Direct area effect Combat spells only affect targets that the caster can actually see in the targeted area.
Indirect area effect Combat spells affect everyone in the targeted area.
Full Version: Is it just me, or is stunball off the charts?
Unless you miss the target with indirect, then it just mysteriously seems to "go away" per the rules. 
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Direct area effect Combat spells only affect targets that the caster can actually see in the targeted area. Indirect area effect Combat spells affect everyone in the targeted area. |
Fortune, where's that explained?
I can't find a diference for indirect and direct spells under the AoE rules? :/
@GentlemanLoser
Read the section under COMBAT SPELLS (p. 195) before the actual spell descriptions. That details the differences between direct and indirect ones.
Read the section under COMBAT SPELLS (p. 195) before the actual spell descriptions. That details the differences between direct and indirect ones.
Y'know, in SR4 wards are cheap, essentially being a ritual spellcasting that lasts weeks. They also affect VOLUMES rather than surfaces. A mid-level wagemage with a Magic of 4 can create a Force 4 ward that lasts a month and encloses 200m^3 volume per casting (8mx8mx3m) in an afternoon (4hours).
So it's perfectly reasonable to believe that there could be several warded regions in key locations (R&D, payroll, server rooms, security stations, tactical locations, etc). That instantly gives the sec team an extra +4 dice to resist spells as well as extending the time it takes spirits to get to them. Plus any time something begins beating on the ward the mage knows and can sound the alarm.
So it's perfectly reasonable to believe that there could be several warded regions in key locations (R&D, payroll, server rooms, security stations, tactical locations, etc). That instantly gives the sec team an extra +4 dice to resist spells as well as extending the time it takes spirits to get to them. Plus any time something begins beating on the ward the mage knows and can sound the alarm.
| QUOTE (GentlemanLoser @ Dec 21 2007, 02:20 AM) | ||
Fortune, where's that explained? |
| QUOTE (SR4 FAQ) |
| When casting an Indirect Combat spell, do you need to see the target? Or can you cast at a target completely behind cover since they use ranged combat rules? You do need the see the primary target of the spell. However, as noted in the errata, Indirect Combat spells will affect other targets that are unseen by the caster as long as they are caught within the spell's area of effect. Note that the same ruling for grenades applies to Indirect Combat spells cast "at the ground" -- if the attempt is to catch targets in the spell's effect radius, treat it as an Opposed Test, no matter where the spell is actually aimed. |
From the SR4 Errata v. 1.5 [actually added in version 4] ...
| QUOTE (SR4 Errata) |
| p. 196 Indirect Combat Spells [4] Add the following line: “Note that unlike other spells, Indirect Combat spells may affect other targets that the caster cannot see if they are caught within the spell’s area of effect.� |
The applicable entry from page 196 ...
| QUOTE (SR4 pg. 196) |
| Indirect Combat Spells: Indirect Combat spells are treated like ranged combat attacks; the caster makes a Magic + Spellcasting Success Test versus the target’s Reaction. If the spell hits, the target resist with Body + half Impact armor (+ Counterspelling, if available), with each hit reducing the Damage Value. If the modified spell DV does not exceed the modified Armor, Physical damage is converted to Stun. Note that nonliving objects resist damage from an Indirect Combat spell with their Armor rating x 2 (see Barriers, p. 157). |
Hope that helps.
| QUOTE (Ddays) |
| Yeah, the teammates actually do get cover from the mage. Especially in the cubicle systems you describe, it's fairly easy to scurry behind a wall and hide from your own mage while the surprised enemy gets stun balled. Or even more likely, they were behind the mage in the first place. My team tries their best to not have guards run into their position without them knowing, so the whole guards burst in moment rarely happens. More often than not, they get the drop on the guards. Hm, I guess I'll just have to push the limits on what I think they can handle and see if they surprise me. I hope they have a good way of fighting the enemy mage who drops the force 15 stunball first round of combat. |
I've highlighted the problem areas here:
First off: Making it less easy to drop those AoE spells without hitting teammates is well within the rules, the spirit of the rules, and massively effective in most Shadowrun evironments, as has been pointed out repeatedly in this thread. WHy you keep ignoring that I have no idea, but again: Standing behind the mage does NOT mean the team is out of LOS. That is a call YOU chose to make, and now you complain that stunballs that affect the entire officebuilding are too powerful? Dude: Start forcing that LOS thing... it WILL have an effect.
Second: I pointed this out before, if the team is comfortable in combat, you are not playing the enemy hard enough. Player's ALWAYS get the drop on the guards? Sure, maybe the first batch they hit. Then the High THreat Response Teams start HUNTING them. Maybe you should pull a reverse run, where the Runners are the targets, not the paid mercs, and the other guys get the drop on them. Whatever you do, stop giving the players the exact same situations to deal with time and again.
Thirdly: And here is, I suspect, the real problem, a failure of imagination. Force 12 Stunballs breaking your balls? Don't just pull out a BIGGER stunball. that's simple escalation, and it sucks. First: What's to stop your players from workign for that force 16! stunball eventually? Then you shoot for the force 17, and eventually people start cheating and getting stupider, the game breaks down. It is the simplest and least effective countermeasure known to man. Counter it creatively. Use the massive wall of drones, too many to hack. Use technology to counteract stun damage. Use wards. Think of the game like Judo, you don't use force to oppose force, you redirect the force where you want it to go.
| QUOTE (Spike) |
| Thirdly: And here is, I suspect, the real problem, a failure of imagination. Force 12 Stunballs breaking your balls? Don't just pull out a BIGGER stunball. that's simple escalation, and it sucks. First: What's to stop your players from workign for that force 16! stunball eventually? Then you shoot for the force 17, and eventually people start cheating and getting stupider, the game breaks down. It is the simplest and least effective countermeasure known to man. Counter it creatively. Use the massive wall of drones, too many to hack. Use technology to counteract stun damage. Use wards. Think of the game like Judo, you don't use force to oppose force, you redirect the force where you want it to go. |
...excellent comment and analogy.
Yeah I got wrapped up in that sort of thing in one campaign because of an abusive and disruptive player (where I finally dropped a Prime NPC on the team who had a Negotiation pool = nearly one 36 ct brick of dice, without using edge). While it defused the situation for the moment it didn't solve the underlying issue. However, with some players even doing the creative approach doesn't always work as they cry foul on you the GM for "setting them up". That is when you have to step OoC to deal with the matter.
Hammer them down with 3-5 cyborgs. They are virtually unhackable, cannot be targeted by Mana spells, and have an OR of 4 +. Nasty nasty things.
In case anyone is interested, this thread is where people hammered into me that AoE spells effect targets behind you even if you aren't looking that way. At the time I started out with the theory that your spell only worked on the guys you were looking at, but that opinion was universally shot down.
Thanks fortune! 
Edit for clarity.
So you could hit a geezer round a corner in a corridor with an Indirect Sepll aimed at a location.
But you culdn't do the same with a Direct spell.
Makes sense if you look at thier names.
Now all SR has to do is sort out the IWIN/TEHSUX binary existance Direct spells have.
Edit for clarity.
So you could hit a geezer round a corner in a corridor with an Indirect Sepll aimed at a location.
But you culdn't do the same with a Direct spell.
Makes sense if you look at thier names.
Now all SR has to do is sort out the IWIN/TEHSUX binary existance Direct spells have.
