Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: To build a Green Beret...
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4
astn
QUOTE (Apathy)
Everybody seems to have different ideas about what skill levels mean, and what the typical skill levels of soldiers are, especially with firearms. My interpretation of relative skill levels is:

  • Hasn't passed Rifle qualification, but understands the basics - Skill 1
  • Qualified Marksman - Skill 2
  • Qualified Sharpshooter - Skill 3
  • Qualified Expert - Skill 4
  • Sniper school graduate - Skill 5
  • Distinguished graduate in sniper school - Skill 6
  • Eric England and Carlos Hathcock - Skill 7

I still think you're over-estimating the average soldier. My personal belief would be expert=3, all others=2. Skill 4 isn't going to be attained by someone in basic training/OSUT without either a lot of natural talent or previous training. The instruction just isn't that good.

On that same topic, sniper school isn't really all that impressive either. What it does do is bring you up to competency in a number of skills that aren't as emphasized otherwise (infiltration, long rifle, even land-nav to a large extent.) You won't graduate without a skill=3 in a number of different areas, and some people may have skill=4 as a result of previous experience + training, but it doesn't make you a superhero.

Military training is often lowest-common-denominator, meaning that it brings troops up to the LOWEST standard possible, which frankly isn't that high. Troops can excel in these schools, but it is often a factor of natural aptitude rather then the quality of instruction, but that's maybe 30% (anecdotally) of the trainees.

QUOTE
That puts the average grad from basic between skill 2 and 3 (and most non-infantry types don't really get much past this since they don't practice that much), and the average experienced infantry grunt between 3 and 4. Most SOF would be 4 or 5. Direct Action groups such as DEVGRU, etc might average 5 or possibly 6. Does this seem reasonable?

I do agree with these figures though.

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (Ryu)
I think while most 5´s are encountered in some kind of special forces group, the opposite is not true. Not just any SF operator has firearms 5.

Indeed, some have 6.

Just the idea 'SFO with less competence than a regular grunt' doesn't fly.

I'm sorry that reality doesn't jive with your world. Two simple facts that you need to accept are (a) Game designers often have no clue about the systems they are modeling and (b) Just putting on a green suit and making a trip to the 'Benning School for Wayward Boys' doesn't make a superhero.

I can understand the reluctance to let go of the published skill table, but it becomes a question of 'Are you looking for statistics that reflect reality or a table created by someone who hasn't done any of the high-speed things he's writing about?" Either way is actually fine, but it's important to recognize which side of the simulation/arcade divide you are trying to create statistics for.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (astn)
I can understand the reluctance to let go of the published skill table, but it becomes a question of 'Are you looking for statistics that reflect reality or a table created by someone who hasn't done any of the high-speed things he's writing about?"

The reality of the game is that with skill levels translated lower than said table, such a character will reliably accomplish... nothing.

Which doesn't fit reality either.
cndblank
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (Apathy)

  • Hasn't passed Rifle qualification, but understands the basics - Skill 1

  • Qualified Marksman - Skill 2

  • Qualified Sharpshooter - Skill 3

  • Qualified Expert - Skill 4

  • Sniper school graduate - Skill 5

  • Distinguished graduate in sniper school - Skill 6

  • Eric England and Carlos Hathcock - Skill 7

So 'Qualified Marksman' means 'Trainee in police academy or military boot camp' and every 'Regular beat cop or military grunt' is a 'Qualified Sharpshooter'?

Because that is the official list:
  • Shot some tin cans with a BB gun a few times. - Skill 1
  • Trainee in police academy or military boot camp - Skill 2
  • Regular beat cop or military grunt - Skill 3
  • Riot control cop, combat veteran, superior regular force (Marines, Airborne) - Skill 4
  • SWAT team, elite military (Rangers, Special Forces) - Skill 5
  • Individual superstars amongst elite forces. Ghost-Who-Walks-Inside, Hatchetman, Matador - Skill 6
  • “Wild Billâ€? Hickock, James Bond, Thunder Tyee - Skill 7


Don't forget that when they give a grunt or beat cop a three, they are likely a one or two with a specialization in their rifle or service pistol.



Apathy
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
So 'Qualified Marksman' means 'Trainee in police academy or military boot camp' and every 'Regular beat cop or military grunt' is a 'Qualified Sharpshooter'?

Because that is the official list:

  • Shot some tin cans with a BB gun a few times. - Skill 1
  • Trainee in police academy or military boot camp - Skill 2
  • Regular beat cop or military grunt - Skill 3
  • Riot control cop, combat veteran, superior regular force (Marines, Airborne) - Skill 4
  • SWAT team, elite military (Rangers, Special Forces) - Skill 5
  • Individual superstars amongst elite forces. Ghost-Who-Walks-Inside, Hatchetman, Matador - Skill 6
  • “Wild Billâ€? Hickock, James Bond, Thunder Tyee - Skill 7

Yes, trainees in military boot camp are qualified marksmen. Trainees in boot camp who fail to qualify with at least the minimum passing score (marksman) are re-trained and sent back to the range until they can qualify, even if it means knocking them back to a later graduating class.

In reality, many rear-echelon soldiers rarely use rifles, and therefore never get past this point. Only those soldiers who consistently train on the range show much improvement. Grunts (i.e. infantry soldiers, a/k/a 'crunchies' by tankers like me) put more emphasis on rifle marksmanship than any other MOS, and they are the ones who elevate their scores up to sharpshooter and expert.

Also, this is just the average rating. You'll invariably find some regular infantry NCOs who still barely qualify as Marksman, and a few prodigy recruits who shoot expert (or better). So no, not every military grunt is a Sharpshooter, but the average one probably is.

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
The reality of the game is that with skill levels translated lower than said table, such a character will reliably accomplish... nothing.

