The "Game Level" thread has gotten me thinking about dice pools and skill levels, and how the rest of the dumpshock community thinks about what a trained expert looks like on paper.
Having said that, I'd like to conduct a bit of an experiment. I'd like to see what you all think, in terms of stats, a 2070s Army Green Beret (Special Forces) character would look like. This is not a challenge to build the most lethal ass-kicker, or the toughest street samurai. This is call to show what skills/abilities/implants/gear you think such a character would have. There is no right or wrong build, just your opinion based on your games, the power level you play at, and how you think that particular character would look if he/she showed up in one of your games.
Something else that would be neat, but not 100% required, is a short blurb stating your motivation behind the skills/attributes/ware you picked. It would really help me get some insight into your methods.
I'd like the characters to be built as close to RAW as possible, with the following considerations:
-Character is primarily a shooter with an Army Infantry background.
-Character should be capable of meaningfully engaging in all of the following operations: Direct Action, Unconventional Warfare, Recruit/Train/Equip indigenous guerrilla forces, Insertion by Land/Air/Sea, Long Range Recon, and Intelligence Gathering.
-No build point limit. Spend as many points as you think would make sense for this type of character.
-Money is a non-issue. Spend as much nuyen as you think the Government would spend.
-Availability rating is unlimited.
-Skill Groups capped at 6. Individual Skills capped at 6 (or 7 with Aptitude).
-No specializing within skill groups. Since there is no BP cap, there isn't any reason to rank up a group and then break it so you can add specializations.
I think that covers everything. And I will be asking questions...not to be hostile, but to find out more about what made you build your character the way you do. Also, I'm open to any questions/clarifications you may have/need.
Full Version: To build a Green Beret...
Sounds like fun, now I just have to figure out just how advanced I think a green beret is... Maybe I should go through and create a whole list of character: Starting private, trained private, tested/proven private, special forces inductee, special forces member, green beret... something like that. I'm not really familar with the military structure (and know you don't jump from private to special forces so easily, but private is a more encompassing term) but how does that general progression look?
Well, that means no obvious chrome. Typical cost of the the training today is many hundreds of thousands to over a million IIRC, so several million isn't out of line. Typical requirements are that people be smart, physically quite strong, extremely determined and tough. Assuming you are dealing with someone who has been around a while so has had multi-disciplinary training... Hmm.
| QUOTE (Karaden) |
| Sounds like fun, now I just have to figure out just how advanced I think a green beret is... Maybe I should go through and create a whole list of character: Starting private, trained private, tested/proven private, special forces inductee, special forces member, green beret... something like that. I'm not really familar with the military structure (and know you don't jump from private to special forces so easily, but private is a more encompassing term) but how does that general progression look? |
Well, it's pretty close. I'll give you an idea how it generally works with Army Special Forces (specifically the enlisted side).
A guy will start off as a private (E-2) after finishing basic training and Infantry School. He might also go to Airborne School, Ranger School, and/or some other school after that before deploying to his unit. Even after reaching his unit, he will get a chance to attend other schools, and someone who is SpecOps material will probably attend every school he can. The private will then progress on to PFC (E-3), Specialist (E-4), possibly Corporal (E-4 w/leadership responsibilities) or move straight on to Sergeant (E-5). Usually, a candidate for SF selection isn't even considered until he's had at least 5+ years experience and is an NCO (E-5 or higher).
At that point, if the soldier has the experience and recommendations from a senior NCO or Officer (Captain or higher), he can attend SFAS (Special Forces Assessment and Selection). It's 24 days of complete hell. And it's all about survival. A candidate's intelligence, agility and resourcefulness and endurance are all pushed to their limits. The washout rate is pretty high, but if you make it, you move on to the next phase, the "Q" Course.
The Special Forces Qualification Course, or "Q" Course, is a a 5-phase course that trains and tests you in a variety of skills.
The First phase tests your land nav, small unit tactics, and live fire skills.
The Second phase is your MOS (Military Operational Specialty) training. Here's where Commo guys learn how to become SF Commo guys, Combat Engineers learn how to become SF Engineers, and Infantry guys learn how to become SF weapons sergeants.
The Third Phase is called Collective training. Here you learn how to work as part of a 12-man ODA (Operational Detachment Alpha), and do all the nifty shit that SF teams do, like UW, DA, Insertions, etc. This phase is mostly an evaluation of the skills you already have and your ability to use them in a team environment. You also go through "Robin Sage" at this point. Google it...good stuff there.
The Fourth phase is language training. Proficiency in at least one language that is common in your future operational area is required. Often times, the level of proficiency is just a hair below fluency.
The Fifth and final phase is the SERE (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape) course.
