I dare anyone to go to Ft. Bragg and tell a group of Green Berets that their hats are silly.

Oh, I'd argue that reliably accomplishing nothing with firearms isn't that weird. People miss pretty damn often in real life, especially in a firefight when they're concentrating as much on keeping their heads down, keeping track of where everyone is and suppressing enemy positions. In both shadowrun and real life fire fights at close quarters between equally "skilled" grunts with minimal cover are pretty damn deadly on both sides while fighting from cover can result in a stalemate until someone suppresses and flanks. If anything we're just being skewed by the fact that shadowrun gunfire tends to come across as rather crazy accurate since firing off a burst of gunfire is treated as one all or nothing attack for the sake of speeding things up and the fact that a jacked up and cybered Street Samurai tends to be crazy accurate; we get to thinking in terms of a 60-80% chance to hit with any given round being fired with automatics against a hostile target as being normal when the reality just isn't so. There's a lot of situations where simulating reality would likely require firing a helluva lot more and hitting less in the same short combat round.

A 2% hit rate from small arms is considered pretty good in real combat. That means you average infantryman hits someone 4 times going though their 210 round basic load in a multi-minute firefight.

In SR everyone is crazy accurate.

Well, i try to take anything in a game with a grain of salt. They aren't meant to mirror real life. Some come closer than others(SR is one), but the game also has elves, dwarves, magic, dragons, devil rats, giant armadillos that eat motorcycles, krakens, adepts, full AR, laser beams, giant bears with tusks, and i could go on. Even back in SR3, they discussed how full-auto weapons aren't fully real life, because IRL, they are acutally insane in their ROF. If they copied them, anyone could turn any character to swiss cheese in a hurry. So they made it more 'comfy' for the game.

In a game, you're not playing Joe Average unless you WANT to play Joe Average(attributes 2 maybe 1 or 2 at 3, skills 0-1, with a 2 for the one they are specialized in, like the profession).

I'd think Special Forces guys would be well above that. And even above your 'typical shadowrunner', who is built with 400 BPs. Now, i know for a fact that 400 BPs is workable for one of these guys. We've spent 150-170+ on skills MANY times and still had points left over. Assume(ok, the way we do it), a handful of positive and negative qualities(which equal to about +15 on average at the end...say +10, -25, and that's nothing worse than the Sample Characters did), for 415. 200 for Attributes, 10 Edge, 10 Contacts(ok, we also use the Cha x2 Contact Point rule, if not, add a few more points on if you like), and 25 resources. Yep, 170 points left to spend(155 if you don't take any extra negative qualities, or anywhere in between depending), and that's a load to play with. If you decide to keep them at edge 2 if human(a friend of mine had a good point saying that sometimes experienced characters might have lower than average Edge...thinking they may have gained and burnt it over their careers.)


Now, with that many skill points at their disposal(yeah, i understand not everyone uses Cha x 2 contacts, but bear with me for this example, it can be adjusted by a few points), ill allocate some skills. Using my method of +15 BPs aver all(415), and this can run from 170-180(if Edge is not spent).

Firearms group 4(40), or if you prefer a speciality, seperately. More points, but sometimes them's the breaks. If you want a Sniper, Longarms(Rifles) 5(+2), Automatics 2, Pistols(Semi Automatics) 3(+2) for a total of 44 points. Or divided up as you choose, depending. Total: 40-44.

Close Combat group 3. (30 points). Or, again, divided up. Or you might want someone very adept at fighting in close. Say Unarmed Combat(pick style): 4(+2), Blades(Knives) 4(+2), for a total 36 points. Running total: 70-80.

Heavy Weapons: 3-5, depending on your concept.(12-20 points). Running total: 82-100.

Pilot Ground Craft(say Wheeled, unless you want a tank pilot.). 2(+2). Now, there is room for super special forces drivers...but even with 170 you should pick some sort of focus, unless you really want the jack of all trades. 10 points(running total, 90-110).

Perception(Visual) 2(+2). Maybe more for a sniper...id say 3(+2) at least. Running: 100-124.

Dodge(Ranged) 1(+2). 2(+2) if you have some points left. But something here is nice. Running: 106-134.

Athletics Skill Group: 1-2. I'd say a Special Forces guy has some skill here. Again, let it depend what you want. 1 should suffice, in the whole group. 116-154. Getting close now, if you've taken the higher end.

First Aid(Combat Wounds). For a Combat Medic specialist, this could be higher. But low end, 1(+2) should be cool. Total: 122-160.