It's been mentioned already but largely ignored, why in the hell doesn't the lights shut off, installed flashpacks trip, thermo smoke rise from the vents, all trigger the moment security realizes that there is a something in the building that is knocking out sec-guards right and left? It is easy for a corp that controls the enviroment in a building to make it rather hostile to invaders, Mages included.
But then again, personally I refuse to cater to one-trick-ponies, the security consultant who designed the setup doesn't care if some Runner is going to be completely gimped because he or she didn't branch out so neither do I. (Also remember that even if you assume that the corps actually care about whether or not a guard is dead or alive they would be really fragging stupid not to use the big glowing Neon Fingerprint a ( Force 12 ) spell leaves behind to their own advantage.)
Always remember that a good Mage can kill you with her mind, but a GREAT Mage has the wisdom to use her trusty predator instead.
But then again, personally I refuse to cater to one-trick-ponies, the security consultant who designed the setup doesn't care if some Runner is going to be completely gimped because he or she didn't branch out so neither do I. (Also remember that even if you assume that the corps actually care about whether or not a guard is dead or alive they would be really fragging stupid not to use the big glowing Neon Fingerprint a ( Force 12 ) spell leaves behind to their own advantage.)
Always remember that a good Mage can kill you with her mind, but a GREAT Mage has the wisdom to use her trusty predator instead.
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| Always remember that a good Mage can kill you with her mind, but a GREAT Mage has the wisdom to use her trusty predator instead. |
Because a Great mage is smart enough to stun you with his mind and remove his astral signature. A Predator leaves a bullet. A stunned security guard means he's been sleeping on the job.
First off, hello again Dumpshock. It's been a while and I've calmed down now. Came back to have a mooch through the forums and simply couldn't contain myself after reading through this thread. Yes – I've lapsed. :-/
There are a number of issues here as I see it. The basic problem as stated by the GM is that the mage player has found the same optimum strategy for himself in a wide range of situations, resulting in a repetitious game. There are a few assumptions in there as well as possible solutions.
The first is that a mage with Magic 6 is very powerful. Using the 3rd to 4th conversion guidelines, a mage with Magic 6 is equivalent to one with Magic 9 in the old system! A mage with Magic 6 should be able to take down a large number of mundane grunts on an equal playing field. That's not even mentioning the Spellcasting at rating 6 which is that of a master. I'm stating this only because some people consider Magic 6 to be normal and then decide that magic itself is over-powered. I don't think that this is the case in Ddays' game, but it's a valid observation that when you get to this level of power, it becomes much tougher to stop players stomping all over the opposition. If the power level were lower, then Stunball would not be the default option every time. In fact, it would be balanced quite well with its drain as most opposition would remain standing and Stun is less harmful than Physical. The player would certainly use a wider variety of tactics in that case. The problem is not Stunball alone, but Stunball taken to such a level of power that its weak areas become irrelevant.
Looking at the posted stats on this character, I see a well conditioned scarecrow (Bod 3, Str 1) who appears to have done little with their life other than practice throwing spells and has the reflexes of a fighter pilot. It's not all together surprising there are repetition problems with such an obviously min-maxed character. Even the selection of the tradition seems min-maxed toward combat spelling as it's one of only four (out of twenty) that has the initiative enhancing Intuition as a drain stat. I think the problems began here, not with the Stunball spell.
That said, I'm going to assume henceforth that re-calibrating the party power-level is a closed option as this is often resented by players and look at other ideas.
The second assumption that is made in the initial problem is that it is a bad thing for the mage to use Stunball all the time. It is, but note that a Samurai may always use the same gun but we don't try to force the Samurai to use a different gun every fight. Okay, I do try to bring variety here too, with confrontations at different ranges, in areas where larger or smaller guns can be smuggled, if you really want to know... but most people worry far less about the repetitiveness of the samurai. Why is this? That's another question but maybe just as the Samurai finds interest in doing things other than rolling to hit somebody, the mage can find interest in doing things other than rolling to stun things. It's not answering Ddays' question, but it is addressing it – spice the game up with more non-combat tasks. That should be even easier to do with a magician than it is with a mundane.
The third thing, and this is relevant, I think, is the issue of overcasting all the time. Casting a spell at Force 12 is not even possible for most magicians in the world. And that's a drain value of 7! Again for emphasis – 7! Physical! How is that a routine action for the PC? With ten dice to resist drain (which is good), the PC will average 3 or 4 boxes of physical damage each time he casts like this. And being an average, there are times when the mage suffers worse. Compared to the samurai who can happily throw grenades or spray bullets all day long, this is pretty significant.
There are a number of issues here as I see it. The basic problem as stated by the GM is that the mage player has found the same optimum strategy for himself in a wide range of situations, resulting in a repetitious game. There are a few assumptions in there as well as possible solutions.
The first is that a mage with Magic 6 is very powerful. Using the 3rd to 4th conversion guidelines, a mage with Magic 6 is equivalent to one with Magic 9 in the old system! A mage with Magic 6 should be able to take down a large number of mundane grunts on an equal playing field. That's not even mentioning the Spellcasting at rating 6 which is that of a master. I'm stating this only because some people consider Magic 6 to be normal and then decide that magic itself is over-powered. I don't think that this is the case in Ddays' game, but it's a valid observation that when you get to this level of power, it becomes much tougher to stop players stomping all over the opposition. If the power level were lower, then Stunball would not be the default option every time. In fact, it would be balanced quite well with its drain as most opposition would remain standing and Stun is less harmful than Physical. The player would certainly use a wider variety of tactics in that case. The problem is not Stunball alone, but Stunball taken to such a level of power that its weak areas become irrelevant.
Looking at the posted stats on this character, I see a well conditioned scarecrow (Bod 3, Str 1) who appears to have done little with their life other than practice throwing spells and has the reflexes of a fighter pilot. It's not all together surprising there are repetition problems with such an obviously min-maxed character. Even the selection of the tradition seems min-maxed toward combat spelling as it's one of only four (out of twenty) that has the initiative enhancing Intuition as a drain stat. I think the problems began here, not with the Stunball spell.
That said, I'm going to assume henceforth that re-calibrating the party power-level is a closed option as this is often resented by players and look at other ideas.
The second assumption that is made in the initial problem is that it is a bad thing for the mage to use Stunball all the time. It is, but note that a Samurai may always use the same gun but we don't try to force the Samurai to use a different gun every fight. Okay, I do try to bring variety here too, with confrontations at different ranges, in areas where larger or smaller guns can be smuggled, if you really want to know... but most people worry far less about the repetitiveness of the samurai. Why is this? That's another question but maybe just as the Samurai finds interest in doing things other than rolling to hit somebody, the mage can find interest in doing things other than rolling to stun things. It's not answering Ddays' question, but it is addressing it – spice the game up with more non-combat tasks. That should be even easier to do with a magician than it is with a mundane.
The third thing, and this is relevant, I think, is the issue of overcasting all the time. Casting a spell at Force 12 is not even possible for most magicians in the world. And that's a drain value of 7! Again for emphasis – 7! Physical! How is that a routine action for the PC? With ten dice to resist drain (which is good), the PC will average 3 or 4 boxes of physical damage each time he casts like this. And being an average, there are times when the mage suffers worse. Compared to the samurai who can happily throw grenades or spray bullets all day long, this is pretty significant.
| QUOTE (Ddays) |
| And really, a drain of 7 is like 3 damage with an edged resist roll. So my mage can get 2 or 3 of these off each session without significant risk. |
If you take 3 damage two or three times in a session, the character is on 6 to 9 boxes of damage. That in itself is a big risk.