Which doesn't fit reality either.[/LIST]

Many times trained officers do accomplish very little. (The following example is not intended to make light of the tragic shooting of an innocent man, but just to illustrate that many professionals with guns are shockingly bad shots.) February, 1999 - Four plain clothes police officers confront Amadou Diallo. Observing the suspect reach into his jacket, they [mistakenly] believe Diallo to be reaching for a gun and open fire. The four officers fire 41 shots at close range with no cover and good lighting against a [mostly] still, standing target [Threshhold 1], but only hit him 19 times (46% accuracy). In their cases, giving them Agility 3/Pistols 3 would be overly generous. Perhaps their 6DP was reduced by -3 when they all failed their Composure tests?
Zhan Shi
I dare anyone to go to Ft. Bragg and tell a group of Green Berets that their hats are silly.
Whipstitch
Oh, I'd argue that reliably accomplishing nothing with firearms isn't that weird. People miss pretty damn often in real life, especially in a firefight when they're concentrating as much on keeping their heads down, keeping track of where everyone is and suppressing enemy positions. In both shadowrun and real life fire fights at close quarters between equally "skilled" grunts with minimal cover are pretty damn deadly on both sides while fighting from cover can result in a stalemate until someone suppresses and flanks. If anything we're just being skewed by the fact that shadowrun gunfire tends to come across as rather crazy accurate since firing off a burst of gunfire is treated as one all or nothing attack for the sake of speeding things up and the fact that a jacked up and cybered Street Samurai tends to be crazy accurate; we get to thinking in terms of a 60-80% chance to hit with any given round being fired with automatics against a hostile target as being normal when the reality just isn't so. There's a lot of situations where simulating reality would likely require firing a helluva lot more and hitting less in the same short combat round.
kzt
A 2% hit rate from small arms is considered pretty good in real combat. That means you average infantryman hits someone 4 times going though their 210 round basic load in a multi-minute firefight.

In SR everyone is crazy accurate.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (cndblank)
Don't forget that when they give a grunt or beat cop a three, they are likely a one or two with a specialization in their rifle or service pistol.

Nope. Not even for Grunts.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Apathy)
Yes, trainees in military boot camp are qualified marksmen. Trainees in boot camp who fail to qualify with at least the minimum passing score (marksman) are re-trained and sent back to the range until they can qualify, even if it means knocking them back to a later graduating class.

Actually, that would make 'Qualified Marksmen' Skill 3 - to have passed boot camp.
But thanks for the buzzwhack.

QUOTE (Apathy)
Also, this is just the average rating. You'll invariably find some regular infantry NCOs who still barely qualify as Marksman, and a few prodigy recruits who shoot expert (or better). So no, not every military grunt is a Sharpshooter, but the average one probably is.

Sure, that's the usual gauss of incompetence and talent.
And if you aim to build an incompetent specop, that's perfectly fine.

QUOTE (Apathy)
The four officers fire 41 shots at close range with no cover and good lighting against a [mostly] still, standing target [Threshhold 1], but only hit him 19 times (46% accuracy). In their cases, giving them Agility 3/Pistols 3 would be overly generous.

Actually, the incident happend after midnight, qualifying for partial lighting (-2). Depending on the story you want to believe, he either ran away in front of his door (+2 on his dodge) or opended the door which is partial cover (-2).
That nets the average officer a total of 2 dice, with the average target having 3 dice to start to dodge with in the latter case - 4 and 5 vice versa.
One office even was said to simply fall down the stairs and thus injured, reducing the pool further.

But, honestly - that story has so many variants it not even funny anymore.
My point, on the other had is - having the average start dice pool of 6 in combat isn't actually that impressive. In fact, someone trained for more dire circumstances needs a bit more.
ElFenrir
Well, i try to take anything in a game with a grain of salt. They aren't meant to mirror real life. Some come closer than others(SR is one), but the game also has elves, dwarves, magic, dragons, devil rats, giant armadillos that eat motorcycles, krakens, adepts, full AR, laser beams, giant bears with tusks, and i could go on. Even back in SR3, they discussed how full-auto weapons aren't fully real life, because IRL, they are acutally insane in their ROF. If they copied them, anyone could turn any character to swiss cheese in a hurry. So they made it more 'comfy' for the game.

In a game, you're not playing Joe Average unless you WANT to play Joe Average(attributes 2 maybe 1 or 2 at 3, skills 0-1, with a 2 for the one they are specialized in, like the profession).

I'd think Special Forces guys would be well above that. And even above your 'typical shadowrunner', who is built with 400 BPs. Now, i know for a fact that 400 BPs is workable for one of these guys. We've spent 150-170+ on skills MANY times and still had points left over. Assume(ok, the way we do it), a handful of positive and negative qualities(which equal to about +15 on average at the end...say +10, -25, and that's nothing worse than the Sample Characters did), for 415. 200 for Attributes, 10 Edge, 10 Contacts(ok, we also use the Cha x2 Contact Point rule, if not, add a few more points on if you like), and 25 resources. Yep, 170 points left to spend(155 if you don't take any extra negative qualities, or anywhere in between depending), and that's a load to play with. If you decide to keep them at edge 2 if human(a friend of mine had a good point saying that sometimes experienced characters might have lower than average Edge...thinking they may have gained and burnt it over their careers.)


Now, with that many skill points at their disposal(yeah, i understand not everyone uses Cha x 2 contacts, but bear with me for this example, it can be adjusted by a few points), ill allocate some skills. Using my method of +15 BPs aver all(415), and this can run from 170-180(if Edge is not spent).

Firearms group 4(40), or if you prefer a speciality, seperately. More points, but sometimes them's the breaks. If you want a Sniper, Longarms(Rifles) 5(+2), Automatics 2, Pistols(Semi Automatics) 3(+2) for a total of 44 points. Or divided up as you choose, depending. Total: 40-44.