If you pass all of that, you officially become an Army Special Forces operator. You are then sent to your unit and receive other training based on what types of missions your unit focuses on.
Your average SpecOps operator is in his 30s and has been in the military for the better part of 15 years.
Hope that helps some.
As for building a character at each level, I'd be glad to help you out and give you some suggestions, but posting all of those builds is a little beyond the scope of this thread. Although I wouldn't mind seeing what you so far.
Ok, I'm going to keep what I have, because I don't like remembering all those ranks. Untrained will be the guy walking into the recruitment office, trained will be after a few months at boot camp, tested will be first taste of real combat (aftering going to whatever school) then a bit of a jump to someone who is being considered for special forces, then a while later when they are in and have performed as special forces, then the final build when they have been promoted from special forces to green beret (or are they the same thing?)
Here is Joe Private *salute*
Working on his next steps right now.
*edit*
Here is Joe Private *salute*
[ Spoiler ]
Working on his next steps right now.
*edit*
| QUOTE (kzt) |
| Well, that means no obvious chrome. |
Why is that?
Well, going off the top of my head what I think a green beret requires for attributes and skills heres what I came up with:
[ Spoiler ]
| QUOTE (kzt) |
| Well, that means no obvious chrome. Typical cost of the the training today is many hundreds of thousands to over a million IIRC, so several million isn't out of line. Typical requirements are that people be smart, physically quite strong, extremely determined and tough. Assuming you are dealing with someone who has been around a while so has had multi-disciplinary training... Hmm. |
You are dead on. These guys have to be able to mix and mingle with the indigenous population and generally keep a very low profile.
And roger that on the requirements.
You are a GO at this station.
| QUOTE (Karaden) | ||
| Ok, I'm going to keep what I have, because I don't like remembering all those ranks. Untrained will be the guy walking into the recruitment office, trained will be after a few months at boot camp, tested will be first taste of real combat (aftering going to whatever school) then a bit of a jump to someone who is being considered for special forces, then a while later when they are in and have performed as special forces, then the final build when they have been promoted from special forces to green beret (or are they the same thing?) Here is Joe Private *salute* [ Spoiler ] Working on his next steps right now. *edit*
Why is that? |
"Green Beret" is the headgear that all Army Special Forces operators wear. In actuality, most of those guys dislike being called "Green Berets". The most frequently heard response from them is "I'm not a fucking hat."
For the purposes of this thread, I consider Green Beret = Special Forces Operator. Once you are in, you are a Green Beret. No further differentiation necessary as far as this thread is concerned.
And as for no "obvious" chrome, it's because these guys have to blend. Obvious cyberware will make you stick out, MUCH more so if you are operating in a 3rd world country. Plus it will make working with the indigs MUCH more difficult.
*salute* Welcome Joe Trained Private!
*edit* Alright, maybe I'll drop the specialisty canadaite down to someone who has been around a while (That e-4 or whatever maybe).
P.S. Is dermal sheathing obvious? Seems like sometimes it says it is sometimes it says it isn't. (Course if your wearing clothing it definetly isn't obvious.)
[ Spoiler ]
*edit* Alright, maybe I'll drop the specialisty canadaite down to someone who has been around a while (That e-4 or whatever maybe).
P.S. Is dermal sheathing obvious? Seems like sometimes it says it is sometimes it says it isn't. (Course if your wearing clothing it definetly isn't obvious.)
Plates definately pretty much always are. Sheaths are less than plates, but different than basic normal skin.
And only if your clothing covers it. Rating 3 dermal sheathing is the whole body.
If you want subtle armor, go with orthoskin.
And only if your clothing covers it. Rating 3 dermal sheathing is the whole body.
If you want subtle armor, go with orthoskin.
As a general rule of thumb I wouldn't go with anything more drastic than the LoneStar SWAT suite seen in Augmentation, which consists of plastic bone lacing, Wired Reflexes 1 (which should be fine provided you turn it off as necessary) and some simple retinal mods which retails for 16k-32k nuyen depending on the grade.
And no offense Tarantula, but examples like yours are an interpretation I've never really agreed with. I've always figured that special forces guys would instead have 4's in most attributes along with the Guts, Toughness and high pain tolerance 1 qualities and a good Edge pool. It helps to be toned, gifted and otherwise blessed with natural talent, but 6s? These guys likely have very high skills and take great care of themselves, but they're not Rambo or Superman nor do they claim to be. Likewise I think skills in the 4+ range in just about all relevant skills is overkill. I've always figured that they'd have 4s and 5s in skills like Firearms, Perception, Athletics, Survival and Leadership but would otherwise have good, solid foundations like 1s, 2s and 3s with appropriate specializations in many, many other skills along with higher ratings in a few select specialties like the vehicle operation, instruction and repair skills. Special Forces guys are valuable for the breadth of their skills and accomplish things through grit, discipline and teamwork tests rather than being superhuman. For things like Leadership and instruction tests you don't always need a double digit dicepool to get the job done.
