Game level, Why must it be street? Options

[Fortune]

I guess it depends on your definition of both 'heated' and 'extended' :D

[Kyoto Kid]

...just that I've often seen these debates degenerate into flaming and that is what brings down the Wrath of the Mods.

[Riley37]

[Whipstitch]

To be fair, things like Nancy Drew and the Hardy Boys really are an exception rather than a rule, and it's still possible to find well scrubbed characters being trotted out for child consumption every day. For every Tolkein there's been a Howard or Moorecock showing off a contrasting archetype, and Metropolis and Nosferatu are both far older films than any of Shirley Temple's lightweight fluff. A lighter touch is apparently still appreciated in this world, whether it's Hannah Montana or John Travolta in a fat suit. I think a big part of the perception is that it's a lot easier for anyone, including the cynics, to get their work out there. Just imagine if Twain or Ambrose Bierce had their own blogs.

[Glyph]

Even Tolkien didn't fall into a simplistic good vs. evil category. Sure, you had the evil dark lord and all, but you also had allies that distrusted each other, heroes who were tempted and sometimes succumbed, and villains, such as Boromir and Gollum, who were complicated, and even sympathetic at times.

[hyzmarca]

[ElFenrir]

Well, it really does seem street level means different things to different people. When i posted before, i go into it thinking it was ''fighting over a scrap of soy in a dumpster''. Street, i think, after milling it over, is more of an atmosphere(or can be), than a power level). I look at some of the movies, i see very successful characters, but i still don't feel it goes too epic.

But i do meet people who think street is indeed fighting over things on a corner with makeshift clubs. This, i admit, i don't have alot of interest in...most of the time(but sometimes, yes).

I still stand by the idea that balance is the key. Too much of any kind of gaming(unless the whole group REALLY likes it) can lead to stagnation, in my experience.

I think what starts to bother me, is when ANYONE puffs up their gaming style as ''the best''. When the low enders start to pick on the high enders as useless munchkins who are playing wrong. When the high enders start picking on the low enders for never letting their players have any fun. It's all pointless. And no, im not accusing anyone. But i do see it happen(several places). Im actually convinced you can have people throwing dice into their teens, and have it stay ''street'', depending on how you do it.

The current(very sporadic, due to me living an 8 hour flight away from the game) campaign im playing in(started recently while i was in the States at my friend's house) is a great middleground job. My character(former company man Pirate-type, in his mid 30s, worked for corps since he was around 18 to 28) throws around 12-14 dice for his high end stuff, 8-10 in the middle, and 4-6 on the low end. However, he has a looot of skills which he throws good dice for, and our party is around the same. But it still feels rather 'gritty' and 'Shadowrunny' in other words. In a few more sessions(in the summer since that's the next time im flying), ill be popping karma on some things.

I guess in the end, sometimes the dice amounts don't matter, if you have a GM who can paint pictures of the world well.

[Riley37]

[Stormdrake]

I have no problem starting characters on a "street" level but keeping the game there seems rather limiting. Once my characters have reached a certain level of skill they move up the food chain so to speak. This is reflected in the game mechanics where the table rating is used to figure run payouts and their foes. I use it as a lose guideline but there it is. Also I have no problem with a "gritty" game setting. Actually I prefer it but that does not mean that "gritty" and "street" are the same thing. You can and I have run and played games that were epic (ie. Horrors, Great Dragons, CEO's involved and face to face) that were also very gritty in their atmosphere.

[Fortune]

[FrankTrollman]

It hinges on what you think the definition of democracy is. Not an argument people can win.

For some people "representative democracy" is an oxymoron. For others it isn't. And you're not really going to get a lot done persuading people on it.

-Frank

[martindv]

[JonathanC]

[TheOneRonin]

[Fortune]

[JonathanC]

I didn't think they ever defined what the starting BP for normal people is. Where did the 160BP number come from?

[Ryu]

It comes from every attribute average=3. There could be made a point for the mean of the population =2, were everyone might have one or two 4´s.

[Fortune]

[Stahlseele]

[knasser]

[JonathanC]

Oh, okay. In any case, I've always found that PCs made with the standard rules, while perhaps a bit weaker than SR3 PCs, are still miles beyond security personnel, let along Joe blow on the street.

[Ravor]

Yeah, but I place the blame mostly on the fault of DMs and Players who forget that in Fourth Edition, natural dicepools of 6-8+ are supposed to be considered the norm with Runners being slightly ahead of the curve.

Of course, I should disclaim myself by saying that if you are having fun with high dicepool games then more power to you, I however believe that the game's engine breaks once the dicepools start climbing and that it is a bug, not a feature that starting characters can be "world class" and better straight out of the box using the default char gen rules.

[Whipstitch]

I disagree with the "it's a bug, not a feature" bit. Vehemently, in fact, but that's not something I particularly feel like getting into right now.

The big thing is that we agree that for the average person having a dice pool that's even just in the 3-6 range is pretty damn good for every day life. To start with, the majority of tasks won't require a test at all because there's virtually no risk or conflicts of interest involved. Even a big ol' troll doesn't necessarily need to pass an etiquette test to pick up a burrito from Kwik Trip since he's not trying to be anywhere he isn't supposed to be and the establishment exists to seperate him from his nuyen.

Or, let's take Joe Wageslave, a guy who's somewhat inept (2 logic), but hey, he was born into the company and has a set of hands to put to work so let's hook him up with a rating 1 Skillwire so he can come in and chip company owned Rating 1 Industrial Mechanic and Hardware Activesofts and be put to work in the repairs department. We'll give him a nice modern toolkit that's more than adequate for the piddly crap he'll be working on, a cheap pair of company-owned safety goggles equipped with an image link and a matching dirt cheap company owned Meta-Link that costs 300¥ total if you picked it up on the street with a crappy OS and probably costs the corp even less when they buy/produce them in bulk.

All that can easily add up to a dicepool of 6 or more just for a guy who is frankly pretty bad at his job, provided, of course, that he's put into an enviroment that's designed for him to succeed. After all, he can get a bonus die for well-lit and quiet working conditions, another die for having plenty of quality spare parts, and another one to two dice just for having access to plans or AR enhanced reference material. He's no star employee, but he's quite capable of fixing minor equipment malfunctions and refurbishing beat up old commlinks given the time and space to do so, which is all that is really required of many people. Shadowrunners should obviously have more dice than that, since they typically need to do the same jobs ordinary people can do, only better, faster and while people are shooting at them. So looking at it one way, a lot of people and NPCs in my games could be considered "lower powered" and unskilled, but then, I have lower expectations of what it really takes for many people to do their jobs, since let's face it, most of us aren't really pushed to the edge of our abilities on a regular basis.

[toturi]

[Fortune]