Infiltration and Shadowing. These are very concept dependent, again. I'd say they should have a minimum of 1(+2), for a running total of 134-172.

Social Skills. I think any Special Forces guy should have Etiquette(Military) of at least 2(+2), if not better, but skill points, again, do run out. Negotiations(any merc should indeed know how to negotiate a contract) at 2 for 8, and Instruction/Intimidation as well, if you can. Now the skills are becoming a bit blurry.

Ok, so here i go. I'll toss out what i would do in my game. Ill be using Cha x 2 contact points, but it doesn't give enough points to really matter. Im basing it off of an actual concept ive had, but didn't get to play yet. I'll keep Availability in check, though, even though we don't use it at our table. Im not buying gear, though, just for cyberware. Also, ill be sticking to Negative Qualities in the books, but we have converted the old Negative Qualities of SR3 over already, and thus have had more to choose from.



The concept here was more of a front line guy; but with enough stealth and little odds and ends to make him useful in other situations. Special Forces guys don't live long if they are total one-trick ponys. Some people here might find this guy a bit excessive...but looking at it, he's not completely overblown. For his highest skill(assault rifles spec), he does throw down 15 dice with a smartlink. Other gun skills go around 11-13. Melees between 9-12 dice. Social skills float between 5-8 dice, throws 9 dice for Urban Infiltration(this can be changed to Wilderness if it fits the concept) and 7 dice for Tailing. He even throws 6 dice to get someone from dying to somewhat stable with combat wounds...he's far from a doc but he can keep one of his men alive for a while. You could even take a few BP from one skill to move it to Leadership.

He's got some negative qualities to work around, but to me, this is around how an experiences Special Forces type would look. Again, depending on type, skills change. I can think that there are many, many combinations...from combat medics, computer experts, stealth ghosts, and the like.

The Combat Medic is an idea ive been wanting to play with for a long time, actually.

[/endless post]

That character would, despite being weaker than what I´d expect of SpecOps, be very wellcome in my campaign, and also fit the present power level well.

Pretty much the whole reason I started this thread is to see what others in the community think in terms of how a 2070 Army Green Beret would be statted out in SR4 mechanics.

I also hoped to be able to share a little of what I've learned over these about these operators and maybe dispel a few myths that some of the community may have about these types of soldiers.

I've actually been fairly impressed with most of what I've seen...a lot of you take this sort of thing seriously, and make sure you get do as much research as you can before posting up stuff. I like that.

Plus this thread has started a few debates that I've quite enjoyed as well. That's always a bonus.

As a disclaimer, I'm writing this post before I've completely caught back up on the thread, thanks Whipstitch.


Anyways, as it has been pointed out, I would build Special Forces with natural dicepools of 6-8 in their primary skills with an occasional high-water mark in the soldier's area of expertize, and having the various cross-training and secondary skills being a couple of points lower.

For cyberware, everyone, even Mages would at least have a datajack in order to make full use of the various 'softs, sure, a program isn't really a substitute for learnt knowledge, but being able to speak and read any langauge known to man as well as being able to call up detailed cultural references, mission specs, ect with DNI that can't be lost or taken away in a situation where the soldier isn't already completely fragged is just too big of an advantage not to use.

I also envision sense-enhancing cyberware as being standard (Especially for Mages.), but not awhole lot of flashy cyber.

*Edit*

Now some of you may be wondering what seperates Special Forces from Soldiers in my games, well the basic answer is that Special Forces have a broader range of training then a normal grunt.

I personally feel that, when dealing with What I Think™ Special Forces Operators should have in terms of skills, it comes out looking something like this:


Core Competencies: (skills everyone has, regardless of specialty)

Athletics (Group)
Influence (Group)
Outdoors (Group)
Stealth (Group)
Close Combat (Group)/or relevant hand to hand skill
Firearms (Group, except for Weapons Sgts)

Perception
Parachuting (all are Airborne qualified)
First Aid
Instruction (all are qualified instructors)
Computer (prob at 1 unless Commo specialty)
Hardware (same as above)
Demolitions (prob at 1...everyone knows how to setup breaching charges and how to demo equipment, Engineers will have a much higher skill)

If I had more time, I'd go into what skillsets would be found with each specialty, but I have to jet.

I leave the ratings of said skills up to the rest of you...

Don't forget:


Heavy Weapons - without it, you can't even handle a grenade launcher or LMG.
Electronic Warfare - it covers everything concerning SigInt for those specialists.

