 To build a Green Beret..., No, not the silly hat... |
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 Jan 16 2008, 06:55 PM
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#151
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729  |
I wholeheartedly agree. Mages would probably get a huge "Magical Pay" bonus per month. But how big is "huge"? Does that bonus (on top of being on the Officer Pay Scale) bring up a mage to what he/she would be making in the corporate world? I would bet not. Like I said, that SF Commo Sergeant, even with bonus pay would probably be grossing about $65,000 a year. Blackwater will pay him double that. I still haven't seen any reasonable evidence that illustrates why the US Army would pay Mages the same salaries that Corps pay them. |
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Jan 16 2008, 07:02 PM
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#152
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
As opposed to the rest of the world, where everyone thinks the guy with the strange magical powers and ability to make their head explode is just peachy. I don't think the money is what's going to make everyone hate mages. I think it's the magic, or more specifically, the lack thereof in the rest of the population. |
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Jan 16 2008, 07:44 PM
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#153
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
The thing is that every single Spec Force dude, Awakened or not, has the exact same quandary. They can all make shit-loads of money in the private sector (in the Sixth World just as easily as nowadays), and yet there are still lots of people lining up to qualify and serve in those SF units. Money can't possibly be the big motivating factor that you seem to think it is for these people. |
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Jan 16 2008, 07:59 PM
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#154
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
I heard of a concept called "patriotism"... :D
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Jan 16 2008, 08:23 PM
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#155
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 772 Joined: 12-December 07 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 14,589 |
Does anyone have any background or information on non-American Special forces?
Current US Special Forces would be comparable to UCAS, CFS and, more accurately, CAS Special Forces, but I can imagine the PCC or Sioux would have a much more Awakened and less bio/cybered group of Special forces. What about the Israeli Special forces? I can imagine their system is most reminiscent of a "Me-Against-The-World" country like Tir Tairngire. In any event a better sampling of international special forces training might give a more balanced depiction of what a green beret in the future would look like after 70 years of cultural diffusion. After all, there weren't any special forces(at least any we recognize today) 70 years ago. Unless you count the Texas Rangers. And what about officer training in Special Operations? What does a commissioned officer have to do before being considered for a fancy hat? |
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Jan 16 2008, 08:29 PM
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#156
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 772 Joined: 12-December 07 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 14,589 |
After they are done with their service mages may make more money in the private sector, but in the meantime they are getting military training for free which is one of the reasons they are getting paid less. Blackwater...I mean Lone Star, is less likely to hire someone without military training and experience for security than one with loads of it. So most mages in the service are going to be younger and still in training or still serving out their contract, while those in the private sector may be more experienced but have already done their time. Patriotism is great in your 20's, but after a while your number one priority is to feed your family. That's why most Shadowrunners don't have one. |
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Jan 16 2008, 08:35 PM
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#157
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
i don't think there are any other SF's than tir ghosts and the red samurai and the such who have allready been statted out . . at least i did not find anything about mossad and the german equivalent of the seals, our combat-divers/swimers . .
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Jan 16 2008, 08:39 PM
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#158
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
The money argument works the same for everyone though, not just the Awakened. Each and every single member of military Special Forces could make a great deal more money in the private sector. Each of these people are already out of their 20s, and still keep re-enlisting for some reason (other than money).
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Jan 16 2008, 08:39 PM
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#159
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
Not only that, but the strong sense of purpose you feel. Enough money to live and that job satisfaction, combined with quite a bit of adventure to feel, what could many men want more? The band of brothers.
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Jan 16 2008, 08:58 PM
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#160
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Honestly, the only time I had to deal with GS-ranked people while I was in the Army, we treated them like civilians (which basically means be polite as though they were officers, but you didn't have to follow their orders). They didn't wear uniforms, or have any sort of rank insignia. Like I said, they were totally removed from our chain of command. |
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Jan 16 2008, 09:17 PM
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#161
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Well as rare as Magic is, I personally think that most Mages would be channeled towards that as opposed to being put into the actual military itself.