And no offense Tarantula, but examples like yours are an interpretation I've never really agreed with. I've always figured that special forces guys would instead have 4's in most attributes along with the Guts, Toughness and high pain tolerance 1 qualities and a good Edge pool. It helps to be toned, gifted and otherwise blessed with natural talent, but 6s? These guys likely have very high skills and take great care of themselves, but they're not Rambo or Superman nor do they claim to be. Likewise I think skills in the 4+ range in just about all relevant skills is overkill. I've always figured that they'd have 4s and 5s in skills like Firearms, Perception, Athletics, Survival and Leadership but would otherwise have good, solid foundations like 1s, 2s and 3s with appropriate specializations in many, many other skills along with higher ratings in a few select specialties like the vehicle operation, instruction and repair skills. Special Forces guys are valuable for the breadth of their skills and accomplish things through grit, discipline and teamwork tests rather than being superhuman. For things like Leadership and instruction tests you don't always need a double digit dicepool to get the job done.
| QUOTE (Karaden) |
| *salute* Welcome Joe Trained Private! [ Spoiler ] *edit* Alright, maybe I'll drop the specialisty canadaite down to someone who has been around a while (That e-4 or whatever maybe). P.S. Is dermal sheathing obvious? Seems like sometimes it says it is sometimes it says it isn't. (Course if your wearing clothing it definetly isn't obvious.) |
A Combat Arms branch US Army Specialist (E-4) has probably been in the Army for 3-6 years. These guys are generally the most experienced of enlisted personnel, though that hardly qualifies them as "Veterans". The really good ones will make Sgt. before 5 years in. Some of them get put in a Sgt. slot (a position like Fireteam Leader) before actually attending PLDC (Primary Leadership Development Course) and getting promoted to Sgt. Those guys will be mostly likely be Corporals (lateral promotion for a Specialist).
As for Dermal Sheathing, I would say that SpecOps would probably avoid that. Worn armor is a lot easier to replace, and can be discarded when damaged. Plus, I remember reading some fluff that unless you are wearing layered clothing, Dermal Sheathing is obvious by the way bunches up when you move in certain directions.
yeah, with not limited ressources i'd rather go for biotech armor . . orthoskin which is more upgradeable and can heal itself at least partly if neccessary. . also MUCH harder to spot
*salute* Joe Proven Private returning from the field.
[ Spoiler ]
I'd had the impression that green berets were cultural specialists and that's part of the reason that JFK was obsessed with them and kept one of their hats on his desk.
Interesting idea. I'm not familiar with Green Beret's so went for something I think would represent British SAS. I don't know if that has given my take on it a slightly more squad-based approach. Some of the posts here are positing more of an "infiltrator" I think, which isn't what I've gone for.
Notes:
As you can see, he's acquired an impressive range of skills in his career. You could easily add some hacking type skills to this character to make a more technically adept character, though this one can carry out some basics. If adding hacking, electronic warfare, etc, I'd probably drop the Firearms group to 3 or 2.
I've fitted an implanted commlink not because it offers great advantage to the user, but because it is useful to command. It can't easily be taken out by the soldier themself and there's no reason they'd necessarily have admin rights to it. You might think the commlink used would be better, but it's pretty good (especially for range). I envisage IC with orders to erase data if compromised.
It was a close call between Wired Reflexes and Move By Wire, but I went with Move By Wire because otherwise I would have had to get Skillwires separately. I think Skillwires are essential for this role. Would otherwise use Wired Reflexes, however.
Willpower might seem a little low. It's a judgement call. This is someone who is conditioned to obey orders regardless of own feelings. I've always figured that has a fairly lowering effect on Willpower.
I consider this character about as good as you're going to get in any fair-sized group. Anyone better than this is going to be appearing in ones or twos at most, unless they're developed NPCs or a swarm of Mantids .
[ Spoiler ]
Notes:
As you can see, he's acquired an impressive range of skills in his career. You could easily add some hacking type skills to this character to make a more technically adept character, though this one can carry out some basics. If adding hacking, electronic warfare, etc, I'd probably drop the Firearms group to 3 or 2.
I've fitted an implanted commlink not because it offers great advantage to the user, but because it is useful to command. It can't easily be taken out by the soldier themself and there's no reason they'd necessarily have admin rights to it. You might think the commlink used would be better, but it's pretty good (especially for range). I envisage IC with orders to erase data if compromised.
It was a close call between Wired Reflexes and Move By Wire, but I went with Move By Wire because otherwise I would have had to get Skillwires separately. I think Skillwires are essential for this role. Would otherwise use Wired Reflexes, however.
