Shadowrun MMO (Dumpshock Vision), Not here (yet?), but what would you want Options

[Nightwalker450]

The FASA got into what people want for a Shadowrun MMO. I'm spinning off this Topic so people can post what they would envision in a Shadowrun MMO. Maybe if there are developers working on this, they'll see this and take notes. (We can hope can't we?)

[Nightwalker450]

(From FASA Forums)

Our Shadowrun got derailed for a couple hours discussing how we thought the Shadowrun MMO should be set up. I thought I'd post some of what I remember of our discussions on here.

-Guild Wars (WoW and City of Heros also use but not as the main) set up, most runs are done through instances.
-This said, we don't want a World, we want Seattle or some other Major City, with effort going into what we have not how big it is. They can do expansion Hong Kong later if they want.
-Many Instances would be able to Randomly Generate (Maps, Goons, etc.) for the basic Extraction, Wet Work, basic scenario runs. This results in more instances for less work.
-City of Heros style contacts, ie Johnsons as well.
-Triple Layer world, Physical, Astral, and Matrix, characters would be able to perform and view the different levels. Most Matrix could be done without entering the actual Matrix Layer (ie AR), but for hacking enter Matrix World.
-At times, have no Jobs available except for a single "On the Run", that would basically be Lone Star is after you or such and you will have to perform a series of tasks to loose the heat. Probably some type of "Karma Cap" similar to Final Fantasy XI's.
-Parts of the on the run might require you to get rid of particular items that have been compromised.
-Getting high end gear would be an instance in itself, possibly stealing from a company. With the costs being paying the contacts, blackmarket for the information.
-Death during a mission effectively would remove you from the mission (Luckily SR has quick stabilization/First Aid rules already in place to get you back on your feet, just remove the 1 try per wound and we're good), ie you receive no further Karma for the mission other than completion if your team still completes and reward for the same reason
-Safehouses for teams! Customizable again in City of Hero's style.
-Personal Pads, to store drones/vehicles things that aren't easily put into your pocket, or at least you shouldn't be seen regularly on the street with. Upgraded with Lifestyle investments! (You're monthly RL payments get you Squatter Lifestyle )
-Drones basically summoner style pets, unless you jumped into them.
-Yes we want vehicles! I don't know how to pull this off to make people happy, and keep realities in check. Some vehicles would be go anywhere (skates, skateboards, hoverboards...), Larger vehicles would need to go to your pad, or possibly have instances be within the space of a city block, so you could park in the instance. Or if the instance involves a chase you need a car for it.
-Factions (Gangers, Runners, Lone Star, Doc Wagon) completely different style of instance, perhaps these would be sets of instances available so you could act as one or any of these based on reputations. Start out as ganger, and develop into different role depending on which instances you do.

On Drops
-Very limited carrying capacity, larger pad, and safehouse storages.
-Diablo II style carrying capacities, larger items result in less capacity
-Add a weight restriction as well.
-Can loot practically all goons for ammo/weapons.
-Most Nuyen is gained from the instance runs payout. Most gear is bought, or crafted. Similar to Final Fantasy XI. Black Market Auction Houses.
-Equipment should be very fluid, we're runners not investors. Very rarely should we become attached to an item, we need to be able to ditch it when the heat is on. This is a very FPS aspect, if you're out of ammo, loot and hope they have the type you need, or ditch your gun and steal the security guards.
-Mages will be on the Nuyen train as well if they need to get materials for spells (not standard SR, but needed here for balance)
-Cybered, have cost of cyber repair added on to your medical costs.
-Hackers... Fry the commlinks, or even just the software, like Cybered they need to get their comms repaired at times.
-Make Lifestyle Increases look very tempting, spiced with costs of repairs, to keep Nuyen from piling up. Pay your contacts once in a while.

End result is a FPS, with the MMO flavor of reputation, equipment, and Karma. You develop a character instead of being thrown into a 30 minute arena with guns. We're on the side of we want the Shadowrun world, not an MMO as exists now.

[nezumi]

Pink mohawks, electric guitars, spandex and spray paints. And no fraggin' commlinks! And no elves either. Dandelion-eating, panty-waisted fruits.

IF they were to do an MMO, I think the most awesome way to do it is basically have the corporations create jobs, which have a set amount of money available to spend. In some jobs (like being a Johnson) you pocket the difference. In others (security designer) you get the same pay regardless, and the money available for security gear is ONLY for that. Anyway, so these jobs are set up. Jobs that aren't taken can be taken by NPCs to a degree (i.e. designers do it), but the salary gradually goes up, naturally replicating a genuine capitalist environment. Jobs would include stuff like being a Johnson, rigging up a secure network, creating corporate facilities, etc. This allows people to be creative, like second life, within reason (since there are clear goals which must be met and limits on what they can use in their creations). Ultimately though, it frees up the designers and makes the whole world seem more free. The computer would have a criteria to determine successful designs, and those with better designs get more reputation and are hired for higher profile jobs later on.