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Jan 16 2008, 09:34 PM
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#162
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Yeah, my bad. I didn't really make my point very clear. For those guys/girls who have Army/Marine Corps/Navy/Air Force on the brain, then yes, regardless of pay, that's the job they are going to do. And Mojo Mike Citizen who has always wanted to be Army SF or Navy SEAL or whatever will do the training and do the job regardless of pay. The point I was trying to make is that the Army (Military in general) will have to RELY on awakened people really wanted to serve to form it's numbers. So if a guy has a hard-on for the military, he will pick it as a career choice. If he doesn't care either way, he is probably going to pick the cushy, well paying job. And you are right, money is NOT the key motivating factor for someone who has a particular desire to serve. But that's ALL you are going to get. In my experience, most of the people that join the Army for active duty fall into one of two categories. #1. "I WANT to be in the Army." These people want to be there (at least before basic training). Most of them will be career military for most of their lives. This is the category that SF people usually come from. And indeed, pretty much ALL of your awakened people that choose to serve will come from this category. And believe me, they make up well less than half the total number of Army personnel. #2. "The Army is a way for me to get something else." It could be a way to pay for college, a way to get some job training, a way to avoid having to join the family business, a way to get away from mom and dad, a way to travel the world (poor branch decision here), a way to just have a life beyond collecting unemployment/living on the street, or something to that effect. These people don't necessarily love the idea of being in the army (though some may grow to), and are using their service as a means to an end. I say it makes no sense to expect any awakened individuals to ever fit into this category. There is just too much opportunity elsewhere. Need money for college? Fuck, any corp worth it's shares will put your through college and probably house/feed you to boot. Want to get away from mom and dad? How does a 1500 sq. foot apt (paid for) and a 6-figure salary sound? Want to learn how to better control/shape your mojo? Again, any corp would be stupid not to provide training. Want to travel the world? Fuck, who needs to rely on your job to provide that when make $150,000k per year? |
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Jan 16 2008, 09:48 PM
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#163
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Maybe. I think there are other motivating factors. Things that may nowadays disqualify a person from service (psychosis and blood lust etc) might be overlooked in Awakened personnel to make up the numbers. Dangerous, but not all that far-fetched. Awakened persons might also be cut some slack as far as qualifications are concerned. Especially if they can demonstrate a means to bypass certain challenges without relying on their physical capabilities. I know this goes against the grain of anyone who has had to qualify for such an elite unit, but we are talking about Awakened people here. This is an asset that is worth compromising to attain. Keep in mind here that I am not really referring to Adepts in any of my posts, as they are a different breed. I am mostly meaning spellcasters and summoners when I talk about 'Awakened people'. I also think that there would be a lot of out-sourcing (as was mentioned above), where a Spec-Ops unit will liaison with a spook mage (or other awakened contact) for a particular job. I just don't see Sixth World Spec-Ops teams being magic-poor, to the point that only one in twelve is Awakened. I think it would be double that, at the least. |
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Jan 16 2008, 09:51 PM
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#164
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
SAS still exists in the 6th world. Iirc the Sioux Wildcats and the Ghosts of TT are SFs too. |
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Jan 16 2008, 09:56 PM
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#165
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
Back in the 'good old days', young delinquents of military age were often given the choice of joining the Army in lieu of a jail sentence for minor infractions (theft, destruction of public property, etc.) A friend of mine ended up putting in 4 years after getting caught stealing a car for a joyride. I don't hear about that happening as much these days, but I could easily imagine the Army recruiting any awakened kids in juvie or jail to help fill out the ranks.
And I expect there would be heavy use of contractor mages for non-combat tasks such as ward maintenance, etc. |
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Jan 16 2008, 10:57 PM
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#166
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Any more than the alternate payscale for physicians or SF guys is? Not many government jobs give you a $100,000 bonus. |
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Jan 17 2008, 07:21 AM
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#167
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Target Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,323 |
I lumped this together as I ran across it. It's solely responses to what I saw that was written, with few original thoughts of my own.