Willpower might seem a little low. It's a judgement call. This is someone who is conditioned to obey orders regardless of own feelings. I've always figured that has a fairly lowering effect on Willpower.
I consider this character about as good as you're going to get in any fair-sized group. Anyone better than this is going to be appearing in ones or twos at most, unless they're developed NPCs or a swarm of Mantids
.
| QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) |
| I'd had the impression that green berets were cultural specialists and that's part of the reason that JFK was obsessed with them and kept one of their hats on his desk. |
I would use the term "unconventional warrior" over "cultural specialist". They train to secretly drop a dozen men in behind enemy lines, and 4 weeks later the enemy faces an infantry company appearing from nowhere. Or secretly go in and sweet talk the enemy of my enemy into being my friend.
Contrast this with US Navy SEALS who focus on direct action and reconnaissance missions. (SAS too, I believe)
| QUOTE (Ed_209a) | ||
I would use the term "unconventional warrior" over "cultural specialist". They train to secretly drop a dozen men in behind enemy lines, and 4 weeks later the enemy faces an infantry company appearing from nowhere. Or secretly go in and sweet talk the enemy of my enemy into being my friend. Contrast this with US Navy SEALS who focus on direct action and reconnaissance missions. (SAS too, I believe) |
Oh, I've got a cute anecodote to add to this discussion. Back when I was an undergrad at Cornell University, I knew a guy who was a green beret. At the time I told him about how I'd been considering joining the Peace Corps. He said, "That's like what we do, but without guns". It was funny.
I think Green Berets are going to hav Willpower in the 4 to 6 range. There are few as determined as they are, and that actually is a big part of the difference between soldier dude and specfor dude.
They should probably have a decent instruction skill, since they spend most of their operational time training locals to fight.
As has been said, they should be cyber-light. Cyberware requires maintenance and may break down - you don't want that to happen in the middle of a swampy forest in the middle of nowhere.
Depending on the unit type, though, cyber will take a different focus. Close Quarter specialists (like Delta Force) may go for typical Sammy cyberware - reaction enhancements and the likes, but behind enemy lines types would go with cyber like sleep regulators, synthacardium, etc, stuff to help them survive harsh environments, long walks and long deployment time rather that stuff to help them kill shit, as they will either kill silently with the element of surprise or, well, die regardless of cyber.
They should probably have a decent instruction skill, since they spend most of their operational time training locals to fight.
As has been said, they should be cyber-light. Cyberware requires maintenance and may break down - you don't want that to happen in the middle of a swampy forest in the middle of nowhere.
Depending on the unit type, though, cyber will take a different focus. Close Quarter specialists (like Delta Force) may go for typical Sammy cyberware - reaction enhancements and the likes, but behind enemy lines types would go with cyber like sleep regulators, synthacardium, etc, stuff to help them survive harsh environments, long walks and long deployment time rather that stuff to help them kill shit, as they will either kill silently with the element of surprise or, well, die regardless of cyber.
An important thing to note about these stats is that skill at this level is very perishable. It takes a lot of expensive training to get to these levels, and a lot to stay there.
If the soldier were separated from that training, and wasn't doing it for real in the field, his skill levels could easily drop a point or two, depending on how high, and how active the skill is.
If the soldier were separated from that training, and wasn't doing it for real in the field, his skill levels could easily drop a point or two, depending on how high, and how active the skill is.
Also remember a SpecOp Alpha team consists of 5 men.
1 Commander LT or better
1 Weapon Specialist
1 Commo Specialist
1 Engineer
1 Medic
All of the guys will be specialized in their field of expertise very rightly a rating 6
and cross trained in the other disciplines. The commander eh whatever officers do.
1 Commander LT or better
1 Weapon Specialist
1 Commo Specialist
1 Engineer
1 Medic
All of the guys will be specialized in their field of expertise very rightly a rating 6
and cross trained in the other disciplines. The commander eh whatever officers do.
| QUOTE (Backgammon) |
| I think Green Berets are going to hav Willpower in the 4 to 6 range. There are few as determined as they are, and that actually is a big part of the difference between soldier dude and specfor dude. |
I agree. Special operators worldwide have immense mental endurance. Whether SF, SEAL, Ranger, SAS, GSG9, Spetznaz, or whatever, they all can suck it up and move on better than most people think is humanly possible. Stat wise, I think straight 4s would be believable, combined with that ability to never quit.