The fact that the player regards this as not a problem suggests to me a few things. The first is that the player may be trusting you not to take the same shots at his character when he's badly wounded as he is when he's in perfect condition. It's good to show some leniency as a GM. It's bad if the player alters their character's behaviour to something unrealistic in expectation of it however.
The next thing that it suggests to me is that players have a too much certainty in the progression of the adventure. I.e. they think to themselves something like: “First combat, second combat, climactic combat, nuyen.� The player may feel comfortable in damaging himself again and again knowing that its all just ticks on paper and full healing time will be allowed at the end of the “adventure.�
I don't really have a typical game, but one thing that tends to be the case is that opposition and length of the scenario is variable according to the PCs actions and also factors they aren't aware of. They certainly don't find it comfortable to be severely injured at the end of a run (they don't even like little injuries). What if the drop-off is a double cross? What if their getaway goes wrong and they end up in a running shoot out with Lonestar? What if the GM springs the next adventure on them when they haven't had time to heal up (oh, yes – I do this)?
There's also a parallel with Edge usage as you mention an “edged drain roll.� I notice that the character sheet that you posted later on lists an Edge of 3 but you mention it is frequently spent on drain rolls for overcast Stunballs. I remember a long conversation we had on Dumpshock a while ago where someone kept insisting that Possession was overpowered. The GM's mage player was accustomed to “whipping up a Force 7� as needed and it turned out that the GM was refreshing the Edge pool multiple times a session. Consequently his game was turning into a manga. Edge is a way for GMs to adjust the Indiana Jones level of their game and it's quite important to tone. If the player feels comfortable burning lots of edge on routine attacks, it might be something to look at. Again, my players use their edge for special occasions and I like it like that.
Now I can already hear Ddays' fingers on the keyboard, I think, so I'll get on with practical examples and ideas of how to make Stunball the non-optimal strategy.
The first thing has been said by lots of people, but I have to say it again anyway. That is the degree of preparation the PCs seem to have before each combat, spacing themselves out, etc. I don't know how this is happening, but there have already been lots of good ideas posted on how to give the opposition some smarts and the definite first thing to try is some of these.
The next thing is confined spaces. It doesn't matter if you have the time to spread out and plan if you don't have the space. Most office buildings should provide the option to bring about this restriction. At the very least, site security should have the ability to co-ordinate an attack from multiple directions. But you can also go for more unusual environments. Have you ever:
- Had a gun-fight whilst clinging to the service ladder in a disused elevator shaft?
- Had to deal with a hybrid merge ant-spirit in the narrow confines of an underground nest, where you can barely move and the thing comes out of the ground three feet in front of your face and the rest of your team are backed up behind you in the tunnel?
- Had a subtle duel take place in the Aztechnology Pyramid shopping centre when two mortal enemies suddenly chance upon each other but neither dares to attract the attention of the arcology's security force?
- Had the traitor who is leading you through the compound suddenly double-cross you and turn on you right in your midst while her allies spring their attack?
- Had the possessed director of the company's wife lead the charge of the security services at the party?
These scenarios demand other tactics than an overcast Stunball. For example, the confined spaces in the ant hive made indirect spells more useful. You could hurt people you couldn't see, In the shopping centre show down, Control Thoughts and Magic Fingers become the order of the day.
As well as varying the deployment and terrain, you can interfere with the roles people play. Fine – the hacker deals with the drones. But that's so easy to nix its almost insulting to suggest ways. What if the hacker, jacked into the corp's security network, reports that a Steel Lynx is on its way around the corner. Calmly the character hacks into the Steel Lynx's node, only to find that an enemy hacker is residing in that node. Now the character is engaged in desparate cyber-combat to stop the enemy from raising the alarm and putting the entire system on alert, but that leaves the rest of the characters (including the mage) to deal with the oncoming drone(s).
Likewise, you can split the party. Yes – everyone who has ever DM'd a game of D&D has a conditioned dread of this, but in Shadowrun where the players can legitimately communicate and swap plans and maps, it's not an issue. So make a requirement for them to perform multiple things at once – the Samurai has to cut the power in the basement at the same time that the rigger flys the captive out of the compound, etc. Don't force the issue, but let the players work out that its the best way to pull off their mission. Now the mage has to deal with the drones, corp mage, Hell Hound, whatever, all by herself.
In short, if your players are comfortably managing their opposition then you have failed to induce sufficient panic. Jumble things up and apply more severe pressure. You can only use your hammer all the time if your friend with the screwdriver is available to help you out.
Finally, returning to the issue of predictability that I raised earlier, bear in mind that the approach your magician is using is one with limited ammunition. Three or four points of damage every spell? The mage is taking a minor gunshot wound each time. Draw battles and missions out. The reason you think the mage is overshadowing the mundanes, samurai, et al, is because one of the balances on the power of magic is the inability to keep it up or be consistent. In running games that encourage the player to calmly take a few “gunshot wound� level drains as a matter of course, you are removing this balance.
These are some ideas on how to solve your problem. You are looking for some universal fix and even suggesting that the magic system itself is broken. But in fact, there is no universal fix, only a constant attention to variety. You have a PC that is pretty optimised and it's no surprise that they have arrived at what they feel is an optimal tactic. Even though you see Stunball as the inevitable Go To tactic, there are other Go To tactics the player could have come up with and which we'd be having the same conversation about. Truthfully, with the power level of the character, there are any number of ways that he can hopelessly outclass a bunch of mundane security guards. It's just going to happen. Maybe its time for your group to progress to weirder and more interesting missions. Immerse them in the world of crime, or a campaign arc against a secretive ant hive. Throw in an elf in face paint if you want.
But accept that this character is far too optimised to be challenged by a straight shoot-out with mooks. It's not as if a samurai couldn't have the same effect with grenades and less drain.If all else fails, ask the player why their Buddhist character is marauding through secure compounds in the pursuit of money, blasting honest working security guards with potentially lethal psychic blasts.
I hope this helps,
-K.
Yay knasser is back! Many welcomes!
Many welcomes!
...nice ending statement... 
Welcome back, knasser! We've missed you!
Aye welcome back knasser, we may seldom agree but your posts are always thought provoking.
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toturi, call me crazy, but I'm sure that the differences between going from being awake and fairly alert to K/O in an instant and falling asleep naturally would be easily detected by a biomoniter not to mention security footage so no, I don't see that combo as being anymore stealthy then the mundane options either.
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toturi, call me crazy, but I'm sure that the differences between going from being awake and fairly alert to K/O in an instant and falling asleep naturally would be easily detected by a biomoniter not to mention security footage so no, I don't see that combo as being anymore stealthy then the mundane options either.
*hugs knasser* Glad to see you back, man. You've been missed. Happy .... whatever the hell holiday you celebrate that is closest to now. I don't know where you live so have no general demographics to guess at.
Chris
EDIT: Also, now that I've read it wanted to say I agree with your points. Many of the same ones I was trying to make except you phrased it better. Also, that was a very... verbose and amusing reintroduction to the boards.