Close Combat group 3. (30 points). Or, again, divided up. Or you might want someone very adept at fighting in close. Say Unarmed Combat(pick style): 4(+2), Blades(Knives) 4(+2), for a total 36 points. Running total: 70-80.

Heavy Weapons: 3-5, depending on your concept.(12-20 points). Running total: 82-100.

Pilot Ground Craft(say Wheeled, unless you want a tank pilot.). 2(+2). Now, there is room for super special forces drivers...but even with 170 you should pick some sort of focus, unless you really want the jack of all trades. 10 points(running total, 90-110).

Perception(Visual) 2(+2). Maybe more for a sniper...id say 3(+2) at least. Running: 100-124.

Dodge(Ranged) 1(+2). 2(+2) if you have some points left. But something here is nice. Running: 106-134.

Athletics Skill Group: 1-2. I'd say a Special Forces guy has some skill here. Again, let it depend what you want. 1 should suffice, in the whole group. 116-154. Getting close now, if you've taken the higher end.

First Aid(Combat Wounds). For a Combat Medic specialist, this could be higher. But low end, 1(+2) should be cool. Total: 122-160.

Infiltration and Shadowing. These are very concept dependent, again. I'd say they should have a minimum of 1(+2), for a running total of 134-172.

Social Skills. I think any Special Forces guy should have Etiquette(Military) of at least 2(+2), if not better, but skill points, again, do run out. Negotiations(any merc should indeed know how to negotiate a contract) at 2 for 8, and Instruction/Intimidation as well, if you can. Now the skills are becoming a bit blurry.

Ok, so here i go. I'll toss out what i would do in my game. Ill be using Cha x 2 contact points, but it doesn't give enough points to really matter. Im basing it off of an actual concept ive had, but didn't get to play yet. I'll keep Availability in check, though, even though we don't use it at our table. Im not buying gear, though, just for cyberware. Also, ill be sticking to Negative Qualities in the books, but we have converted the old Negative Qualities of SR3 over already, and thus have had more to choose from.

[ Spoiler ]


The concept here was more of a front line guy; but with enough stealth and little odds and ends to make him useful in other situations. Special Forces guys don't live long if they are total one-trick ponys. Some people here might find this guy a bit excessive...but looking at it, he's not completely overblown. For his highest skill(assault rifles spec), he does throw down 15 dice with a smartlink. Other gun skills go around 11-13. Melees between 9-12 dice. Social skills float between 5-8 dice, throws 9 dice for Urban Infiltration(this can be changed to Wilderness if it fits the concept) and 7 dice for Tailing. He even throws 6 dice to get someone from dying to somewhat stable with combat wounds...he's far from a doc but he can keep one of his men alive for a while. You could even take a few BP from one skill to move it to Leadership.

He's got some negative qualities to work around, but to me, this is around how an experiences Special Forces type would look. Again, depending on type, skills change. I can think that there are many, many combinations...from combat medics, computer experts, stealth ghosts, and the like.

The Combat Medic is an idea ive been wanting to play with for a long time, actually.

[/endless post]


Whipstitch
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
My point, on the other had is - having the average start dice pool of 6 in combat isn't actually that impressive. In fact, someone trained for more dire circumstances needs a bit more.

Which is why many of us are talking in terms of starting with a dice pool of 8 (4 agility, 4 Firearms) as the absolute ground floor for Special Ops. Throw in a smartlink and these guys are ALL in the double digits and most of them will likely have an appropriate specialization and/or an augmentation or two boosting them higher. Snipers and guys who've seen a lot of combat or specialize in high risk house-to-house fighting all being in the 5-7 range plus being blessed with higher unaugmented agility wouldn't offend me either.

And perhaps most importantly, these things are all relative; there is no "average dice pool of 6" for the average person, there's only an average dice pool of 6 for the average trained soldier. Start with a dice pool of 6, an aimed shot and a short wide burst and and suddenly your average target (and even an average soldier) has only a single die to defend against 7 dice with unless they've got the benefit of full defense and/or cover; in other words, your average soldier will stomp all over the average person in a firefight. Sure, the second everyone takes cover and uses full defense to keep their heads down rather than to shoot back, attacks become wildly innaccurate at these dice pool ranges, but again, as I've said before, I don't see that as a problem as that's basically how combat works. As Ravor's fond of pointing out things don't get wacky until you start comparing these guys to augmented people who are quite happy to take full defense and attack at the same time and have the dice pool to nail you despite cover modifiers. Where he and I differ is that I don't mind augmented characters being superhuman.
Stahlseele
QUOTE
I don't mind augmented characters being superhuman.

excuse me but . . ain't that the hollow point of the whole biz ? O.o
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Apathy)
February, 1999 - Four plain clothes police officers confront Amadou Diallo. Observing the suspect reach into his jacket, they [mistakenly] believe Diallo to be reaching for a gun and open fire. The four officers fire 41 shots at close range with no cover and good lighting against a [mostly] still, standing target [Threshhold 1], but only hit him 19 times (46% accuracy). In their cases, giving them Agility 3/Pistols 3 would be overly generous. Perhaps their 6DP was reduced by -3 when they all failed their Composure tests?

See, a little while ago I was trying to think how SR3 dice mechanics could be calibrated to more or less line up with real world police accuracy statistics. However, it wasn't so easy to make things "fit". Likewise, I believe you'd encounter a similar problem with the SR4 mechanics when trying to tie it to real world stats.