Physical fitness lets you score well on a PT test. Mental fitness lets you lug a 100lb ruck through the mountains on 1 MRE a day in near freezing temps for weeks on end.
| QUOTE (knasser) |
| I've fitted an implanted commlink not because it offers great advantage to the user, but because it is useful to command. It can't easily be taken out by the soldier themself and there's no reason they'd necessarily have admin rights to it. It was a close call between Wired Reflexes and Move By Wire, but I went with Move By Wire because otherwise I would have had to get Skillwires separately. I think Skillwires are essential for this role. Would otherwise use Wired Reflexes, however. Willpower might seem a little low. It's a judgement call. This is someone who is conditioned to obey orders regardless of own feelings. I've always figured that has a fairly lowering effect on Willpower. |
I agree on the implanted comlink. It might have a program that activates on command to broadcast its location, so that if your teammate drops and you can't find his (unconscious or dead) body, you trigger his beacon to activate. Also, it will be the Fairlight Caliban rather than an upgraded cheapie, because Fairlight got the sweet deal on the supply contract!
Fluff for Move By Wire suggests that there might be mild ongoing tremors and tics, because the subject spends the rest of their life in a controlled seizure, and that would be bad for the part about blending in with indigenous populations. Maybe at betaware, those symptoms aren't visible.
I'm a stubborn individualist, and I disagree about Willpower. Basic breaks down individual willpower and crushes resistance, which is fine for a grunt that one can order into frontal assault. Along the path to SpecOps, the soldier has actively chosen to become a strong part in a strong machine, and can take pain, sit still in a leech-infested swamp while infiltrating/scouting, and follow orders that are counterintuitive but necessary to the mission. If someone with CHA 4 and Leadership 4 comes along, and gives an idiotic order to a SpecOps soldier, the soldier will try find a way around the order, eg appealing within line of command; if they do obey, it's not because they lost a Willpower test. Do the actual soldiers here agree?
| QUOTE |
| Fluff for Move By Wire suggests that there might be mild ongoing tremors and tics, because the subject spends the rest of their life in a controlled seizure, and that would be bad for the part about blending in with indigenous populations. Maybe at betaware, those symptoms aren't visible. |
i'd probably houserule that this thing comes with a trigger like wired reflexes did/do if it is made for military use . .
| QUOTE (Riley37) | ||
I agree on the implanted comlink. It might have a program that activates on command to broadcast its location, so that if your teammate drops and you can't find his (unconscious or dead) body, you trigger his beacon to activate. Also, it will be the Fairlight Caliban rather than an upgraded cheapie, because Fairlight got the sweet deal on the supply contract! Fluff for Move By Wire suggests that there might be mild ongoing tremors and tics, because the subject spends the rest of their life in a controlled seizure, and that would be bad for the part about blending in with indigenous populations. Maybe at betaware, those symptoms aren't visible. I'm a stubborn individualist, and I disagree about Willpower. Basic breaks down individual willpower and crushes resistance, which is fine for a grunt that one can order into frontal assault. Along the path to SpecOps, the soldier has actively chosen to become a strong part in a strong machine, and can take pain, sit still in a leech-infested swamp while infiltrating/scouting, and follow orders that are counterintuitive but necessary to the mission. If someone with CHA 4 and Leadership 4 comes along, and gives an idiotic order to a SpecOps soldier, the soldier will try find a way around the order, eg appealing within line of command; if they do obey, it's not because they lost a Willpower test. Do the actual soldiers here agree? |
Not necessarily for the SpecOps/GreenBerets. These are guys whom have been in at least 10-15 years. They do not jump at odd orders. Yes they will complete them if it is indeed and order, but will question it.
I was in the 82nd Airborne in Ft. Bragg for many years. I had many buddies both go into the SpecOps and made many long time friends there. These guys are good. Basic for the ARMY at least does not break down your Willpower it does build it up. You learn to be self reliant and yes in the Infantry-arrogant. LOL
You do lose some of any stubborness as you learn to work with everyone. It breaks down walls you never knew you had. It does bring in a sense of Brotherhood with all soldiers.
| QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 9 2008, 04:15 PM) |
| i'd probably houserule that this thing comes with a trigger like wired reflexes did/do if it is made for military use . . |
They still do come with a switch. There is spesific mention when the book is talking about IPs, It is talking about gaining additional IPs and it offers casting the reflex spell and turning on wired reflexes as options.
*edit* Oh, and as to the whole 'soldiers have low willpower because they obey orders' thing. I've got to say that is utter stupid. Just because you obey orders doesn't mean you have no willpower. If you obey stupid orders it still doesn't mean you have low willpower, low logic maybe, but not low willpower.