Chris
EDIT: Also, now that I've read it wanted to say I agree with your points. Many of the same ones I was trying to make except you phrased it better. Also, that was a very... verbose and amusing reintroduction to the boards.
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| toturi, call me crazy, but I'm sure that the differences between going from being awake and fairly alert to K/O in an instant and falling asleep naturally would be easily detected by a biomoniter not to mention security footage so no, I don't see that combo as being anymore stealthy then the mundane options either. |
No, but it is not anymore unstealthy. And it requires you putting biomonitors on your guards and the data transmission of which is vulnerable to hackers.
Hey Knasser, a lot of good points.
As for the 2 or 3 physical damage, yeah, it's a bit of damage, but considering that a shot from a single mook can be just as deadly, so that makes it easier to justify the cost somewhat.
And I dislike the insinuation that I simply let them slide by thinking they succeeded, I do hit them below the belt, its just that the mage is more scrambling to stay alive than doing the stupidly heroic.
I feel like I have to defend myself as a competent GM at this point, since a lot of why I feel magic is overpowered is instead being converted to why I lack creativity as a GM. Yes, I can indeed challenge my players.
Ex: My team is in a garage specializing in sprucing up rigger vehicles. Problem: deranged technomancer with a host of machine sprites. This fight, my mage ended on the defensive, levitating the party to prevent them getting run over, sammie was blowing up the vehicles with the big guns, the two hacking capable characters trying to end the technomancer's control.
This is what I consider a successful combat, all the characters are there contributing.
Ok, now for my point about stunball.
Suppose I introduce an enemy mage. This said mage is created using the extra bad template, so he spends some additional bp in initiating and upping his magic.
How the hell do I work in the fact that he can cast super stunballs against the PCs without introducing imbalance in combat? The moment I give him enough spellcasting die to have a good chance of overcoming my PC's counterspelling, boom, half the team is pretty much screwed. And no, not using the overcasted stunball is a horrible tactical decision, considering his said enemies are known for being able to fire 2 grenades in a single initiative pass. The 2 or 3 points of drain are no where close to the hurt any of the PCs can be putting on him if they stay conscious. The whole situation just gets even worse if he uses spirits as distractions before combat.
Now my pcs have to split up or get ganked by superfoe, which for most of you GMs seems like a good thing. What if I want a mage combat that doesn't put my team in such dire straits? I don't give him stunball. The other combat oriented spells may kill the PCs, but the drain might be more damage than the NPC would be willing to risk and if the spell does get counterspelled, he may be too hurt to retreat and escape against any drones set on overwatch mode or backup. Not to mention the armor saves against damage the PCs get to make against elemental damage spells. Wouldn't that make it seem that there are some balance issues there?
Something similar to the save for half damage seen in DnD would make for a great way to make the high force stunball less binary in nature.
As for the 2 or 3 physical damage, yeah, it's a bit of damage, but considering that a shot from a single mook can be just as deadly, so that makes it easier to justify the cost somewhat.
And I dislike the insinuation that I simply let them slide by thinking they succeeded, I do hit them below the belt, its just that the mage is more scrambling to stay alive than doing the stupidly heroic.
I feel like I have to defend myself as a competent GM at this point, since a lot of why I feel magic is overpowered is instead being converted to why I lack creativity as a GM. Yes, I can indeed challenge my players.
Ex: My team is in a garage specializing in sprucing up rigger vehicles. Problem: deranged technomancer with a host of machine sprites. This fight, my mage ended on the defensive, levitating the party to prevent them getting run over, sammie was blowing up the vehicles with the big guns, the two hacking capable characters trying to end the technomancer's control.
This is what I consider a successful combat, all the characters are there contributing.
Ok, now for my point about stunball.
Suppose I introduce an enemy mage. This said mage is created using the extra bad template, so he spends some additional bp in initiating and upping his magic.
How the hell do I work in the fact that he can cast super stunballs against the PCs without introducing imbalance in combat? The moment I give him enough spellcasting die to have a good chance of overcoming my PC's counterspelling, boom, half the team is pretty much screwed. And no, not using the overcasted stunball is a horrible tactical decision, considering his said enemies are known for being able to fire 2 grenades in a single initiative pass. The 2 or 3 points of drain are no where close to the hurt any of the PCs can be putting on him if they stay conscious. The whole situation just gets even worse if he uses spirits as distractions before combat.
Now my pcs have to split up or get ganked by superfoe, which for most of you GMs seems like a good thing. What if I want a mage combat that doesn't put my team in such dire straits? I don't give him stunball. The other combat oriented spells may kill the PCs, but the drain might be more damage than the NPC would be willing to risk and if the spell does get counterspelled, he may be too hurt to retreat and escape against any drones set on overwatch mode or backup. Not to mention the armor saves against damage the PCs get to make against elemental damage spells. Wouldn't that make it seem that there are some balance issues there?
Something similar to the save for half damage seen in DnD would make for a great way to make the high force stunball less binary in nature.
| QUOTE (Ddays @ Dec 22 2007, 11:02 AM) |
| Something similar to the save for half damage seen in DnD would make for a great way to make the high force stunball less binary in nature. |
Then implement one and be done with it. Just know that it is a house rule, and one that many people feel is not warranted.
One thing I would like to point out is that - in my world anyway and especially non-hermetic mages, mages don't get to see a catalog with ok... F/2+4 so a major gunshot wound... huh well I mean stunball has less drain and I can just cast it again or kill then when they are unconscious so... it's a better spell to pick at this point.
In my world you aren't going to get the ins and outs of a spell until you really get involved with it unless you are really smart and have a high arcana skill. Keep in mind if they are buying formula online or in a store... selection for combat spells should be limited and they are going to make them sound like the SHIT no matter what spell it is because they WANT you to buy it. Also, since the bad guys can't line the stats up like we can, they shouldn't be able to be like "Hmm, I'll take less drain if I develop this stun spell.... blah blah blah" to develop their own spells unless they have just insane amounts of magical theory, arcana, logic etc. It seems obvious to US that every mage worth his salt should have stun ball, but just because we can look at it and say that doesn't mean THEY can have the same thought process without alot of appropriate background. Also, just make the dice pool big enough that that mage is using some of his vaunted edged rolls for something besides CASTING spells. My players tend to save edge for resist rolls anyway because magic and rockets/grenades are nasty.
As has been said before Shadowrun is often a game of big hammers and glass figurines. Dodging or soaking the long burst from the ares alpha that lucked out and got 4 or 5 net hits, or resisting that influence or control thoughts to activate two or four of your grenades, etc is often much more important than casting or soaking a spell that well. I rarely have players that can reserve their edge for overcasting spells hardcore and then using edge to soak the resultant drain, they usually have to keep the spell for a little lower or just take a larger portion of the relevant drain.
Chris
In my world you aren't going to get the ins and outs of a spell until you really get involved with it unless you are really smart and have a high arcana skill. Keep in mind if they are buying formula online or in a store... selection for combat spells should be limited and they are going to make them sound like the SHIT no matter what spell it is because they WANT you to buy it. Also, since the bad guys can't line the stats up like we can, they shouldn't be able to be like "Hmm, I'll take less drain if I develop this stun spell.... blah blah blah" to develop their own spells unless they have just insane amounts of magical theory, arcana, logic etc. It seems obvious to US that every mage worth his salt should have stun ball, but just because we can look at it and say that doesn't mean THEY can have the same thought process without alot of appropriate background. Also, just make the dice pool big enough that that mage is using some of his vaunted edged rolls for something besides CASTING spells. My players tend to save edge for resist rolls anyway because magic and rockets/grenades are nasty.