Magic would be an awesome addition to just about everything in the military, and while there would certainly be magicians in Special Operations, I don't think Special Forces would be a place they would be TO&E. If there were numbers to make it possible (a lot more magicians then the book implies) absolutely, but the priorities are elsewhere, so they wouldn't get them unless the could prove a direct need. SF's "job" won't fundamentally change as a result of magic, it's still the same mission, and would be performed in the same manner. I have friends who've been burnt out from getting bounced team to team because they were short on Echos, and there were still over a dozen in the company. Could you imagine being the lone magician and how quick you'd get burnt out with any sort of optempo?
It's "Special FORCES Group", as I mentioned before. Special Operations refers to the community as a whole, including all the boys from the Army, Navy, Air Force, and even the Marine Corps is getting in on some of the action. Just you wait, and eventually NOAA, the Coast Guard, and USPHS will have some "special" teams too. :P
I'm not sure where everyone thinks these fabulous melee skills are coming from. Unless a guy has a hobby, melee skills are going to be no better then average due to training, and with some experience will be slightly above average (it's up to you whether that statistically would result in a higher skill value, I personally wouldn't.) Melee skills are tertiary and have been since the invention of gunpowder.
Delta gets what Delta wants. Comparing them to a "corpsec HTR" team is a lot like comparing Police Explorers to your local SWAT team. Corps would have their own Tier 1 teams.
SEALs don't drive boats. They pay people to do it (Look up "Special Boat Units" and Squadrons.) Those people aren't SEALs, and their sole purpose in life is to get SEALs to and from their place of work. SEALs get a grab-bag of skills as they go down their pipeline, but being well-rounded is one of the fundamentals of special operations training.
Selection is open to everyone in the Army (and the 18X contract, as we discussed before.) While it wouldn't be unlikely for a Combat Engineer MOS to go to qual to be a 18C/Engineer, if he wants to, it is just as possible that person is a former 92Y (company supply guy) or tanker. You get your MOS by aptitude, background, "wish list", and needs of the army--not necessarily in that order. The school teaches what they need to know, regardless of previous training and knowledge.
Air Force Special Operations are different from the rest of the community, and there are a lot of different "special" units. The two that are worth talking about are Pararescue and Combat Control Teams, which when put together are "Special Tactics" teams. They are both speciality units, and while they are very good (PJs are in my opinion, the baddest mofo's in the world, with 22SAS a close second) at their job, it wouldn't change fundamentally, and their communication skills wouldn't be better then a SF Commo Sgt, just different. The Air Force might be the logical place for hackers to go though, if that's what you're talking about, because they seem to be doing all the "cyberwar" stuff.
I don't think you can isolate the community that way. You need to account for all the magicians in the _Army_ and divide them up appropriately. So you don't have 45 SF mages, you have 5,000 Army mages, and you can project who gets them. I think that number is f*cked, personally, because of the balkanization of North American said to have occurred. There are a lot of smaller countries that are all fighting for the same pool of people that would serve in the US Army, now getting to compete with corporations, private security, etc, etc. The Army will try like hell to continue to recruit needed specialists, but just like physicians today there will be a chronic shortage.
I don't think they would qualify. If they had something Group wanted or needed, and the Army would be willing to give them up, they would get them, and they would deploy. It goes against what I believe in, but I think it would be the first thing to compromise if we had something that so blatantly differentiated like that, and was so damn powerful.
I don't see it. People may resent magicians (as it was said before) based on their magic, but I've never run into anyone in the Army who resented a Surgeon for his bonuses. It just won't happen. |
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Jan 17 2008, 09:45 AM
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#168
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 573 Joined: 17-September 07 Member No.: 13,319 |
There's a long tradition of giving perks to healers, and still feeling more gratitude than resentment, with the usual slew of exceptions. Army surgeons get extra pay without drawing much flak for it. If most military mages are also healers, then perhaps they get the same effect.