At this point I'm not sure what to do. One option is to use similar mechanics but make significant modifications to gear the system towards what "should" happen in the real world based on statistics. However, this has the problem of potentially getting really complicated and alienating a lot of current SR players.
Whipstitch
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 13 2008, 12:56 PM)
QUOTE
I don't mind augmented characters being superhuman.

excuse me but . . ain't that the hollow point of the whole biz ? O.o

QUOTE (Ravor)
Yeah, but I place the blame mostly on the fault of DMs and Players who forget that in Fourth Edition, natural dicepools of 6-8+ are supposed to be considered the norm with Runners being slightly ahead of the curve.

Of course, I should disclaim myself by saying that if you are having fun with high dicepool games then more power to you, I however believe that the game's engine breaks once the dicepools start climbing and that it is a bug, not a feature that starting characters can be "world class" and better straight out of the box using the default char gen rules.


Different strokes for different folks. Regardless of where you set the power level, however, the important thing to keep in mind in shadowrun is how dicepools perform relative to eachother. Things may scale upwards, but once you've got a single net hit, somebody's losing.
ElFenrir
QUOTE (Whipstitch)
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 13 2008, 12:56 PM)
QUOTE
I don't mind augmented characters being superhuman.

excuse me but . . ain't that the hollow point of the whole biz ? O.o

QUOTE (Ravor)
Yeah, but I place the blame mostly on the fault of DMs and Players who forget that in Fourth Edition, natural dicepools of 6-8+ are supposed to be considered the norm with Runners being slightly ahead of the curve.

Of course, I should disclaim myself by saying that if you are having fun with high dicepool games then more power to you, I however believe that the game's engine breaks once the dicepools start climbing and that it is a bug, not a feature that starting characters can be "world class" and better straight out of the box using the default char gen rules.


Different strokes for different folks.

Full agreement. Some games have lower averages, others higher. None are wrong. It's what you like.

The only times problems arise is when A. People try to shove their gaming styles on others, and accusing other people of having ''wrong'' styles, and B. Sometimes people have different opinions on how to make a character. The Special Forces thread is an example. The example i posted is one that would be found in one of our(my group's) games. He, in turn, might be considered a bit/alot overpowered by other people who have the 6-8 dice norm going. And, in turn, he also might be considered a weakling in others campaigns, who have specialties of 20+ and mid pools of the teens. There is no 'correct way'.

Ask 8 people how they would make, say, a Former Company Man. You'll easily get several different ones(and that's assuming they don't change variants...former company troubleshooter, black ops, demolitionist...). Do the same with a Weapons Specialist, and again, you'll get several variants.

But, if someone asks an opinion on 'how to make _____?'', best we can do is post our versions and let them decide which fits best.
Ryu
That character would, despite being weaker than what I´d expect of SpecOps, be very wellcome in my campaign, and also fit the present power level well.
TheOneRonin
Pretty much the whole reason I started this thread is to see what others in the community think in terms of how a 2070 Army Green Beret would be statted out in SR4 mechanics.

I also hoped to be able to share a little of what I've learned over these about these operators and maybe dispel a few myths that some of the community may have about these types of soldiers.

I've actually been fairly impressed with most of what I've seen...a lot of you take this sort of thing seriously, and make sure you get do as much research as you can before posting up stuff. I like that. cool.gif

Plus this thread has started a few debates that I've quite enjoyed as well. That's always a bonus.

Ravor
As a disclaimer, I'm writing this post before I've completely caught back up on the thread, thanks Whipstitch. wink.gif


Anyways, as it has been pointed out, I would build Special Forces with natural dicepools of 6-8 in their primary skills with an occasional high-water mark in the soldier's area of expertize, and having the various cross-training and secondary skills being a couple of points lower.

For cyberware, everyone, even Mages would at least have a datajack in order to make full use of the various 'softs, sure, a program isn't really a substitute for learnt knowledge, but being able to speak and read any langauge known to man as well as being able to call up detailed cultural references, mission specs, ect with DNI that can't be lost or taken away in a situation where the soldier isn't already completely fragged is just too big of an advantage not to use.

I also envision sense-enhancing cyberware as being standard (Especially for Mages.), but not awhole lot of flashy cyber.

*Edit*

Now some of you may be wondering what seperates Special Forces from Soldiers in my games, well the basic answer is that Special Forces have a broader range of training then a normal grunt.
TheOneRonin
I personally feel that, when dealing with What I Think™ Special Forces Operators should have in terms of skills, it comes out looking something like this:


Core Competencies: (skills everyone has, regardless of specialty)

Athletics (Group)
Influence (Group)
Outdoors (Group)
Stealth (Group)
Close Combat (Group)/or relevant hand to hand skill
Firearms (Group, except for Weapons Sgts)

Perception
Parachuting (all are Airborne qualified)
First Aid
Instruction (all are qualified instructors)
Computer (prob at 1 unless Commo specialty)
Hardware (same as above)
Demolitions (prob at 1...everyone knows how to setup breaching charges and how to demo equipment, Engineers will have a much higher skill)

If I had more time, I'd go into what skillsets would be found with each specialty, but I have to jet.

I leave the ratings of said skills up to the rest of you...
Rotbart van Dainig
Don't forget:


Heavy Weapons - without it, you can't even handle a grenade launcher or LMG.
Electronic Warfare - it covers everything concerning SigInt for those specialists.
Earlydawn
I'm also concerned with how Special Forces will have changed in the Sixth. The Matrix is a reality, and network warfare will probably be as serious a battleground as land or air is today. You're also going to have to address how a Special Operations Company may have changed with the advent of magic.