As has been said before Shadowrun is often a game of big hammers and glass figurines. Dodging or soaking the long burst from the ares alpha that lucked out and got 4 or 5 net hits, or resisting that influence or control thoughts to activate two or four of your grenades, etc is often much more important than casting or soaking a spell that well. I rarely have players that can reserve their edge for overcasting spells hardcore and then using edge to soak the resultant drain, they usually have to keep the spell for a little lower or just take a larger portion of the relevant drain.
Chris
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Then implement one and be done with it. Just know that it is a house rule, and one that many people feel is not warranted. |
Well, the point was to gather opinions on the subject.
And I can see there are ways to mitigate the fact that magic is powerful. And considering that I play only one session of SR a week, I would prefer to have it well thought out before changing the play experience.
The gist of what I just said was more that while stunball makes more sense for a Buddhist than say.... fireball or one of the other more lethal spells, such is often not the case for the opposition. I cannot expect that most Toxics, Blood Mages, Chaos Mages, or basically most mages that aren't Christian, Zoroastrian, Qabbalistic, Buddhist, etc. would find that stunball is the best fit for them. Especially sec mages, because if it take a lot of time and money and life force to learn a spell then if they get a Direct Damage spell at all I would imagine it would be Powerball because that can at least get drones and such as well. Of course there are other arguments against it, but anyway, I am digressing again.
My point is that with the exception of some logic tradition mages that are cold bastards and can make a decision involving changing/parting with/binding part of their life experience/soul/whatever the hell karma is on a cold blooded consideration of his knowledge of potential spell effectiveness, the difficulty of disrupting body patterns, and the burnout such effort would leave on his body.... well most mages would choose what fits their personality, and that is often not stunball.
Chris
My point is that with the exception of some logic tradition mages that are cold bastards and can make a decision involving changing/parting with/binding part of their life experience/soul/whatever the hell karma is on a cold blooded consideration of his knowledge of potential spell effectiveness, the difficulty of disrupting body patterns, and the burnout such effort would leave on his body.... well most mages would choose what fits their personality, and that is often not stunball.
Chris
| QUOTE (DTFarstar) |
| The gist of what I just said was more that while stunball makes more sense for a Buddhist than say.... fireball or one of the other more lethal spells, such is often not the case for the opposition. I cannot expect that most Toxics, Blood Mages, Chaos Mages, or basically most mages that aren't Christian, Zoroastrian, Qabbalistic, Buddhist, etc. would find that stunball is the best fit for them. Especially sec mages, because if it take a lot of time and money and life force to learn a spell then if they get a Direct Damage spell at all I would imagine it would be Powerball because that can at least get drones and such as well. Of course there are other arguments against it, but anyway, I am digressing again. My point is that with the exception of some logic tradition mages that are cold bastards and can make a decision involving changing/parting with/binding part of their life experience/soul/whatever the hell karma is on a cold blooded consideration of his knowledge of potential spell effectiveness, the difficulty of disrupting body patterns, and the burnout such effort would leave on his body.... well most mages would choose what fits their personality, and that is often not stunball. Chris |
I respect that notion, I'm just pointing out how an encounter changes when a mage has stunball versus an elemental spell. The same tactics apply, but the mage with the elemental spell has a much harder time since he can't lay down a near lethal smackdown first turn if he gets the drop on the characters.
And before there's side points about smoke grenades, spirits on overwatch, drones, and other tactics that the PCs can use to defend against the mage, or the fact that anything getting the drop on the PCs can cause them a world of hurt, I'll remind the community that the defense discussion is not the point of the topic.
I think the binary nature of spells unfairly weighs stunball in terms of power, and it would be almost stupid for a PC not to take the spell. A lot of you disagree by stating that there are good ways to counter any strategy, and while that is true, it doesn't really address the issue at hand.
There was a suggestion of increasing drain to the level of elemental spells. The different mechanic should be "worth" as much drain as the elemental effect.
A somewhat harsher solution: make the whole group of spells work on the astral only. There are elemental effects to cause stun, it´s closer to armed combat and therefore inherently more balanced. You might want to lower the drain a bit.
As to how a team can stop the bad super mage... depends. Having a mage with counterspelling and Shielding and Shielding focus stops offensive magic. And if your player knows what he is doing and continues on his path (YAY Knasser! Nice analysis of tthe mage), you will be looking at several grades of initiation and an unchanged magic attribute soon - he will be able to protect his team, making him even more vital.
A somewhat harsher solution: make the whole group of spells work on the astral only. There are elemental effects to cause stun, it´s closer to armed combat and therefore inherently more balanced. You might want to lower the drain a bit.
As to how a team can stop the bad super mage... depends. Having a mage with counterspelling and Shielding and Shielding focus stops offensive magic. And if your player knows what he is doing and continues on his path (YAY Knasser! Nice analysis of tthe mage), you will be looking at several grades of initiation and an unchanged magic attribute soon - he will be able to protect his team, making him even more vital.
It seems to me that the issue with effectiveness is that combat spells deal base damage equal to their Force.
Other spells, like Confusion, have an effect that is strictly proportional to the net hits scored. Stunball with 1 net hit is more effective than Confusion with 2. And it has lower drain.
A better fix might be reducing the base damage for combat spells to 1/2 Force + Net Hits or even limiting them to only net hits.
Other spells, like Confusion, have an effect that is strictly proportional to the net hits scored. Stunball with 1 net hit is more effective than Confusion with 2. And it has lower drain.
A better fix might be reducing the base damage for combat spells to 1/2 Force + Net Hits or even limiting them to only net hits.
| QUOTE (Clyde) |
| It seems to me that the issue with effectiveness is that combat spells deal base damage equal to their Force. Other spells, like Confusion, have an effect that is strictly proportional to the net hits scored. Stunball with 1 net hit is more effective than Confusion with 2. And it has lower drain. A better fix might be reducing the base damage for combat spells to 1/2 Force + Net Hits or even limiting them to only net hits. |
This actually raises another point, just how obvious is it that you are under the effect of certain spells?
Stunball is called a "sleep spell" and if my guard dozes off, how do I know if its because he got stunballed or just slacking off on the job?
Stunball is a combat spell. I'd figure it rather thoroughly knocks around anyone hit by it. A troll hitting you with his fist does damage comparable to some stunballs - that's hardly gentle. The only way to wake someone who has been stunballed to unconsciousness is by healing the damage or other medical means. So I figure it is fairly violent. Targets who take too much damage suffer knock down and biomonitors would probably show a wicked spike.
A true sleep spell might be a mental manipulation that causes the target to fall asleep, but they can then be awakened normally. A health spell that induces suspended animation might do the trick as well.