Think about any famous big bruiser type subordinate you want. Sure, they followed orders, but they often went to extream lengths, forcing themselves to their limits (which requires a large amount of willpower to accomplish). Think about yourself and all the orders you follow on a daily basis: don't kill people, don't steal, don't run red lights, etc etc. Now, since you follow all these things you must obviously have a Will of 1 right? Wrong, you follow them because you believe they are right. Soldiers generally follow their orders because they believe they are doing the right thing, not because they have been crushed into a mindless drone with no free will.
yes, wired reflexes did come with the option of a built in trigger as of SR3 somewhere, i think M&M . . but there is no such thing mentioned for MBW . . it is basically ALLWAYS ON . . whcih explains why it gatheres stress as fast as it does . . which other things only do when damaged . .
| QUOTE (Stahlseele) |
| yes, wired reflexes did come with the option of a built in trigger as of SR3 somewhere, i think M&M . . but there is no such thing mentioned for MBW . . it is basically ALLWAYS ON . . whcih explains why it gatheres stress as fast as it does . . which other things only do when damaged . . |
Quite correct, it is always on, 24/7, as pulled strait from the book
| QUOTE (p40) |
| Move-by-wire users frequently suffer from slight, but uncontrollable, muscle tremors in certain muscle groups when they are at rest, mostly due to errors in the system’s seizure compensation. |
As for wearing out faster then other things... where are you getting that from?
In 3rd ed. The MBW racked up stress points and needed to be serviced monthly.
MBW is the only piece of Cyber/Bio that accumulates Stress points over time even when not being ACTIVELY used . . so first come the shivers, then come the cramps, then come the seizures, then comes a pretty dead body with some twitch-wires . . so if this piece is the only thing gathering stress points on it's own everything else basically just works like it is supposed to forever . . aside from the SOTA Rules silliness . .
Edit:CURSES <.< . .
Edit:CURSES <.< . .
Riley: I'd suggest that the infamous 'breaking down of will' is a temporary state. Soldiers are not mindless zombies. In another game system I'd almost say it was 'willpower damage' that heals naturallly, but can't think of a good shadowrun precedent for that.
Like any other large group of people, there are numbers of individuals and groups of behavior patterns.
So, while as a general rule any soldier given an order will hop to and say 'yes sir!', that doesn't mean they will actually want to perform the order, or do so with any real enthusiasm... in fact in many cases the orders in question will be given a surface polish of 'effort' followed by many hours of 'shamming' and general tomfoolery.
In military thinking, the guy with the high willpower is actually the dude that does obey orders even when unsupervised and when the job is unpleasant (clean out the toilets, private!), and does the job to a high professional standard.
Its the low willpower that has the 'individual' mindset of 'I'm just gonna slack off and not really scrub anything'.
Like any other large group of people, there are numbers of individuals and groups of behavior patterns.
So, while as a general rule any soldier given an order will hop to and say 'yes sir!', that doesn't mean they will actually want to perform the order, or do so with any real enthusiasm... in fact in many cases the orders in question will be given a surface polish of 'effort' followed by many hours of 'shamming' and general tomfoolery.
In military thinking, the guy with the high willpower is actually the dude that does obey orders even when unsupervised and when the job is unpleasant (clean out the toilets, private!), and does the job to a high professional standard.
Its the low willpower that has the 'individual' mindset of 'I'm just gonna slack off and not really scrub anything'.
I once watched a very good documentary on the subject of violence which included an interesting discussion with an officer in the US army, whose responsibility was training new soldiers. He talked in some depth and very candidly about the psychological barriers most people have against hurting or killing another, and what it takes to overcome that. All the techniques that a cult uses to indoctrinate people are used by the US and UK army. And the end result has some similarities as well - most particularly that people come out of the process not merely obedient to those they are told to be obedient to, but proud of their obedience. When I visited the US some years ago, I had a fun conversation with a youngish lad who was going through boot camp at the time (I met him whilst bouncing around the country by Greyhound). He boasted about how he had to clean out the latrine with his bare hands as a punishment. It's almost fascinating in a morbid way to see someone go from "Do this horrible thing for no benefit to yourself - No way!" to "Do this horrible thing - right away, thank you!" From an objective point of view, outside the process, all you can see is someone go from a person who acts according to their own priorities and values to someone who acts entirely according to someone else's priorities and values. That to me is how the low willpower trait comes in.
Of course that's where the simplicity of the Shadowrun system breaks down. All the Shadowrun Willpower attribute measures is someone's ability to endure adversity or resist coercian. It doesn't care whether that ability is stemming from adherance to one's own beliefs or those conditioned into you, just so long as it is there. But conditioning to follow orders is still conditioning and I believe it has a general effect as well. I still remember that soldier cramming himself into a luggage rack to see if he could fit, because I told him to. (true).
Of course that's where the simplicity of the Shadowrun system breaks down. All the Shadowrun Willpower attribute measures is someone's ability to endure adversity or resist coercian. It doesn't care whether that ability is stemming from adherance to one's own beliefs or those conditioned into you, just so long as it is there. But conditioning to follow orders is still conditioning and I believe it has a general effect as well. I still remember that soldier cramming himself into a luggage rack to see if he could fit, because I told him to. (true).