I'm also concerned with how Special Forces will have changed in the Sixth. The Matrix is a reality, and network warfare will probably be as serious a battleground as land or air is today. You're also going to have to address how a Special Operations Company may have changed with the advent of magic.

In general, I agree that a UCAS Special Forces Soldier would probably be a better then average shooter. Perhaps a four in his main category. However, I really see two true differences with special forces. The first is education and approach; special forces would approach a problem with a totally different strategy and capability background then average troops. The second varies by branch:

From what I've read, Rangers are generally exceptional light infantry, and their strength comes from physical and mental hardening, and refined combat skills. In SR4, I would give them higher ranged and melee skills, as well as slightly higher bod and willpower. The pure Green Beret units seem to have a special emphasis on stealth, so I would give them higher stealth stats. Delta Force does a lot of fast-moving urban operations, so they'd probably have cyber similar to a corpsec HTR team. SEALs would have better then average transportation skills (particularly RIBs and like), and probably generally more talent in demolition then their Army counterparts. Finally, I see Air Force as having a lot of communications training and equipment, as well as a good strong Matrix background.

I certainly understand how SEALs could have that reputation since they're basically the direct descendents of the Underwater Demolition Teams and it's likely still a big part of what they do. On the other hand, I would think Special Forces would at some point be trained to a comparable level since they're supposed to be able to do eachother's jobs, and demolitions isn't really a field where it's acceptable to "sort of" know what you're doing.

Especially since the two Engineer Sgts in an ODA probably have the Combat Engineer MOS before they get into SF, which means they have a shit-ton of Demolitions background.

I had forgotten about the SEAL BUD/S stuff. So what you would have is a basic level of demolitions competency across the entire SEAL team, while SF would have a much higher level of demolitions skill isolated to two soldiers per ODA. Makes sense.

So I was doing some research on SF and thinking about the comments made about awakened soldiers in SF ODAs, and found some interesting numbers.

As of today, 2008, the following is true:

The US Army has approximately 500,000 active duty personnel.

Of that 500,000, only ~4000 are active duty Special Forces personnel who have passed SF selection.

Those 4000 people are divided amongst 5 SF groups. (1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 10th groups)

Each SF Group has about 800 SF operators divided up into 3 Battalions.

Each Battalion has about 260+ SF Operators divided up into 3 Companies.

Each Company has about 84 SF Operators divided across 6 ODAs and 1 ODB.

Each ODA is 12 SF operators.


I'm not sure if this is accurate, but I believe that one of the SR books (not sure of the edition) mentions that about 1% of the population is awakened. So given that, in an Army Special Operations command of about 4,000 personnel, you would probably find about ~40 awakened individuals. Now, the percentage that are full-blown spellcasters would probably be much smaller, but lets say, for shits and giggles, that the characteristics that are common in full mages make for a good foundation for SpecOps training. Lets also say that the Army very actively recruits Spellcasters and provides fantastic benefits for those that wish to serve. So I'm going to inflate that number to 45 full blown spellcasters in all of SF. That's just a little more than 1% of the entire SF population.

At 45 mages in SF, that gives us 9 mages per SF Group, 3 mages per SF Battalion, and 1 mage per SF Company.

So most likley, that one mage is part of the ODB team, and must split his field time amongst the 6 ODAs in that company. That seems about right.

I know the Army would love to have more mages, but that just won't happen. There are VERY few people who have the potential to be spellcasters, and probably fewer still who have what it takes to be SF Operators. Put those two together, and the pickings are VERY slim.

The problem with using overall percentage of Awakened in that fashion is that those Awakened individuals are usually going to gravitate toward occupations that are relevant to them. You are not going to find even close to one percent of all garbage men or ditch diggers or Stuffer Shack clerks that are Awakened, but you'll probably find the percentage higher in places like the Military and security.

Well....yeah. I mean, who's going to pay extra for an awakened garbage man?
I was agreeing with you, and elaborating.

I do agree with Fortune for the most part. However, I feel like the Military, and ESPECIALLY SF, will not attract more than it's 1% share of Awakened individuals...specifically spellcasters.

The Army just doesn't offer a comfortable life, and SF is about 100 times less comfortable than regular army life. And when you start expressing a talent at 16 years old that everyone tells you will get you a comfy apartment and a 6-figure salary in the real world, most of those people wouldn't even consider the military.