A true sleep spell might be a mental manipulation that causes the target to fall asleep, but they can then be awakened normally. A health spell that induces suspended animation might do the trick as well.
| QUOTE |
I feel like I have to defend myself as a competent GM at this point, since a lot of why I feel magic is overpowered is instead being converted to why I lack creativity as a GM. Yes, I can indeed challenge my players. Ex: My team is in a garage specializing in sprucing up rigger vehicles. Problem: deranged technomancer with a host of machine sprites. This fight, my mage ended on the defensive, levitating the party to prevent them getting run over, sammie was blowing up the vehicles with the big guns, the two hacking capable characters trying to end the technomancer's control. |
Sounds great. Apologies if I implied that your competency as a GM was challenged, but when you have a character that is as powerful as this mage and as specialised, maybe the only real solution actually is a lot of imagination which is why we keep coming back to it. You're going to have to continue doing things like the technomancer attack so long as that character exists. Hey, at least it gives your GM muscles a good work out.
But I don't feel that you're entirely on the same side as those of us trying to help you. A lot of our suggestions are shot down rather than - "yep, I can use that." If that's really the case, then that's really the case, but reading through this thread I saw a lot of good ideas from people (some of which I'll pinch when my game starts up again : ).
| QUOTE (Ddays) |
As for the 2 or 3 physical damage, yeah, it's a bit of damage, but considering that a shot from a single mook can be just as deadly, so that makes it easier to justify the cost somewhat. |
It might be worth playing up the actual description of this. As you just said, it's equivalent to a minor gunshot wound and it takes some guts to inflict that on yourself. Seriously - take a long needle and push it through the centre of your palm. Pleasant experience? It's less than three or four boxes of physical, I'd say.
I don't know if this will stick with this particular player as it seems he is very focused on the numbers, but I usually like to play up the actual descriptions of overcasting in my game. The players pick up on what they're actually doing to their characters and it's good for atmosphere.| QUOTE (Ddays) |
| And I dislike the insinuation that I simply let them slide by thinking they succeeded, I do hit them below the belt, its just that the mage is more scrambling to stay alive than doing the stupidly heroic. |
Well this is quite different to the impression I had. In this case, it seems like the mage character is being driven to using what he sees as the super spell, just like if you e.g. push a samurai with mook swarms, you always end up with the grenade. Maybe lightening up will free the mage to use more variety. Perhaps you could encourage the mage character to learn more spells by giving him a friendly mentor who'll teach for reduced costs. Is the mage player having fun playing as he is, or is he also bored with Stunball and would like to try something else?
| QUOTE (Ddays) |
| How the hell do I work in the fact that he can cast super stunballs against the PCs without introducing imbalance in combat? The moment I give him enough spellcasting die to have a good chance of overcoming my PC's counterspelling, boom, half the team is pretty much screwed. |
Bad assumption. That's the George Bush approach - when presented with a screw instead of a nail, you're resorting to a larger hammer. Yes, you can pile on the initiation until the Stunball can get past the counterspelling. But counterspelling is extremely effective and is meant to be. Magicians tend to cancel each other out very well. The way past counterspelling without resorting to ridiculous force, is to use Indirect Combat Magic (or more innovative tactics such as spirits and telekinesis). That's one of the things that it's there for. Have the Sultan of Stun resort to a few Lightening Balls instead. (I like elemental Blast effects because it knocks PCs flat on their backs and lets mooks charge them while they're getting up.) But the best thing for you is that it's less of a no-harm / PC's captured effect. A few Guardian spirits scattered through the run and the PC mage may learn to use Indirect Magic as well.
| QUOTE (Ddays) |
| Something similar to the save for half damage seen in DnD would make for a great way to make the high force stunball less binary in nature. |
Too complicated, too hard to predict the effect on balance. If you're going into house rule territory then the simplest approach is to ban direct combat spells. Drop the drain value by a point (or two) for all the remaining indirect spells, for balance. You're left with a magic system that works a lot like mundane combat and damages along a smoother gradient than does the direct combat system.
I wouldn't do that myself, however. When you talk about variety in spells, that's one thing. But you're saying that magic is unbalanced now, and that's something else. I very much feel that it isn't. A samurai can throw multiple grenades every combat turn without worrying about drain at all. And they're very cheap, too. Try some of the suggestions in this thread - look at edge usage, why the mage feels able or compelled to shoot himself multiple times per session, the environments and opposition the PCs come across. I think your problem will go away.
Oh, if I came off as ignoring ideas, I am not. While some of the stuff mentioned here I've used, a lot of is fresh and I'm certainly going to incorporate into future runs, and thanks to everybody who contributed. In fact, I'm specifically not mentioning which ones in case my players are monitoring the topic.
On gunshot wounds, my mage would rather take a nonlethal bullet and save himself from a painful death everytime. And he does roleplay this aspect (bloody nose being the most commonly used and cliche, minor organ trauma, bleeding from his fingernails, etc.).
And you have to remember, I'm not piling on initiation specifically to beat the mage, I'm just making a slightly stronger than pc level mage to compensate for the fact that he's fighting them all off at once. That and extended masking is in my opinion the best bonus to initiation, and a key to keeping your powerful mage from being tracked down by astral signatures.
And in my experience with magical combat, the better mage wins. Magic + Spellcasting is generally higher than Will + Counterspelling and even a single hit means death. I would love if somehow will + counterspelling somehow scaled down damage instead, but I'm afraid of house ruling for good reason. A bad houserule can turn an entire session into a wash.
Indirect spells feel weaker, but the way the damage scales according to armor and toughness is also a lot more fair for the pcs. They can potentially end up badly burnt no matter how high the force is instead of outright dead, whereas they either die or are unscratched from direct spells. It just seems that to me that direct spells are always worth the gamble of unscratched since the drain is so ridiculously low for the power in their hands.
On gunshot wounds, my mage would rather take a nonlethal bullet and save himself from a painful death everytime. And he does roleplay this aspect (bloody nose being the most commonly used and cliche, minor organ trauma, bleeding from his fingernails, etc.).
And you have to remember, I'm not piling on initiation specifically to beat the mage, I'm just making a slightly stronger than pc level mage to compensate for the fact that he's fighting them all off at once. That and extended masking is in my opinion the best bonus to initiation, and a key to keeping your powerful mage from being tracked down by astral signatures.
And in my experience with magical combat, the better mage wins. Magic + Spellcasting is generally higher than Will + Counterspelling and even a single hit means death. I would love if somehow will + counterspelling somehow scaled down damage instead, but I'm afraid of house ruling for good reason. A bad houserule can turn an entire session into a wash.
Indirect spells feel weaker, but the way the damage scales according to armor and toughness is also a lot more fair for the pcs. They can potentially end up badly burnt no matter how high the force is instead of outright dead, whereas they either die or are unscratched from direct spells. It just seems that to me that direct spells are always worth the gamble of unscratched since the drain is so ridiculously low for the power in their hands.
You could always try giving Direct Spells a Damage Resistance Test.
Just without Armour.
Just without Armour.
Hmm. Each guardian spirit has counterspelling, its own edge attribute and immunity to normal weapons. And severe combat power. Fight by proxy, no real need to initiate.
What kind of drain fix do you prefer?
What kind of drain fix do you prefer?
Keep in mind the LOS stuff we have mentioned. I will agree that with the exception of drones I can never see using lightning bolt over stun/mana/powerbolt, but the elemental damage spells- especially ball lightning- come in really handy sometimes when you can't see them, when you need to disable a vehicle, when you want to nail everyone in a group with at least a -2 DP penalty and potentially knock them unconscious.