I'm trying to remember when I spoke with an officer in BCT, except to call attention for our CO and get chewed out for not saluting properly.
-Siege
-Siege
Modern training programs also invest significant effort in training soldiers to act independently or in small groups on their own initiative as that is what modern warfare demands. It is an interesting dynamic.
| QUOTE (knasser) |
| If adding hacking, electronic warfare, etc, I'd probably drop the Firearms group to 3 or 2. |
..that would drop him from 'average grunt' to 'completed basic range training' as per skill level table.
Hardly something worth a spec op.
Skill level 3 is average for a usual guy in a profession... and Special Forces Firearm Skill is 5 per table.
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) |
| Modern training programs also invest significant effort in training soldiers to act independently or in small groups on their own initiative as that is what modern warfare demands. It is an interesting dynamic. |
Interesting - what training programs are you thinking of?
-Siege
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) | ||
..that would drop him from 'average grunt' to 'completed basic range training' as per skill level table. Hardly something worth a spec op. Skill level 3 is average for a usual guy in a profession... and Special Forces Firearm Skill is 5 per table. |
Perhaps, but 5 is very high. If you don't keep practicing, then you don't keep the skills. Well not that there are rules for this in terms of character development, but if I'm picking values to reflect what I think someone's ability is then I'll take it into account. Give someone a point in Electronic Warfare and I don't think it's an issue, but if I'm going to be giving someone professional level ability in computer hacking, security and communications, maybe some hardware skills too, that's going to have an impact. Even people who make it into very selective groups such as special forces are not machines. You're talking about having someone who is above professional level in two separate areas. Possible, difficult. I think one area would suffer long-term.
God, I hate that skill table. There often isn't that big of a difference between how a guy who's been through boot shoots and how a special ops guy shoots provided that they're both familiar with the weapon being used. The latter guy MAY be a helluva lot better if that happens to be an area of his specialty, but what he brings to the table isn't just "I shoot better" (which, like I said, in some cases may even be debateable) it's a wide range of diverse skills and the sort of situational awareness that only comes from experience. A talented young guy in the Marine corp may very well shoot just as well with his chosen weapons as any special ops guy out there, but he probably doesn't know a 2nd or 3rd language or have any experience with HAHO/HALO operations.
The skills table explicitly identifies a group of professionals as having above professional levels in multiple areas: Senior managers of areas with an associated skill set - so the lead designer of the Mazda MX-5 for example has above professional skills in leadership/influence and above professional skills in an engineering discipline.
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Jan 9 2008, 08:57 PM) |
| above professional skills in an engineering discipline. |
Actually, no, not really. He may very well have above professional skills, but it's just as likely that he's not really any better or worse than his subordinates at pure engineering but happens to have superior social and management skills, making him the man for the job of overseeing the project and making unbiased decisions about the good of the project. Honestly, being promoted doesn't confer upon you any extra special skills, nor does having special skills necessarily make you an appropriate canidate to pick up new skills in a different area. That's why companies worry so much about the possibility of promoting someone to their level of incompetence and why it's so hard to find and a good Special Ops guy. A Special Ops guy more than anything is versed in a wide array of skills. They need to swim like SEAL, shoot like a Marine, climb like a Ranger, fix things like MacGuyver and teach like Jaime Escalante. That, however, doesn't mean they automagically beat everyone else in their areas of their specialty.
| QUOTE (knasser) |
| But conditioning to follow orders is still conditioning and I believe it has a general effect as well. I still remember that soldier cramming himself into a luggage rack to see if he could fit, because I told him to. (true). |
Sure, but could you get him to do something that was against his values... either his pre-boot values, or his shiny new miltary-issued values? In this case, maybe you could, maybe this guy was the classic easy target for the things which in SR are resisted with Willpower, eg Intimidation or Leadership. Maybe his capacity for obedience was the only thing he was really proud of at the time; I hope that over a few years he developed pride in other things too.
But the OP is on elite soldiers, and they're different from guys in Basic. So far as I understand, and consistent with posts from veterans (including 82nd Airborne which is a well-regarded unit), elite soldiers don't obey orders because they're overwhelmed by someone else's force of personality, they obey orders because units which follow the commander's plan tend to defeat units that argue in the middle of combat. If you try bossing around a Green Beret on a bus, let us know how it goes.