In general, I agree that a UCAS Special Forces Soldier would probably be a better then average shooter. Perhaps a four in his main category. However, I really see two true differences with special forces. The first is education and approach; special forces would approach a problem with a totally different strategy and capability background then average troops. The second varies by branch:

From what I've read, Rangers are generally exceptional light infantry, and their strength comes from physical and mental hardening, and refined combat skills. In SR4, I would give them higher ranged and melee skills, as well as slightly higher bod and willpower. The pure Green Beret units seem to have a special emphasis on stealth, so I would give them higher stealth stats. Delta Force does a lot of fast-moving urban operations, so they'd probably have cyber similar to a corpsec HTR team. SEALs would have better then average transportation skills (particularly RIBs and like), and probably generally more talent in demolition then their Army counterparts. Finally, I see Air Force as having a lot of communications training and equipment, as well as a good strong Matrix background.
TheOneRonin
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
Don't forget:


Heavy Weapons - without it, you can't even handle a grenade launcher or LMG.
Electronic Warfare - it covers everything concerning SigInt for those specialists.


Yeah, I forgot about the heavy weapons skills...probably because I generally use some house rules for that. But yeah, all Special Forces operators should be at least borderline competent with GLs and LMGs, as well as tripod .50 cals (HMGs), and vehicle mounted ballistic weapons (from LMGs to miniguns...prob some Gunnery too).


I'm not so sure about EW, though. I can see all the members of an ODA having training on some EW/Commo equipment, but using most of that should fall under the Computer skill rather than the EW skill, I would think. IMHO, the EW skill itself would probably only be known by the Commo Sgts and Intel Sgts.

TheOneRonin
QUOTE (Earlydawn)
I'm also concerned with how Special Forces will have changed in the Sixth. The Matrix is a reality, and network warfare will probably be as serious a battleground as land or air is today. You're also going to have to address how a Special Operations Company may have changed with the advent of magic.


A couple of things here. First off, the info warfare stuff just means that commo sgts will be THAT much more critical to successful operations, and that the rest of your ODA will have to have that much more technical training on commo related equipment.

As for Magic, that's a whole new ballgame. I would bet that ODAs would either move to 13-man teams with a Warrant Officer Mage slot, or possible there would be a single Mage per SF Company, attached as needed to ODAs. It would be idea for each ODA to have a Senior and Junior WO Mage, but I don't think the numbers would be there. I doubt there are enough awakened people who have full spellcasting capability AND the ability to pass SF Selection.

And like I said in an earlier post, I would be that the Team Mage's spells/training would revolve around intel gathering and doing things that you can't replicate (or can't easily replicate) with mundane means. I think you'd see the following spells in an SF Mage's repertoire:

-Analyze Truth (more for dealing with indigs than for interrogation)
-Clairaudience (fucking awesome for gathering intel)
-Clairvoyance (same as above)
-Detect Enemies/Extended (priceless when clearing buildings and moving through hostile territory)
-Detect Life (lots of uses here)
-Detect [Object] (Detect Explosives, Detect Firearms, etc...)
-Cure Disease (this would be HUGE for building trust with indigs)
-Heal (duh...)
-Stabilize (another duh)
-Influence (these aren't the Americans you are looking for...)

And not to mention spirit summoning, astral perceiving/projecting, and warding. All VERY good abilities to have.


QUOTE
In general, I agree that a UCAS Special Forces Soldier would probably be a better then average shooter. Perhaps a four in his main category. However, I really see two true differences with special forces. The first is education and approach; special forces would approach a problem with a totally different strategy and capability background then average troops.


Agreed. That's what makes them "Special". cool.gif


QUOTE
The second varies by branch:


Just gonna add some clarity here. When I use the term "Special Forces" in this thread, I have been specifically speaking about the US Army Special Operations Groups, which are sometimes called Green Berets because of their headgear. This is a SPECIFIC group of Special Operators, and not just a generic term for all Special Operations capable units. Their missions and responsibilities are oftentimes different than what the Rangers, SEALS, CCTs, PJs, DevGRU, and CAG do. Just so we are all on the same page here...I've been talking about a specific organization, not just SpecOps in general. Moving on...


QUOTE
From what I've read, Rangers are generally exceptional light infantry, and their strength comes from physical and mental hardening, and refined combat skills.


Pretty much correct.


QUOTE
In SR4, I would give them higher ranged and melee skills, as well as slightly higher bod and willpower.


Higher than whom? The average light Infantryman? Sure, I'll buy that, though I don't think the SR4 system is granular enough to reflect the small differences between the two. If anything, the Rangers only really surpass other light Infantry in their motivation/morale.


QUOTE
The pure Green Beret units seem to have a special emphasis on stealth, so I would give them higher stealth stats.


Not sure where you get that from. Infiltration skills are important, but aren't necessarily emphasized any more for ODAs than for other small groups of operators. Social skills are probably much more at the top of the list for ODAs than for any other US SpecOps unit.


QUOTE
Delta Force does a lot of fast-moving urban operations, so they'd probably have cyber similar to a corpsec HTR team.


Delta, or CAG (Combat Applications Group) is primarily a counter-terror unit, and so yes, room clearing, hostage rescue and other such ops are their forte. So I would agree that you would be more likely to see HTR Team equivalent cyber in their units than in an ODA.


QUOTE
SEALs would have better then average transportation skills (particularly RIBs and like), and probably generally more talent in demolition then their Army counterparts.


I don't know as much about SEALs as I know about Army SF, but I don't feel that your statement here is accurate. Rangers and SF train in using RHIBs, and because of their regular army backgrounds, probably also get some training on Military Ground Vehicles (namely Hummers and transport trucks). SEALs might get more vehicle-based training, but I haven't read anything to confirm or refute that. And as for Demo, each ODA has two Engineer Sgts that are probably experts with all types of demo...and probably have an EOD (Explosive Ordnance Disposal) background. Again, not sure why SEALs would have a leg-up on SF when it comes to demo.


QUOTE
Finally, I see Air Force as having a lot of communications training and equipment, as well as a good strong Matrix background.