Direct Damage spells are great, but if you don't feel you have a more than 50/50 chance of it working - as I often don't in my GMs games- then it is hard to justify when you know that Ball Lightning will do something to everyone in it's radius. I wouldn't be adverse to toning down elemental drain by 1 or 2 to reduce the disparity, but if you lay anymore penalties on DD spells then unless your mage often gets to fight people with no counterspelling and no cover you will see stunball go from his MO to a spell that never sees the light of day. Stunball, and the DD damage spells, are all very much all or nothing, besides damage being that way in their particular situation they are ALWAYS better than the opposition, but it is a very limited situation that generally- in my games at least- doesn't come up that often.
Chris
Direct Damage spells are great, but if you don't feel you have a more than 50/50 chance of it working - as I often don't in my GMs games- then it is hard to justify when you know that Ball Lightning will do something to everyone in it's radius. I wouldn't be adverse to toning down elemental drain by 1 or 2 to reduce the disparity, but if you lay anymore penalties on DD spells then unless your mage often gets to fight people with no counterspelling and no cover you will see stunball go from his MO to a spell that never sees the light of day. Stunball, and the DD damage spells, are all very much all or nothing, besides damage being that way in their particular situation they are ALWAYS better than the opposition, but it is a very limited situation that generally- in my games at least- doesn't come up that often.
Chris
| QUOTE (Ddays) |
| And in my experience with magical combat, the better mage wins. Magic + Spellcasting is generally higher than Will + Counterspelling and even a single hit means death. I would love if somehow will + counterspelling somehow scaled down damage instead, but I'm afraid of house ruling for good reason. A bad houserule can turn an entire session into a wash. |
Not true. Generally at chargen, every modifier and hard/soft cap of magic + spellcasting are the same or worse than that of counterspelling + willpower. There is even a entire category of modifiers that adversely affects spellcasting that counterspelling bypasses - visibility. Sure, you can target with astral but even in the astral there will be some astral visibility mods. Magic is softcapped at 5, so is Willpower but dwarves have generally higher Willpower and you can raise the cap with Exceptional Attribute. Once you initiate, you'd expect Magic>Willpower, but the parity is maintained by the introduction of Shielding.
A baseline plant spirit can counterspell with Magical Guard and prevent glitches(from Counterspelling) from happening using Guard and Conceal your target. You might want to enforce Perception tests to determine if a target can be targeted.
Biomoniters are fairly cheap, especially if you charge your employees for mandatory equipment and are a great way to keep someone from sleeping on the job. And although the data transmission is vulnerable to being hacked, every node that a corp is able to force a Decker to deal with is another chance for the Decker to screw up and be detected.
Also remember that it takes time to clean up the astral fingerprint you left behind from the necessarily high Force spell you just lobbed in order to ensure a one-shot, and I imagine that on most runs time is fairly short since the longer you stay in the building the more likely you are to be detected.
----
Ddays I know that you've stated that the Runners almost always get the jump on the sec-guards and so are able to place the Stunball where it one-shots them all after the Runners take cover (Did I miss where you responded to the idea that with ( Force 12 ) spells the Mage is going to be including himself in the AoE and even with Counterspelling active it only takes one unlucky roll to one-shot himself as well?).
I guess I wonder how that can be, even if you the sec-guards aren't using biomoniters and the team Decker is able to covertly supress the security cameras as well as the various sensors that are designed to detect intruders, the guards are going to drop out of contact and that if nothing else should put the building on alert when they miss checking in.
Still, personally I think that if I were you I wouldn't create a magical threat with the goal of being more powerful then the PC, as it has been pointed out the PC Mage is already one of the best mortal spell-slingers in the Sixth World, he should be really fragging good at what he does, although it looks to me that magic is the only thing the character can do. Instead as has been suggested already remind the Player that ( Force 12 ) spells are seen as Magical Tac-Nukes and any Mage that is capable of throwing them around is a prime canidate for an unwilling extraction and some corp "re-education" in a world where your average Mage only has ( Magic 3 ).
Also remember that it takes time to clean up the astral fingerprint you left behind from the necessarily high Force spell you just lobbed in order to ensure a one-shot, and I imagine that on most runs time is fairly short since the longer you stay in the building the more likely you are to be detected.
----
Ddays I know that you've stated that the Runners almost always get the jump on the sec-guards and so are able to place the Stunball where it one-shots them all after the Runners take cover (Did I miss where you responded to the idea that with ( Force 12 ) spells the Mage is going to be including himself in the AoE and even with Counterspelling active it only takes one unlucky roll to one-shot himself as well?).
I guess I wonder how that can be, even if you the sec-guards aren't using biomoniters and the team Decker is able to covertly supress the security cameras as well as the various sensors that are designed to detect intruders, the guards are going to drop out of contact and that if nothing else should put the building on alert when they miss checking in.
Still, personally I think that if I were you I wouldn't create a magical threat with the goal of being more powerful then the PC, as it has been pointed out the PC Mage is already one of the best mortal spell-slingers in the Sixth World, he should be really fragging good at what he does, although it looks to me that magic is the only thing the character can do. Instead as has been suggested already remind the Player that ( Force 12 ) spells are seen as Magical Tac-Nukes and any Mage that is capable of throwing them around is a prime canidate for an unwilling extraction and some corp "re-education" in a world where your average Mage only has ( Magic 3 ).
The reason I say that magic + spellcasting > will + counter is that generally, pc mages have 5 magic and 4 or 5 spellcasting while most mooks have 2 or 3 willpower + 3 or 4 counterspelling. Versus other runners, that quantity might change.
On visibility mods, if you survive the first round or are ambushing, popping smoke or turning off the lights could really wreck a mage, but if a hacker can force the lights off, he can just as easily force the lights on. And I think the fact that both mods kinda weaken a mage's ability to do combat doesn't force a mage to use a lightningball over a stunball. And lightningball is already awesome because of what electricity does (force unconsiousness and short out drones).
I'm currently liking both lowering the drain on elemental spells a tad to encourage their use and adding a damage resist roll to direct spells based on body. Anybody have any experience with those two house rules?
On visibility mods, if you survive the first round or are ambushing, popping smoke or turning off the lights could really wreck a mage, but if a hacker can force the lights off, he can just as easily force the lights on. And I think the fact that both mods kinda weaken a mage's ability to do combat doesn't force a mage to use a lightningball over a stunball. And lightningball is already awesome because of what electricity does (force unconsiousness and short out drones).
I'm currently liking both lowering the drain on elemental spells a tad to encourage their use and adding a damage resist roll to direct spells based on body. Anybody have any experience with those two house rules?
| QUOTE (Ddays) |
| The reason I say that magic + spellcasting > will + counter is that generally, pc mages have 5 magic and 4 or 5 spellcasting while most mooks have 2 or 3 willpower + 3 or 4 counterspelling. Versus other runners, that quantity might change. |
As you say, mooks. Mooks are just that, cannon fodder - does it matter if the sammy drops them or the magician drops them? It does break the sense of disbelief sometimes, but given that there are no magicians at the higher end of the mook spectrum(as compared to the uberiority and pwnage of the Red Samurai and Tir Ghosts), you'd be fully justified to create a magician NPC, even if he is inferior(though unlikely).
| QUOTE (Ddays) |
| The reason I say that magic + spellcasting > will + counter is that generally, pc mages have 5 magic and 4 or 5 spellcasting while most mooks have 2 or 3 willpower + 3 or 4 counterspelling. Versus other runners, that quantity might change. |
The same thing can be said about Agility/Firearms, or Agility/Appropriate melee skill, or Charisma/Appropriate social skill, or ...