So for instance, at the beginning there are 8 corps offering jobs for facility architect. Each is paying 10-50k, and has 100-200k to spend on that gear. People take the jobs, create their designs, thereby making several 'maps' for each corporation. As the game picks up steam, some companies continue to offer only smaller deals, but big mega-corps like Ares increase the size of their contracts. They start paying 50-100k or more, with millions of nuyen in their budget, but only hire designers who have successfully scored lots of 'points' on previous designs.

The designers then actually know the maps and likely put back doors in. That makes them valuable to people of other jobs, and gives them an 'in' on the streets, plus a second method of income and a lot more fun when they're set on a run involving their map. Meanwhile the computer will shift through different facility maps for different runs or other purposes, and a determined runner can actually find out the name of the designer of a given facility. Over time older or less successful facility maps are deleted, keeping things fresh, especially as new security equipment is made available.

You have PC Johnsons. They're given a set amount of money and a goal they need to achieve. They can go about it however they want, as long as certain conditions are met. If they decide to pocket the change and try for the job themselves, that's their option, although if they fail, it reflects a lot more poorly on the J because he's lost plausible deniability.

People say that the problem with an SR MMO is that it requires so many NPCs, so many maps and so on, without their seeing lots of use. The solution is simple, just like it is in real life; outsource it. I'd MUCH rather spend time designing an entire level I know other Shadowrunners will have to work through rather than spend time building a chair or whatever you do in WoW.

Oh yeah, and make sure there's a Punk Rocker 'job'.

[Kagetenshi]

Ewww, instanced missions…

~J

[DireRadiant]

[Thanee]

[Kagetenshi]

[nezumi]

Just to be clear, 'instanced' dungeons are ones which are pre-generated, whereas non-instanced aren't? Having not played enough dungeon games to really appreciate the difference beyond all the negative comments I've read here, why is one preferable over the other?

[Thanee]

There is also the reason, that you sometimes want to tell a story with a small group of heroes, not a huge mass of them, of course, partially to allow everyone to shine and be in the center of the story sometimes, but the other two (lag and interferance by other players) are the primary reasons for instances (at least according to wikipedia ;)).

Bye
Thanee

[Thanee]

[Kagetenshi]

[Demonseed Elite]

Dark Age of Camelot had plenty of non-instanced dungeons. Which isn't to say they were better than instanced dungeons, but it was certainly possible, hardware-wise and player-wise.

[nezumi]

Huh. Learn something new.

If anything, I would say go with a pseudo-instanced dungeon - The computer doesn't render anything inside the Ares building if no one is in there (or maybe just the lobby or something). If anyone enters the 10th floor of the building, a floor is generated. If two people randomly enter the 10th floor, they both get the same random floor and can meet each other, however if one is on the 10th and the other on the eleventh, the floors are separate and don't really interact. If a job requires going to the 33rd level of said building, that level is generated before the mission. Anyone who goes to the 33rd floor then gets the same floor, with all its defenses, which in cases where multiple people are pursuing the same run they may run into each other, or you may get a run which has already been completed by someone else, leaving nothing for you to do. Since there are hundreds of buildings with hundreds of floors (none of which have to be especially huge), you can have quite a few instanced maps simultaneously, but people can jump from their instanced map to someone else's.

Or is that just random generation of non-instanced maps?

Under the current rules, matrix combat would almost necessarily have to be instanced maps. Astral combat would almost necessarily have to be non-instanced, with most buildings warded.

[tete]

[QUOTE=Kagetenshi,Dec 20 2007, 06:45 PM] [QUOTE=nezumi,Dec 20 2007, 01:38 PM]
The disadvantage is that you never meet anyone else inside. [/QUOTE]
I would say thats an advantage when your doing a mission. The last thing I was to do is sit around in Renraku waiting for Deus to spawn.

[Nightwalker450]

The idea of instanced is so your Johnson in effect only hires one team for the run. And likewise you're not hired for a run thats already been done. Waiting for spawns just sucks, likewise when you're hired to go after Ares you don't want to instead find another runner team camped out to stop other runner teams, unless...

Another idea that I forgot about till now, that had come up in my groups original discussion.
-Mixed Instances, PvP... The Factions of Lone Star or Doc Wagon, could end up doing the same instance as the runners. Lone Star's job is to stop the runners, or Doc Wagons job is to pull out the security guards (or maybe even a downed runner). Or as I started to say above, a runner team is sent in to prevent another runner team from succeeding.

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

I'd really hate to see the mob-train in a non-instanced shadowrun.

Though there would have to be some non-instanced areas: the various malls, bars, streets, etc.