Well, I'm guessing you are talking about the Air Force Combat Controller Teams (CCTs) and Pararescue Jumpers (PJs). Again, they would be experts at using the equipment that is specific for their missions, but ODAs have Commo Sgts, which are probably Matrix experts, Drone Rigges, and EW guys all rolled into one. Again, I'm not positive, but I would bet that ODAs have more matrix/commo expertise than any given CCT or PJ unit.
Whipstitch
I certainly understand how SEALs could have that reputation since they're basically the direct descendents of the Underwater Demolition Teams and it's likely still a big part of what they do. On the other hand, I would think Special Forces would at some point be trained to a comparable level since they're supposed to be able to do eachother's jobs, and demolitions isn't really a field where it's acceptable to "sort of" know what you're doing.
TheOneRonin
Especially since the two Engineer Sgts in an ODA probably have the Combat Engineer MOS before they get into SF, which means they have a shit-ton of Demolitions background.

I had forgotten about the SEAL BUD/S stuff. So what you would have is a basic level of demolitions competency across the entire SEAL team, while SF would have a much higher level of demolitions skill isolated to two soldiers per ODA. Makes sense.

TheOneRonin
So I was doing some research on SF and thinking about the comments made about awakened soldiers in SF ODAs, and found some interesting numbers.

As of today, 2008, the following is true:

The US Army has approximately 500,000 active duty personnel.

Of that 500,000, only ~4000 are active duty Special Forces personnel who have passed SF selection.

Those 4000 people are divided amongst 5 SF groups. (1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 10th groups)

Each SF Group has about 800 SF operators divided up into 3 Battalions.

Each Battalion has about 260+ SF Operators divided up into 3 Companies.

Each Company has about 84 SF Operators divided across 6 ODAs and 1 ODB.

Each ODA is 12 SF operators.


I'm not sure if this is accurate, but I believe that one of the SR books (not sure of the edition) mentions that about 1% of the population is awakened. So given that, in an Army Special Operations command of about 4,000 personnel, you would probably find about ~40 awakened individuals. Now, the percentage that are full-blown spellcasters would probably be much smaller, but lets say, for shits and giggles, that the characteristics that are common in full mages make for a good foundation for SpecOps training. Lets also say that the Army very actively recruits Spellcasters and provides fantastic benefits for those that wish to serve. So I'm going to inflate that number to 45 full blown spellcasters in all of SF. That's just a little more than 1% of the entire SF population.

At 45 mages in SF, that gives us 9 mages per SF Group, 3 mages per SF Battalion, and 1 mage per SF Company.

So most likley, that one mage is part of the ODB team, and must split his field time amongst the 6 ODAs in that company. That seems about right.

I know the Army would love to have more mages, but that just won't happen. There are VERY few people who have the potential to be spellcasters, and probably fewer still who have what it takes to be SF Operators. Put those two together, and the pickings are VERY slim.

Fortune
The problem with using overall percentage of Awakened in that fashion is that those Awakened individuals are usually going to gravitate toward occupations that are relevant to them. You are not going to find even close to one percent of all garbage men or ditch diggers or Stuffer Shack clerks that are Awakened, but you'll probably find the percentage higher in places like the Military and security.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Fortune)
... but you'll probably find the percentage higher in places like the Military and security.

If you decide that you need a certain number of magicians in a certain job, you will increase their pay until you get them.
Fortune
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
If you decide that you need a certain number of magicians in a certain job, you will increase their pay until you get them.

True, but as I tried to imply with my last post, there are always professions that do not really need Awakened people to fill the role.
Moon-Hawk
Well....yeah. I mean, who's going to pay extra for an awakened garbage man?
I was agreeing with you, and elaborating.
Fortune
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Jan 16 2008, 06:55 AM)
I was agreeing with you, and elaborating.

Ah, my bad! Maybe I do need sleep after all. eek.gif biggrin.gif
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Jan 16 2008, 06:55 AM)
I was agreeing with you, and elaborating.

Ah, my bad! eek.gif

Feeling argumentative today, Fortune? biggrin.gif
Quoting does not, necessarily, imply disagreement.
TheOneRonin
I do agree with Fortune for the most part. However, I feel like the Military, and ESPECIALLY SF, will not attract more than it's 1% share of Awakened individuals...specifically spellcasters.

The Army just doesn't offer a comfortable life, and SF is about 100 times less comfortable than regular army life. And when you start expressing a talent at 16 years old that everyone tells you will get you a comfy apartment and a 6-figure salary in the real world, most of those people wouldn't even consider the military.

And going SF is not like joining the National Guard to pay for college. It's a challenging life, and one that you have to be pretty much dedicated to if you want to make it. So not only are we talking about being a part of that ultra-rare subgroup that has awakened potential, but you also have to be as fit as a college or pro athlete, as intelligent as master's degree graduate (I know it's a stretch), as good with people as a state politician or ambassadorial attache', and have as much perseverance as a motivational speaker. Those qualities are hard enough to find in the non-awakened populace...finding them amongst the awakened populace (outside of phyads) will be a serious challenge.

And while 45 full-mages per SF group seems to be a reasonable number, I doubt you would see much more than that, even if there is a need.
TheOneRonin
As an additional bit of info, I've compiled some statistics of Special Forces personnel ages, rank, and specialty. This was collected from publicly available websites detailing the info on SF soldiers who have been killed in action over the last 5 years. It's not exhaustive, but should give you some idea about how old these guys generally are and what ranks/specialties these guys have.

