and all that. Again 'all other things being equal' is concealment for MOUNDS of handwavium, but with the standard being caseless it would seem that the exception rather than the rule would be cased. I'd assume even the massive NATO stockpiles of 7.62MM and 5.56 MM wouldn't be worth much by 2070.

Yeah, considering how much equipment a modern solder has to carry and how fast modern weapons can go through ammo even on semiautomatic, the military would push for caseless.

Especially when is only an ammo change as opposed to a new weapon system.

All that extra cased ammo left around would just be an excuse to have more firing exercises.
Fortune
Keep in mind that weapons chambered for caseless rounds cannot fire cased ammunition, and vice versa.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Fortune)
Keep in mind that weapons chambered for caseless rounds cannot fire cased ammunition, and vice versa.

Is it possible to make a weapon capable of firing both, if you set out with that specific goal? Is this something expensive/difficult, or something inherently impossible?
Whipstitch
Yep, which is why I believe that the caseless revolution would likely have to coincide with a military initiative to adopt entirely new weapons in order to become the new standard. I'd be willing to bet that with all the balkanization and turmoil that takes place in the Shadowrun timeline probably sped things along at some point too. One would think an awful lot of ammunition stockpiles were lost or consumed over the years, so it's not unthinkable that there'd be lots of parties interested in adopting a new standard between now and 2070, especially since NATO standards aren't a consideration anymore.


Whatever happened to NATO, exactly? My memory's usually pretty good but I'm drawing a blank right now. I can't imagine it survived the shift to the UCAS and the Euro Wars.
Fortune
QUOTE (SR4 pg. 312)
In these basic rules, the difference between cased and caseless ammunition is that caseless ammo has its own propellant and does not have a cartridge case. A gun can fire cased or caseless ammo, but not both.


The first four words of this quote are quite telling however, as they hint that more advanced rules concerning this topic will be included in Arsenal, due out Soon™.
Cthulhudreams
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Jan 10 2008, 05:13 PM)
QUOTE (Fortune @ Jan 10 2008, 05:11 PM)
Keep in mind that weapons chambered for caseless rounds cannot fire cased ammunition, and vice versa.

Is it possible to make a weapon capable of firing both, if you set out with that specific goal? Is this something expensive/difficult, or something inherently impossible?

It's probably not impossible but it removes all the advantages of cased and caseless systems and lumps you with all the disadvantages of both, you'd also need some significant trickery. Caseless guns for example don't need a port to eject spent cases, which has the added advantage the gun can be equally used by right and left handers, and to fire caseless rounds successfully you need to invest significant additional work in a cooling system, because you don't have a big chunk of your produced heat invested in a convenient ready to eject chunk. This is a downer.

The trickery you'd need is a way for the breech and slide to handle differently sized/shaped bullets, though you could make it so the cased rounds had less explosives and stuff, this is potentially very difficult and may be the step to be labeled as 'impossible' With all the exra weight you've created you've probably defeated the reasons you'd go to caseless to begin with: You need right and left handed rifles still, you're rifle is heaver from all the extra bling bling required to handle cased rounds defeating the advantage of light weight ammo, etc.

That said caseless weapons are pretty immature in the grand scheme of things, and no-one has done it yet, and while it may not be impossible it would require a huge amount of extra engineering and needless production costs. So it would entail those two enemies of actually happening for a mass production weapon: difficult and expensive.
Moon-Hawk
Cool, thanks.
cndblank
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams)
That said caseless weapons are pretty immature in the grand scheme of things, and no-one has done it yet, and while it may not be impossible it would require a huge amount of extra engineering and needless production costs. So it would entail those two enemies of actually happening for a mass production weapon: difficult and expensive.

Difficult and expensive....


What is the middle name of the Pentagon?
Mr. Unpronounceable
You know, I always figured that caseless ammo was probably pointless, since they may have developed a different method of activating the primer than the current firing pin...for example, an electrical impulse shouldn't leave any identifing marks on the bullet casing (other than the microdot batch# assuming black-market bullets would have those.)
Stahlseele
QUOTE (cndblank)
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams)
That said caseless weapons are pretty immature in the grand scheme of things, and no-one has done it yet, and while it may not be impossible it would require a huge amount of extra engineering and needless production costs. So it would entail those two enemies of actually happening for a mass production weapon: difficult and expensive.

Difficult and expensive....


What is the middle name of the Pentagon?

target?
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 10 2008, 05:45 PM)
QUOTE (cndblank @ Jan 10 2008, 05:42 PM)
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams)
That said caseless weapons are pretty immature in the grand scheme of things, and no-one has done it yet, and while it may not be impossible it would require a huge amount of extra engineering and needless production costs. So it would entail those two enemies of actually happening for a mass production weapon: difficult and expensive.

Difficult and expensive....


What is the middle name of the Pentagon?

target?

enter sakura gun stage left *g*

edit:hrm, too stupid to propperly quote appearantly <.<
Cthulhudreams
QUOTE (cndblank)
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams)
That said caseless weapons are pretty immature in the grand scheme of things, and no-one has done it yet, and while it may not be impossible it would require a huge amount of extra engineering and needless production costs. So it would entail those two enemies of actually happening for a mass production weapon: difficult and expensive.

Difficult and expensive....


What is the middle name of the Pentagon?

You've got it all wrong. The Department of Defense takes something easy and makes it hard. If they start out with something hard it never works.
TheOneRonin
QUOTE (Stahlseele)
QUOTE (cndblank @ Jan 10 2008, 05:42 PM)
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams)
That said caseless weapons are pretty immature in the grand scheme of things, and no-one has done it yet, and while it may not be impossible it would require a huge amount of extra engineering and needless production costs. So it would entail those two enemies of actually happening for a mass production weapon: difficult and expensive.

Difficult and expensive....


What is the middle name of the Pentagon?

target?

Dude, I know you aren't American, but those of us who are would REALLY rather you not go there...

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