Anyway, my idea was for user-content. Each guild (or whatever they would call it) would get a (new non-canon) corporation whose facilities, defenses, area-of-expertise, etc. would be assembled piecemeal. Missions against that facility would be generated randomly by the server. Players would get to rate the design of the opposing guilds facility (but not their own, if sent against it) - getting enough points from that would, in some to-be-determined way, aid the guild who designed it, as well as promoting that corp up the unranked-A-AA-AAA ladder. Designers who do well enough would get access to the special toys - like bug spirits, shedim, cyberzombies, etc.

Individual runners would also move up the street->runner->prime runner ladder via sucessful runs.

Teams would have to be fairly limited in size relative to other MMORPGs, but you could possibly have an alpha and beta team going at the same time on semi-related tasks (for example: diversion vs. extraction.) You could hire NPCs to fill out your diversion team if necessary (Gilettes!)

[Nightwalker450]

One thing that would be fun to watch is your mage astral projecting or likewise hacker in full VR. The group of runners standing guard over their limp body as they do their work... And suddenly the comotose person flatlines and they have no idea who or what took them out. Until backup arrives, or Spirits start materializing to tear them apart.

Some missions could be non-instanced, but those would be more like Brawl, or ganger missions. As a runner you'd probably turn down a job if it was high-profile and there were 5 teams doing the same exact thing you were doing. (Smokin Aces anyone?) Johnson's usually pay extra if there is or was another team attempting the job, because it increases the overall difficulty of said job.

[nezumi]

I think you guys are sticking yourself too much to the WoW format.

If you get the players to design security layouts and preplan how the matrix and such interact, it's almost trivial to put a Box in a given safe room in a given map, spawn it up, and give the Johnson the job of "go to map X and get box Y". When the box is gone, the box is gone, that's it, no respawning. Things don't respawn in Shadowrun, so let's avoid using that tool unless we need to.

So let's say we have a server with 1,000 runners of different levels.

The game has 1,000 maps and for fun 50 PC Johnsons, as well as a number of NPC Johnsons.

The computer grabs say 400 of its maps and generates 400 different jobs. It places each map in a different part of a given building, so multiple maps can be in the same building. Inside of each map, the computer places one or more 'boxes'.

The computer then makes the 400 jobs available to Johnsons. The 50 PC Johnsons each get a choice of jobs first, although probably not all 400. They get jobs appropriate to their level, reputation and alliances. They have a chance to 'accept' the job, in which case they get a suitcase of cash to spend as they wish. If they succeed at the job, they keep whatever they don't spend. They can scout out the job before or after accepting it, hire other people to scout it out, etc. They hit the streets and start making calls, selling these jobs to people they know are also of approximately the correct level (the Runners!) The Johnson may be managing several runs at once, if he's up to it. The NPC runners begin releasing the jobs soon after, although at lower pay.

The runners now get these jobs. The jobs are presorted based on their general level of ability. They get the low-down from the Johnson, a chance to negotiate and so on. They can accept or not. It is possible two Johnsons sell the same job to different parties, or that the same Johnson sells the job to two different parties (although that could take out some of his cut, obviously).

Once enough people accept the job, the NPC Johnsons stop offering it and it comes off the table, leaving the untaken jobs and any new ones generated.

The runners scurry off to do their thing. Since they may or may not be competing against another team, time is of the essence (plus the Johnson may get itchy and cancel the contract if they take too long). Eventually they break in. If the other team got in first, there's no box, and security has been alerted.

When you break in, there are both responses appropriate to that map, plus guards and whatnot dispatched depending on the level. As they get hit, DocWagon may come in (optionally also run by PCs). DocWagon escorts killed PCs out of combat so they can wake up and get back to their lives, now a good deal poorer and with a hit to his rep.

When the job is done, characters get karma based on their survival and whether they completed the run, pay based on whatever the Johnson negotiated, and a boost to their rep based on how well they did. The Johnson keeps whatever he didn't spend, gets karma (although less than if he went on the run himself) and a boost to his rep. The Johnson rates the runners and the runners the Johnson, which makes for an additional reputation boost, representing word of mouth.

A Johnson who regularly hires teams that fail is going to piss off his teams even if he succeeds at his mission, resulting in damage to his rep, which means he doesn't get as good jobs to sell. A Johnson who is too stingy will suffer the same. Meanwhile, runners who are greedy will take a hit to their reps too for cutting into the Johnson's profit. Both sides can kill the other, but obviously that also decreases rep (a pretty major hit, I'd imagine). Middlemen would be a natural evolution in that world.

No respawning. No instances. No need for the devs to do huge amounts of work. As long as there are people who enjoy making maps (and we know there are!) the world generates itself.

[DarusGrey]

I think if people want to make a basis of comparison, a Shadowrun MMO should draw more inspiration from UO than more modern MMOs.