The Format is AGE: Specialty (Rank)

22: Wps Sgt (Ssgt)
23: Medic (Sgt)
24: Engr sgt (Sgt)
25: Commo Sgt (Sgt)
26: Medic (Sgt)
26: Wps Sgt (Ssgt)
27: Engr Sgt (Ssgt)
28: Commo Sgt (SFC)
28: Medic (SFC)
28: ODA Commander (Cpt)
28: Sr Wps Sgt (SFC)
28: Wps Sgt (SFC)
29: Medic (Ssgt)
29: ODA Commander (Cpt)
30: Engr Sgt (SFC)
30: Engr Sgt (Ssgt)
30: Medic (Ssgt)
30: ODA Commander (Cpt)
30: ODA Commander (Cpt)
30: ODA Commander (Cpt)
31: Engr Sgt (SFC)
31: Engr Sgt (Ssgt)
31: ODA Co (Cpt)
32: Commo Sgt (SFC)
32: Ops Officer (Major)
32: Sr. Medic (SFC)
32: Team Sgt (MSgt)
32: Wps Sgt (Ssgt)
33: Commo sgt (SFC)
33: Team Sgt (MSgt)
34: Engr Sgt (SFC)
34: ODA Executive Officer (CWO)
35: Medic (SFC)
35: Team Sgt (MSgt)
35: Wps Sgt (Ssgt)
36: Intel Sgt (SFC)
36: Operations Sgt (MSgt)
37: ODA Executive Officer (CWO)
38: Intel Sgt (MSgt)
38: ODA Executive Officer (CW2)
38: Sr. Commo Sgt (SFC)
38: Sr. Wps Sgt (SFC)
39: Team Sgt (MSgt)
40: Operations Sgt (MSgt)
40: Sr. Wps Sgt (MSgt)
40: Wps Sgt (SFC)
41: Company SgtMaj (SgtMaj)
42: Team Sgt (MSgt)
43: Commo Sgt (Ssgt)
45: Team Sgt (MSgt)
48: Company SgtMaj (SgtMaj)


Glossary:
[ Spoiler ]

Fortune
QUOTE (TheOneRonin @ Jan 16 2008, 07:18 AM)
However, I feel like the Military, and ESPECIALLY SF, will not attract more than it's 1% share of Awakened individuals...specifically spellcasters. 

...

And while 45 full-mages per SF group seems to be a reasonable number, I doubt you would see much more than that, even if there is a need.

I don't necessarily agree with your assertions on percentages, mainly because while the non-awakened soldier has pretty much the entire employment spectrum to consider, awakened persons will be drawn to a considerably limited number of professions. This would skew the numbers in those professions where awakened personnel are present.

Be that as it may though, I do think it reasonable that you might find a higher than normal percentage of Mystic Adepts.
Fortune
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
Feeling argumentative today, Fortune?

Seems that way. I blame boredom. And lack of sleep. And, of course, America! biggrin.gif
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Jan 16 2008, 06:58 AM)
Feeling argumentative today, Fortune?

Seems that way. I blame boredom. And lack of sleep. And, of course, America! biggrin.gif

Oh crap, what have we done in the last twenty minutes to piss the rest of the world off now? sarcastic.gif
Stahlseele
want that list in alphabetical, thematical or chonological order? *g*
TheOneRonin
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (TheOneRonin @ Jan 16 2008, 07:18 AM)
However, I feel like the Military, and ESPECIALLY SF, will not attract more than it's 1% share of Awakened individuals...specifically spellcasters. 

...

And while 45 full-mages per SF group seems to be a reasonable number, I doubt you would see much more than that, even if there is a need.

I don't necessarily agree with your assertions on percentages, mainly because while the non-awakened soldier has pretty much the entire employment spectrum to consider, awakened persons will be drawn to a considerably limited number of professions. This would skew the numbers in those professions where awakened personnel are present.

Be that as it may though, I do think it reasonable that you might find a higher than normal percentage of Mystic Adepts.

Okay...I'll bite. Let's talk about the limited fields that will appeal to awakened people.

First off, I'm going to throw physical adepts out of the equation, mostly because their powers just make them that much better at what a mundane can do without magic. So when Johnny, the all-star college freshman quarterback finds out he really is a physad, it's not going to change the fact that he is going to play pro ball...it's just going to change which league he plays in. Likewise, Bill, the country boy hunter who can shoot deer at 600 yards with iron sights while standing up is probably going to end up in the Army or Marine Corps regardless of whether he is a physad or just naturally that gifted.

So moving on, that leaves full mages and mystic adepts. Now, the Mystic Adepts would probably gravitate a lot more towards Military/Security jobs, since those jobs best compliment their abilities. But what about full mages? Here's where I think of their employment opportunities:

Military (good training, hard life, bottom end of the pay scale)

CorpSec (good training, moderately hard life, really, REALLY good pay)

Corp/Gvt WageMage (mediocre training, easy life, really good salary)

So while there is a great demand for full mages in the Military/Security fields, I doubt that 30% of those with the potential to be full mages would choose the Military. Maybe I'm just lazy...but if I found out at 17 years old that I had that kind of potential, there's no way I would have joined the Army.

I dunno...maybe it's a little different in the way you run your games...what numbers do you usually play with, Fortune?


Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (TheOneRonin)
Military (good training, hard life, bottom end of the pay scale)

Why are you so sure it would be low pay?
I mean, if the military had a device that could kill people through their armor, spy on people through walls, read minds, control minds, summon 100% expendable soldiers who could teleport around and do anything you say, etc., I would think they would pay quite a bit for it.
Hell, they pay $900,000 for one missile. (So says Call of Duty 4 load screens)
They need magicians, because they have to assume that the other guys have them, and if the other guy has magicians and they don't they're screwed. They lose. Having magicians in the military is not a luxury, it is a necessity. They can not allow a magician-gap. (or a mineshaft gap biggrin.gif ) If they need magicians, they will continue to increase the pay for magicians until they get them.
And yes, I'm sure getting an alternate payscale for magicians would be a bureaucratic nightmare.