My closest experience is team sports. I'm thinking of a time that my team captain called "Strike!" which in that sport (not baseball) means to switch from sideline defense to midfield defense (or vice versa). Without stopping to evaluate on my own, trusting his call, I did so immediately - and got an interception. Had I hesitated, at all, I would not have pulled off a turnover of possession. Another time, I had a teammate behind me acting as spotter, and he'd tell me to shift right or left, so I was always well positioned, which felt powerful (and was successful). In most situations, having someone behind me giving me orders would trigger my stubborn defiant personality; on the field, it took willpower to keep trusting my teammate and following his directions; uncomfortable, but successful.
Re: CthulhuDreams:
Or that manager has incriminating photos - one of the two.
To derail to the Army -
I think the biggest misconception about the Army is the uniformity. Yes, it exists, yes, we try to dress right dress, but there is a tremendous and tremendously subtle distinction from Soldier to Soldier, unit to unit and branch to branch.
Those distinctions are not particularly obvious to the casual observer, but to someone in the organization, they are more apparent.
You'll always find someone in uniform willing to "snap to" and obey without question. It's the nature of the job to develop that sort of mentality. But at the same time, we don't confer that automatic obedience to anyone, regardless of rank or position. My NCO tells me to do something, I do it - he (or she) has earned my trust and respect that I will obey most, if not all orders without too many questions.
A new officer or NCO giving orders isn't going to get the same automatic response.
And in either situation, if I think an order is wrong or incorrect, given the circumstances ("Soldier, go see if that really is an IED - I want a picture of it for my memoirs"), I can and will say "uh, no. Sir."
-Siege
Or that manager has incriminating photos - one of the two.
To derail to the Army -
I think the biggest misconception about the Army is the uniformity. Yes, it exists, yes, we try to dress right dress, but there is a tremendous and tremendously subtle distinction from Soldier to Soldier, unit to unit and branch to branch.
Those distinctions are not particularly obvious to the casual observer, but to someone in the organization, they are more apparent.
You'll always find someone in uniform willing to "snap to" and obey without question. It's the nature of the job to develop that sort of mentality. But at the same time, we don't confer that automatic obedience to anyone, regardless of rank or position. My NCO tells me to do something, I do it - he (or she) has earned my trust and respect that I will obey most, if not all orders without too many questions.
A new officer or NCO giving orders isn't going to get the same automatic response.
And in either situation, if I think an order is wrong or incorrect, given the circumstances ("Soldier, go see if that really is an IED - I want a picture of it for my memoirs"), I can and will say "uh, no. Sir."
-Siege
| QUOTE (knasser) |
| You're talking about having someone who is above professional level in two separate areas. Possible, difficult. I think one area would suffer long-term. |
No, I'm talking about someone who is no worse than the official grunts at least.
| QUOTE (Magus @ Jan 9 2008, 04:08 PM) |
| Also remember a SpecOp Alpha team consists of 5 men. 1 Commander LT or better 1 Weapon Specialist 1 Commo Specialist 1 Engineer 1 Medic |
No, it's twelve.
One officer - Captain or higher.
Two of each of those four specialties you listed (in case one of them, you know, dies in field).
Two Intelligence & Operations NCOs.
A senior enlisted NCO to serve as de facto XO.
Even SR got this right in the SR Companion.
One thing he should have that I haven't seen noticed is foreign language skills. Many of the Green Berets today at least know Farsi, for obvious reasons. I would think this Green Beret should know a foreign language as well. I suggest that language be of the nationality wherever he is most likely to be deployed or whichever "hotspot" the military is most concerned with.
| QUOTE (Eleazar @ Jan 10 2008, 11:27 PM) |
| One thing he should have that I haven't seen noticed is foreign language skills. |
It has been noted, but it definitely warrants repeating.
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
It has been noted, but it definitely warrants repeating. |
Just saw the TheOneRonin's post. Nice post.
| QUOTE (martindv) | ||
No, it's twelve. One officer - Captain or higher. Two of each of those four specialties you listed (in case one of them, you know, dies in field). Two Intelligence & Operations NCOs. A senior enlisted NCO to serve as de facto XO. Even SR got this right in the SR Companion. |
I did specify the ALPHA Team. A squad is TWO fireteams: Alpha and Bravo.
The other half of the equation is the Bravo Team which Complements and Supplements the Alpha Team.
| QUOTE (Siege) | ||
Interesting - what training programs are you thinking of? -Siege |
This would be what we termed in the 82nd Airborne Division as
LGOPs
Little Groups of Paratroopers
A bunch of 18-25 year olds grouping together in a battlefield scenario after an Airborne Operation that are linking up in small groups heading towards an objective. Armed to the teeth, scared, nervous and with one thought in their heads. IF IT DOES NOT LOOK LIKE ME- SHOOT IT.
I am just wondering where the combat mage would fit into the SpecOps teams? Also would the medic possible be a Mystic Adept specialized in Healing magics?
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