A few thoughts on Max Payne, primal story telling Options

[Mercer]

Gun Control is one of those issues that tends to only be discussed at the extremes. No Guns on one side and All Guns All the Time on the other, and both of those are largely misrepresentations (as most extremes are). Relatively few people are for the immediate seizing of all firearms, relatively few are for the immediate issuing of belt-fed grenade launchers to hall monitors. For every whacked out liberal who wants to ban guns, you can find a right-wing loonie who wants a LAW rocket, and I think they're both crazy.

(This was skewered best on the Simpsons, when Kang was running for president. "Abortions for all!" [Crowd boos.] "Abortions for none!" [Boos continue.] Abortions for some, tiny American flags for all!" [Wild applause.] That said, I agree that a gun control discussion isn't really a General Gaming topic, and I'll respectfully bow out of that part of it.)

I never really got into Max Payne, although I had friends of mine that did. I think a lot of video games touch on the themes of violence, isolation and people with nothing left to lose because one of the main appeals of living vicariously in fiction is getting to experience those things on some level without consequences. Every so often I'll boot up GTA: San Andreas and go on a rampage (although these days I'm just as likely to shoot pool or do an 8-track race). There is a similar feeling in rpg's in general, although in SR there are still in-game consequences for my actions. In GTA, if I don't like the way things are going I can just not save the game.

[mfb]

Max Payne, aside from being totally awesome, is great for its storytelling and character development. it's really cool how they portray Max's internal reactions to the things he's seen and done.

the sequel is even better, i think, in almost every respect. playing through it on normal and then hard is especially rewarding if you haven't read any strategy guides or spoilers.

edit: damn, now i have to install Max Payne 2 again.

[Critias]

[Mercer]

Its a straw man. You're saying you're opposed to forcibly disarming people and leaving them defenseless, except that no one is advocating it. (I could pick some loonie who thinks we rocket launchers should be sold in grocery stores, but I'm framing my debate against the 1% lunatic fringe that even strident gun rights advocates wouldn't ally themselves with. Likewise, you're framing your debate against the lunatic fringe of the gun control advocacy that even gun control advocates don't take seriously.)

[Kagetenshi]

[Mercer]

Nope, just that they're rocket launchers.

If you want a rocket launcher to help you overthrow the government, that's cool. (Perhaps you should work on electing leaders who would make it easier for you to obtain the stuff you need to overthrow them.)

[Kagetenshi]

I suspect you're misunderstanding me because I used a variant of "anarchist" and "resistance against governmental force" in close proximity, but there is a distinction to be drawn between resistance against an oppressive government (current or future! You can't wait until the government actually does need overthrowing to gather arms, not if you want any kind of good result) and simple revolutionary action.

~J

[BlueRondo]

[Wounded Ronin]

[Kagetenshi]

[nezumi]

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[Critias]

[Blade]

I have to admit that, even if I liked the story (and especially the storytelling) I was a little disappointed by the turn of events at the end of Max Payne 2.

[ Spoiler ]

Especially when you discover that Winterson was a bad cop, so you killing her was actually a good thing.

Great games anyway, with some nice mods.

[hyzmarca]

There is really no good reason not to beat the crap out of random strangers and take their wallets. There simply isn't. Masks and gloves are cheap and places with little police presence are plentiful. The chances of actually being caught and arrested are slim to none if done correctly.

Game theory says that we should beat the crap out of random strangers and take their money. We don't because we have these things called consciouses and because we're mostly lazy pansies who'd rather not get our hands dirty. But there exist some people who aren't lazy pansies and who don't see anything morally or ethically wrong with beating people up and taking their money. These sorts of people will mug you because it's the right choice to make.

The organized criminals of Max Payne are those sorts of people, only they're better organized. The only way to stop them from doing bad things to you and taking your money is for you to make the statistical probability of bad consequences arising from such an act too high for them to even contemplate taking that course of action. That or stay out of their way, but you can't stay out of the way forever. As High Noon tells us, the only way to stop bullies is to stand up to them and shoot them in their backs. You can shoot them in their fronts, as well; but shooting them in their backs is substantially safer. Because if you present a very real threat to them, if you can and will hurt them in retaliation, then it will be in their best interests not to beat you up and take your money, a complete inversion of the normal situation.

[Kagetenshi]

Game theory doesn't actually say we should beat the crap out of random strangers and take their money—that's a serious and dangerous oversimplification. Game theory tells us that we should do whatever will result in the best expected result, and that is an absurdly complicated evaluation for most nontrivial situations. In this case, for example, you need to take into account expected monetary value of takings, chance of arrest, expected cost of arrest (for example, a lawyer stands to lose more than a house painter, as even being plausibly involved in such an incident may result in reputation loss, loss of a position if not self-employed, and if convicted of a felony automatic disbarment for the lawyer), and expected resistance. Furthermore, opportunity cost must be taken into account—even assuming that wallets are just lying on the ground, one must find more total money per unit time than one would be able to obtain (adjusted for effort and desirability of the task) at some other lucrative endeavor.

~J

[hyzmarca]

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[Whipstitch]

I dunno, I don't like applying game theory so broadly. People generally minimize risk, not maximize gains due to the stakes involved. Survival is typically the number one overarching goal for the majority of people.