UO was about player justice, lawless land, and controlling territory in it's early days, had no levels, no item curves, and was mainly player driven.

I think thats a lot more what people would want and expect from a Shadowrun game than compared to most modern MMOs.

Focusing on the setting should be the important starting point, and I'd also encourage staying away from the typical run atmosphere of assuming everyone is a shadowrunner, there should be game elements that allow people to be corporate workers, police officers, regular businessmen. Again drawing UO as an example, it was perfectly viable to play the game for years and never enter combat once, and thats something I love about RPGs in general that is sorely lacking since then, and should be a element of a shadowrun mmo.

Obviously shadowrunning is an important part of the setting, but I don't think it should be the focal point of a game like this. I think this should be a sandbox style MMO that allows the player to define what they are in relation to the setting.

[Kagetenshi]

Nezumi's got the idea. Have enough locations, weight things to decrease (but not eliminate) the odds of two simultaneous runs on the same location, and don't explicitly reuse runs while keeping a large enough pool of elements to combine to make runs to make it unlikely that any given run will be duplicated at the same time.

~J

[mfb]

Pirates of the Burning Sea has an interesting system where it basically spawns a story arc for your character, so that the missions (i don't think they're randomized, but the same concept could work on a randomized or semi-randomized mission scheme) are all loosely linked together for your character. the hostage you resuce in one of your early missions turns out to be your long-lost sister; the pirate raider you defeated to rescue her becomes a recurring enemy. stuff like that. the interesting thing is, these characters are not unique to you--your long-lost sister might be some other player's nemesis, and your nemesis might be some other player's long-lost brother.

similarly, if two simultaneous runs on the same location do occur, it'd be interesting to have the game actually build on it--spawn an NPC that's double-crossed both teams, maybe, or offer an alternative reward to teams that work out the conflict to their mutual benefit.

[X-Kalibur]

I've said it before, I'll say it again, I just want a Shadowrun game that is a mix between Rainbow Six, Deus Ex, and maybe a touch of Morrowind/Oblivion but mixed with the Genesis/Megadrive Shadowrun.

[Ed_209a]

My perfect Shadowrun MMO would start with small servers. I would LOVE to see servers sealed off after 100 characters. I don't like having TOO many heroes in the game. I really like City Of Heroes, but there are more superheroes than police on most servers! This would also let you eventually get to know most of the Runner community in your version of Seattle.

Let me start the game walking off the boat from <somewhere> with nothing but starting gear and the comcode for someone who "can get you what you need". I make a quick call to see what apartments are available, and hustle there before I get hassled by the Star or the local fauna.

Give me places to hang out IC. Let me get to know my fellow scumbags in a less stressful setting than a mission. I would like a Sims/2nd Life aspect to the game, if I want it.

I like how City of Heroes constructs their cities. The actual missions are instanced indoors, but you can also get attacked on the street on the way to the mission. Starting the mission with a moderate wound because of some gangers you met on the way would be an interesting complication.

Perhaps a 500x500m map for each neighborhood?

Program in the concealability rules for gear. Having too much weaponry can get you in trouble as often as not enough.

Make legwork useful. Maybe not a 24-hr stakeout of the site, but matrix searches and talking to contacts.

Every so often, maybe every 15 min, AI Johnsons will try to recruit pick-up teams for quick, run of the mill runs. The AI will have an objective, and a difficulty, and will then try to put together an appropriate team. The mission takes maybe 20-30min, with another 10-20 for legwork.

Once you get to the target, the play would be in the Rainbow 6/Splinter Cell type action.

The big missions will go to long-term teams. This is the kind of play we are familiar with in the RPG, and would be the equivalent of supergroups/guilds. The gameplay would encourage players to settle in with a group they work well with as soon as they can.

Death/Jail would be permanent. The reaper/Star shouldn't be too tough to evade, as long as you know when it's time to go. For example, if the Star sees you leaving a building, a stand-up fight is a certain way to lose a character. You will usually get away if you run for it immediately. Similarly, if you take a bad hit in combat, you may go down, but a buddy can drag you to cover and slap a bandage on you to keep you from death.

[Rajaat99]

Oh, I have the best idea! Don't do it. Come on, let's face facts, it would suck. Sure some people would pick it up, but it would be a huge let down. They would have things that have never appeared in canon and they would leave so much out. Just look at the Shadowrun Xbox 360 game.
What would I like to see in a Shadowrun MMORPG? Nothing, I'd like it to never exist.

[Stahlseele]

yes so?
lots of people would probably LOVE to be able to actually Play Shadowrun(not just a poorly made piece of shit game with the name stamped onto it) without needing to find a group of people and bring them in together on at least a weekend where they ALL happen to have enough time for doing a whole run . .