Tangent: how would training change if your unit had a guy who could routinely heal a sprained ankle or equivalent injury in about 10 seconds? Willingness to risk injury might change, and thus intensity of some exercises, such as jump training. Better to risk the pain and trust the magical healing, and stay sharp, than to be second best in a for-real firefight, eh? How much does the draw of military service depend on who's fighting? By most accounts, most veterans returning to America from WWII were treated as heroes, even though some of them had seen and done "questionable things" (mostly necessary or lesser evils, although not always). Veterans returning from Vietnam got more varied receptions because there was not universal agreement that their mission was good, useful, legal or ethical. (That's a deliberate understatement; stronger versions would distract from my point.) So, do many UCAS citizens see their military as keeping them safe and benefiting the world? Or otherwise? |
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Jan 17 2008, 11:39 AM
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#169
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 |
It probably depends on the individual campaign. In my campaign, the UCAS army dealt with both the Renraku Arcology Shutdown as well as the Chicago Bug Problem very quickly (few days to two weeks, depending on whether mobilisation and mop up operations count). They were working with Renraku and Ares, respectively. They did not let those affairs linger on for months, and while the actual operation was very messy, and they took a lot of losses and inflicted serious collateral damage, the general public sees them as heroes, defending the UCAS, and the world, against monsters and robots.
CAS armed forces also have a very positive image in their own country (and in any other country that is at odds with Aztlan) since they took back part of the occupied Texan territory from Aztlan (again, in my campaign, and with some backup from Ares). Ares, of course, has a lot of PR people working on keeping things this way - if people like the army, it's much easier to get government to pay for more weapon systems for said army, and thanks to the good relations and past shared combat experience, almost all of those new systems will be bought from Ares. |
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Jan 17 2008, 02:38 PM
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#170
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
I'm in general agreement here, and I'm pretty sure I said such earlier in this thread. I would envision the CAS/UCAS Army as having a Thaumaturgical Corps where it dumps all of it's awakened personnel (except physads). And those magical assets would be attached at the Brigade/Battalion and sometimes company level to other units, depending upon their mission. But those mojo-slingers, as a general rule, probably wouldn't be organic to any other unit. However, there might be a permanent Brigade slot for magic specialists (call it Brigade S8, maybe?). However, I very well COULD see magical assets being organic to SF units, at least at the company level. I just don't think your general Army Magical Officer is going to be able to keep up with the guys in an ODA if he isn't trained to do so. And ODAs don't like having attached assets that can't keep up.
Something I've seen tossed around on this board is that the Army would be silly not to have a lot of mages because the opposition is going to have them. What people seem to forget is that the opposition is probably not any more likely to have mages on the payroll than the army is. The Army today doesn't organize around the concept that the enemy is loaded with SpecOps level soldiers, so why would they assume that the opposition is loaded with magic? And I don't think SF will need 1-2 mages per ODA especially since the opposition won't have a 1 in 12 mage to soldier ratio. MAYBE 1 in 100...but probably less.
That's a great point, and one I haven't considered before now. A single SF Company Mage getting bounced between 6 ODAs would be hell for the Mage. And even with the likely lower optempo of something like the CAS Special Forces, it still would lead to quick burnout. That alone might be a good reason for the Army to lower the qualification requirements a bit for those who have magical potential. But that itself opens a whole new can of worms.
My bad. I did mean to say "Special Forces Groups", but fubared it. Thanks for spotting it.
That's another thing I've started to notice with all the research I've been doing. Most of the literature I've read in the past has said VERY little about what SF Operators do BEFORE passing selection, except for the handful of bios on Wps Sgts that were light Infantry. But it does seem that if a lot of soldiers with a particular MOS join SF and end up doing something else entirely. I've recently seen combat medics that become commo sgts, combat engineers that become medical sgts, and light Infantrymen that become engineer sgts. I never fail to leave these boards enlightened in some way, shape, or form. ;-)
The more I think about, the more I agree that my numbers there are probably off. Only 1% of all Army personnel being awakened is probably a bit low. However, I seriously doubt it would be much higher than 6% or 7%...at least for the remnants of the USA.