They're called Mooks for a reason. For any key, main, major, prime, or whatever else you may want to call them NPCs though, it isn't necessarily the case that the PCs are so much better, Pool-wise.
Ok, even prime runners, if they're not a mage, are going to have very high spell defense die.
And it's a lot more likely for mages to buff magic + initiation than willpower. While willpower gets capped at 6, magic can go on FOREVER (at least in theory).
So there.
I see what you're saying though.
And it's a lot more likely for mages to buff magic + initiation than willpower. While willpower gets capped at 6, magic can go on FOREVER (at least in theory).
So there.
I see what you're saying though.
I haven't lowered the drain on indirect spells, but me and my friends played with the resistance roll with no armor on Direct damage spells for awhile, but it REALLY killed DD spells for us. Then again I would either disallow a character such as the once shown earlier or he would probably die pretty quick, but I run a lethal shadowrun. Most of the time mages are beating their counterparts by 1 to 2 dice. So adding a resistance roll makes the lower force stunball etc. even LESS usefull I mean, if you are only getting one or two net hits on the test then why ever cast low or you risk it fizzling OR being resisted all the way down.
That being said, the way me and my groups have chosen to interpret indirect spells are the same way we treat grenades and rockets that if you are in the blast radius then each reaction success reduces the DV by 1 meters worth and then you have to soak that much with your normal test. So, DD spells are against people you feel pretty sure you will beat on tests and indirect spells are for those hard ass battles where you need every one and two damage you can get.
Chris
That being said, the way me and my groups have chosen to interpret indirect spells are the same way we treat grenades and rockets that if you are in the blast radius then each reaction success reduces the DV by 1 meters worth and then you have to soak that much with your normal test. So, DD spells are against people you feel pretty sure you will beat on tests and indirect spells are for those hard ass battles where you need every one and two damage you can get.
Chris
Bah, you're right. Adding armor resist would just make the low force stuff even worse to cast most of the time.
I guess I'll just weigh drain differently to favor elemental spells more. Thanks for the insight DTFarstar.
I guess I'll just weigh drain differently to favor elemental spells more. Thanks for the insight DTFarstar.
You can always try the tactic we use at the bottom of my last post, makes grenades, rockets, and indirect spells more deadly and worth it.
Chris
Chris
Sure the team's Decker could force the lights back on, provided that he is able to tackle the system on full alert.
However I still have a hard time envisioning why the sec-guards don't simply take cover, you can not Stunball someone you don't have LOS to while a Fireball will roast him just fine. (And yes, I remember you said your Runners almost always have the element of suprise, well I have a hard time envisioning how that works as well given the level of security that is possible relatively cheaply in the Sixth World.)
However I still have a hard time envisioning why the sec-guards don't simply take cover, you can not Stunball someone you don't have LOS to while a Fireball will roast him just fine. (And yes, I remember you said your Runners almost always have the element of suprise, well I have a hard time envisioning how that works as well given the level of security that is possible relatively cheaply in the Sixth World.)
Depends on the level of training and experience.
Your average 7 nuyen an hour "dude, I watched a video and like...wow...I'm a sec guard!" minion isn't going to act like a well-trained professional because he isn't.
As you move up the corporate rating ladder, the better trained and responsive the personnel are to threats.
All of this, of course, assumes the guards are aware enough to actually take cover before hell comes knocking.
-Siege
Edit: For typos.
Your average 7 nuyen an hour "dude, I watched a video and like...wow...I'm a sec guard!" minion isn't going to act like a well-trained professional because he isn't.
As you move up the corporate rating ladder, the better trained and responsive the personnel are to threats.
All of this, of course, assumes the guards are aware enough to actually take cover before hell comes knocking.
-Siege
Edit: For typos.
| QUOTE (Ravor @ Dec 24 2007, 05:36 PM) |
| ... I have a hard time envisioning how that works as well given the level of security that is possible relatively cheaply in the Sixth World ... |
The PCs catch them all gathered together for a soycaf and donut break ... every time.
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| well I have a hard time envisioning how that works as well given the level of security that is possible relatively cheaply in the Sixth World. |
Yeah, it's really hard to secretly open a warded security door that is covered by cameras, radar and ultrasound, sounds a klaxon when it's not closed and has a guard inside who can see it through an armored one-way window.
I always like the way common semi-clever PC tricks were handled in ForcedRecon. 3rd edition mission SM01-03a. I mean, it's not like these guys are total idiots, everyone knows the "surprise inspection" trick and what to do when someone tries it.
And it doesn't take a large degree of professionalism to get behind cover when you hear a gunshot or know you've got intruders. The world (and especially the US it seems) is full of people who want to think they're SAS types. I would imagine a lot of security guards being gun nuts and running Merc Warrior SIMS often enough. Given the lowish cost of the hardware and the high testosterone levels in the business, it would be more realistic for all of the guards to be toting Predators they bought themselves after Ares latest Penis Substitue ad campaign.
At the very least, I expect most of them grew up playing First Person Shooter games of various kinds.
But at the opposite end, this has reminded me of a game I ran a long time ago (D&D in this case) in which the guards took one look at the heavily armed party coming their way and ran for their lives. It drove the players nuts as they had to chase their opposition all around the dungeon . They kept bursting into rooms where surprised orcs would look at them in horror, turn tail and vanish (ah, encumberance rules!). Of course, by the end of the game, the enemy were re-grouping and ambushing the party. It makes me want to try something similar in Shadowrun just for the look on the players faces. Given their need for stealth, it could be pretty troublesome as well.
| QUOTE (kzt) |
| Yeah, it's really hard to secretly open a warded security door that is covered by cameras, radar and ultrasound, sounds a klaxon when it's not closed and has a guard inside who can see it through an armored one-way window. |
Or better yet, you build that same door without a klaxon. When an unauthorized person opens it, the only thing that happens is a red light goes on in some room somewhere. Minutes click by while the runners do their thing, and High Threat Response is in route. Lowly security guards don't go through the door, they don't engage, they simply barricade. Doors are sealed and guards are positioned behind cover and on held action.
Now, the hacker can spoof the door, get into the security system and start turning it against corpsec but that's what the pc's are supposed to be do. SR is one of those games that can be very easy played one way, and all but impossible played another. If the runners are using good strategy and tactics, if they're good at what they do, then most of the time they will be getting the drop on the opposition. But if they're that good, they'll be taking higher paying jobs against better opposition, so it should equal out. (If the runners can walk right over regular sec guards and are only challenged by the HTR teams, they should probably be raiding the places guared by the HTR-level guards.)
This doesn't really address the OP's concern that the Stun family of Direct Damage Spells are more economically advantageous than the Physical family of Direct Damage Spells. Its a difference of 1 DV, so it seems a little hard to argue that one is fine and the other is game-breaking, but if the group feels that the Stun group makes the Physical group worthless, I'd say get rid of the Stun spells, make the spells simply Manabolt, Manaball and Death Touch, and let the caster decide whether the spell will do Stun or Physical when he casts it with no change in DV. (Although if the problem is the mage is dropping all the opposition in one casting of Stunball, it seems like he'll be doing the same thing with Manaball at one higher DV.)
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