The real problem is coming up with any reason why your Magic rating 8 ubermage isn't working for someone. There are reasons, but they need to be there, more so than for other archetypes who might not have guaranteed luxury lifestyles if they go legit.
Stahlseele
QUOTE
(or a mineshaft gap  )

*holds out hand* Dr.Strangelove i presume?
TheOneRonin
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
QUOTE (TheOneRonin @ Jan 16 2008, 11:47 AM)
Military (good training, hard life, bottom end of the pay scale)

Why are you so sure it would be low pay?


Because I haven't seen any evidence that US Army Salaries (indeed, the US Military in general) are based off of anything but rank and time in service. It doesn't matter if you are a Sergeant First Class (E-7) cook or a Sergeant First Class SF Commo Sgt. Your base pay is the SAME. Now, the SF guy will get Combat Pay, TDY pay, Jump pay, and a handful other small bonus on top of that, but he still won't make near the salary that he could earn in the civilian world working for one of the telco conglomerates.

QUOTE
I mean, if the military had a device that could kill people through their armor, spy on people through walls, read minds, control minds, summon 100% expendable soldiers who could teleport around and do anything you say, etc., I would think they would pay quite a bit for it.



By the same line of thinking, if the Army had a need for people who could pull off the missions and tasks that SF people can do, they would pay for it, right? Not so much. An Army Sergeant First Class (E-7) with 12-14 years of service has a base pay of $41,119.20 USD per year. I've been doing IT work for just over 10 years, and I make $25% more than that. Plus, there is no way I could be an SF guy...I'm just not up to snuff.

So even though the Army REALLY needs these guys, it just doesn't pay them well compared to what they would earn in the civilian world, and I don't think it ever will

QUOTE
Hell, they pay $900,000 for one missile.  (So says Call of Duty 4 load screens)
They need magicians, because they have to assume that the other guys have them, and if the other guy has magicians and they don't they're screwed.  They lose.  Having magicians in the military is not a luxury, it is a necessity.  They can not allow a magician-gap.  (or a mineshaft gap  biggrin.gif )  If they need magicians, they will continue to increase the pay for magicians until they get them.



A couple of things to keep in mind here. First, I never said the Army won't have mages. In fact, I think they will have a considerable number of them. I figured an Army of 500,000 would have somewhere around 5000 mages. That's a big number, especially if your deployment plans involve attaching individual mages at the Company or Battalion level as needed. Second, as we've already discussed, you don't necessarily need to pay gifted individuals an astronomical salary to get them to do difficult jobs. Our SF Commo Sgt above will attest to that.

QUOTE
And yes, I'm sure getting an alternate payscale for magicians would be a bureaucratic nightmare.


True, but I don't even think that would be considered by the Army. Maybe inducting Mages as officers (a la Doctors or Lawyers) would happen, or having a flat "Thaumatugical Pay" bonus, but not a separate pay scale.


QUOTE
The real problem is coming up with any reason why your Magic rating 8 ubermage isn't working for someone.  There are reasons, but they need to be there, more so than for other archetypes who might not have guaranteed luxury lifestyles if they go legit.


Yeah, that is often times an issue for MOST highly skilled SR characters...and a battle I fight every time I start a new campaign as a GM.
Magus
Because pay in the military is due to rank. Everyone knows how much each rank pays out. It is set in stone. Just because someone is a mage in the military does not get them a separate pay scale. That is one of the foundation stones of the military. Everyone makes the same pay at that pay rate +/- BAQ for the married folks, but even that is the same for the paygrade uniformally throughout the service.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Magus)
Because pay in the military is due to rank. Everyone knows how much each rank pays out. It is set in stone.

They could put them on the General Schedule. biggrin.gif They can make exceptions for that.
TheOneRonin
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
QUOTE (Magus @ Jan 16 2008, 01:10 PM)
Because pay in the military is due to rank. Everyone knows how much each rank pays out. It is set in stone.

They could put them on the General Schedule. biggrin.gif They can make exceptions for that.

Right, but then the mage is more of a gubmint worker than true military personnel, and would probably sit outside the Army chain-of-command. I'm not sure the top Army brass would like that at all.

Moon-Hawk
No probably not.
Spike
While it is true that everyone at a particular grade gets the same rank, not everyone gets the same pay.

Pilots in the Army, for example, get some 800 dollars a month in 'Flight pay' as long as they fly a certain number of hours. Paratroopers get 'jump pay', which I believe is around 250 a month, but I've been out of that loop for almost ten years.

Mages might get very impressive 'mage bonuses' on top of the reasonably comfortable officer/warrent pay they are bound to be earning.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (TheOneRonin)
Right, but then the mage is more of a gubmint worker than true military personnel, and would probably sit outside the Army chain-of-command.

How does that work, anyway? I mean, I know several of the levels of the General Schedule have "rank equivalencies", which apply for certain aspects of protocol, but what does that really mean?
Does it just mean that people below your "rank equivalence" are supposed to, what, be polite?
Thistlewaite
True, everyone in the military is on the same pay scale but as was pointed out, there are a lot of merit bonuses that can be added to that pay. They tend to be combat or special skill related and I would call being a mage a special skill even if it was an innate rather than trained one.

The other option is a enlistment or re-enlistment bonus. At one point the Navy was offering $50,000 to their nuclear trained sailors to re-enlist. That was approximately 3 yrs pay as an E-5 at the time.

Back in the day when I enlisted into the Marines, they were offer 6 months E-1 pay for combat arms enlistees and 3 months E-1 pay for tech fields as a lump sum upon successful completion of MOS training.

In closing, there are lots of ways that the military could compensate a mage for serving his country they just have to budget it.
Magus
Even so as a paratrooper in the Eighty Deuce we were still looked on with envy due to our Jump Pay, can you imagine the stigma to mages for extra huge bonuses for Magic Pay.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012