Of course that number wouldn't be accurate for the 2070s CAS/UCAS military populations. I've been using 2008 census figures for the USA and US Army/Army SF personnel counts just to get a picture of what it MIGHT look like in the 2070s. For example, today you have: ~200,000,000 adults in the United States ~500,000 active duty Army Personnel ~4,000 active duty SF Operators While the numbers aren't going to be the same, I would bet that the ratios are pretty close. The CAS, for example, might have a larger number of active duty army personnel per capita because of the existence of an extremely hostile nation on it's western border...a nation that has already shown it's more than willing to take, by force, sovereign CAS territory. However, from what the SR fluff tells us, the CAS isn't NEARLY as involved in global affairs as the old USA was, so the need to have SF groups scattered all over the world would be significantly less. To me, it's safe to say it all comes out in the wash. According to the 6th World Wiki, the CAS has a nominal population of 105,867,000 people. I would speculate that would give us roughly 35,000,000 adults. Lets say the CAS Army has 3 times the number of soldiers per captia that the old USA had. So that gives us 263,000 active duty CAS Army Personnel. Let's also say that advanced training technology and allowing women into combat arms offsets the downsizing of SF due to less need, so we keep the same ratio of total Army personnel to SF personnel at .008. That gives us roughly 2100 SF operators...about half of what the US Army has today. And honestly, I'd bet there would be less then that. Probably only two full-strength SF Groups in the CAS.
I agree with that. I still don't think there would be enough full mages to have two per ODA...unless of course the raw number of SF Operators is reduced a lot further than the current ratio of SFers to Regular Army pesonnel.
I don't know, man. I think having a less capable operator...one who didn't have the endurance, determination, and physical/mental fortitude to hang with SF Operators just flat won't happen. It doesn't matter that Major Johnny Mojo-slinger is a grade 3 initiate Mage and is flat out brilliant...if the fucker can just barely pass a PT test and has never, ever had to sleep on the ground, I just can't see him being allowed into SF. Making some across the board compromises in selection is one thing...allowing people in who cannot keep up with everyone else is something else entirely. |
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Jan 17 2008, 05:43 PM
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#171
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Maybe. But even with that you are looking at an extra...what, 5%...6% maybe? I doubt that would add a significant chunk of awakened personnel to the Army's roster.
That's a BIG maybe. For general army qualifications, I don't see any Mages getting to slide, mostly because the quals are pretty stinking easy. If you can't pass the PFT, you'll get recycled until you can. The other stuff is really common-denominator type things, and anyone with an IQ of 80 or above and not a paraplegic should be able to do. Concerning SF type stuff...I don't know how much the Army would be willing to compromise on. As far as the physical fitness stuff goes...they might have a "PT Train-up" course that can get mages to where they need to be for the physical stuff. But I just don't see them slacking on the rest of the stuff.
Yeah, I kinda figured as much, but I'm glad you clarified it.
I can certainly see that. And not just with other gubmint mages. I'd bet there would be a lot of civilian contractor mages working with SF, and indeed other branches of the military as well.
I see your point...but no matter how bad the military wants magical assets, there is a very small limit to the number they are going to get. Two full mages per ODA? Not going to happen if you keep the same general ratio of Regular Army to SF. Of course, if you want 2 mages per ODA, and there are only enough mages in SF to provide one per 12, then you downsize the number of ODAs per company. And THAT is certainly feasible given the reduction in areas of responsibility for UCAS/CAS SF. |
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Jan 17 2008, 08:35 PM
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#172
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I thought you'd forgotten about me with all the other activity. :D
I can see your points. I'll have to think a bit before giving a decent response. |
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Jan 17 2008, 08:52 PM
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#173
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Target Group: Members Posts: 28 Joined: 2-October 07 Member No.: 13,500 |
Pilots get a sizeable bonus, as well. |
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Jan 17 2008, 09:10 PM
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#174
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
But I bet it still doesn't bring them anywhere close to what they make in the civilian world. We've already figured out that salary is probably never going to be a factor in someone's decision to join the military, regardless of what the bonus pay might be. Incidentally, if I had decided to become a pilot, I would MUCH rather an employer that gives me keys to the F-15 when I get to work than one that gives me keys to a 747. |
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Jan 17 2008, 09:13 PM
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#175
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Target Group: Members Posts: 28 Joined: 2-October 07 Member No.: 13,500 |
I was just commenting on that whole "bureaucratic " thing. The military has bonus pay scales for lots of career fields and it's really not that big a deal. |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 13th November 2025 - 09:38 PM |
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