And going SF is not like joining the National Guard to pay for college. It's a challenging life, and one that you have to be pretty much dedicated to if you want to make it. So not only are we talking about being a part of that ultra-rare subgroup that has awakened potential, but you also have to be as fit as a college or pro athlete, as intelligent as master's degree graduate (I know it's a stretch), as good with people as a state politician or ambassadorial attache', and have as much perseverance as a motivational speaker. Those qualities are hard enough to find in the non-awakened populace...finding them amongst the awakened populace (outside of phyads) will be a serious challenge.

And while 45 full-mages per SF group seems to be a reasonable number, I doubt you would see much more than that, even if there is a need.

As an additional bit of info, I've compiled some statistics of Special Forces personnel ages, rank, and specialty. This was collected from publicly available websites detailing the info on SF soldiers who have been killed in action over the last 5 years. It's not exhaustive, but should give you some idea about how old these guys generally are and what ranks/specialties these guys have.

The Format is AGE: Specialty (Rank)

22: Wps Sgt (Ssgt)
23: Medic (Sgt)
24: Engr sgt (Sgt)
25: Commo Sgt (Sgt)
26: Medic (Sgt)
26: Wps Sgt (Ssgt)
27: Engr Sgt (Ssgt)
28: Commo Sgt (SFC)
28: Medic (SFC)
28: ODA Commander (Cpt)
28: Sr Wps Sgt (SFC)
28: Wps Sgt (SFC)
29: Medic (Ssgt)
29: ODA Commander (Cpt)
30: Engr Sgt (SFC)
30: Engr Sgt (Ssgt)
30: Medic (Ssgt)
30: ODA Commander (Cpt)
30: ODA Commander (Cpt)
30: ODA Commander (Cpt)
31: Engr Sgt (SFC)
31: Engr Sgt (Ssgt)
31: ODA Co (Cpt)
32: Commo Sgt (SFC)
32: Ops Officer (Major)
32: Sr. Medic (SFC)
32: Team Sgt (MSgt)
32: Wps Sgt (Ssgt)
33: Commo sgt (SFC)
33: Team Sgt (MSgt)
34: Engr Sgt (SFC)
34: ODA Executive Officer (CWO)
35: Medic (SFC)
35: Team Sgt (MSgt)
35: Wps Sgt (Ssgt)
36: Intel Sgt (SFC)
36: Operations Sgt (MSgt)
37: ODA Executive Officer (CWO)
38: Intel Sgt (MSgt)
38: ODA Executive Officer (CW2)
38: Sr. Commo Sgt (SFC)
38: Sr. Wps Sgt (SFC)
39: Team Sgt (MSgt)
40: Operations Sgt (MSgt)
40: Sr. Wps Sgt (MSgt)
40: Wps Sgt (SFC)
41: Company SgtMaj (SgtMaj)
42: Team Sgt (MSgt)
43: Commo Sgt (Ssgt)
45: Team Sgt (MSgt)
48: Company SgtMaj (SgtMaj)

Glossary:

want that list in alphabetical, thematical or chonological order? *g*

Because pay in the military is due to rank. Everyone knows how much each rank pays out. It is set in stone. Just because someone is a mage in the military does not get them a separate pay scale. That is one of the foundation stones of the military. Everyone makes the same pay at that pay rate +/- BAQ for the married folks, but even that is the same for the paygrade uniformally throughout the service.

No probably not.

While it is true that everyone at a particular grade gets the same rank, not everyone gets the same pay.

Pilots in the Army, for example, get some 800 dollars a month in 'Flight pay' as long as they fly a certain number of hours. Paratroopers get 'jump pay', which I believe is around 250 a month, but I've been out of that loop for almost ten years.

Mages might get very impressive 'mage bonuses' on top of the reasonably comfortable officer/warrent pay they are bound to be earning.

True, everyone in the military is on the same pay scale but as was pointed out, there are a lot of merit bonuses that can be added to that pay. They tend to be combat or special skill related and I would call being a mage a special skill even if it was an innate rather than trained one.

The other option is a enlistment or re-enlistment bonus. At one point the Navy was offering $50,000 to their nuclear trained sailors to re-enlist. That was approximately 3 yrs pay as an E-5 at the time.

Back in the day when I enlisted into the Marines, they were offer 6 months E-1 pay for combat arms enlistees and 3 months E-1 pay for tech fields as a lump sum upon successful completion of MOS training.

In closing, there are lots of ways that the military could compensate a mage for serving his country they just have to budget it.

Even so as a paratrooper in the Eighty Deuce we were still looked on with envy due to our Jump Pay, can you imagine the stigma to mages for extra huge bonuses for Magic Pay.