 The Final Call on the Panther Cannon, Was this errata'd? |
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 Jan 23 2008, 07:36 PM
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#1
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083  |
As it appears in the BBB, the Panther Cannon is weightless (like all weapons), and has no particular penalties for size. So essentially, anyone with the Heavy Weapons skill can fire one, especially since the recoil, according to the rules, is negligible. In older editions the Panther was mainly used by Trolls, because nobody else was strong enough. Now, you could have an anemic dwarf lighting people up with this thing, unless there's a rule that I'm missing. Was this ever addressed officially?
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Jan 23 2008, 07:55 PM
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#2
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
It's adressed mostly by the fact that it's a single shot weapon that's virtually impossible to conceal and fires wildy expensive anti-tank rounds. It'd be realistic if it had more penalties attached, I suppose, but it'd also have very little business being included in the RAW.
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Jan 23 2008, 08:02 PM
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#3
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Maybe Arsenal will introduce strength minimums per weapon class for unsupported firing. Something like, Assault Cannons/HMGs/MMGs/etc have a minimum Str (or Bod, or Str+Bod) of Blah. For every point less than Blah, you take a -Blah penalty to dice rolls. Or you could make up your own rules.
But no, there's nothing officially forbidding a 6-year-old girl from firing a panther cannon, and she doesn't officially take damage from the recoil. AFAIK, anyway. |
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Jan 23 2008, 08:04 PM
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#4
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083 |
Yeah, that's more or less what I meant, Moon-Hawk. I was just really surprised to see that they'd made those changes. I'm all for lightening the bookkeeping aspect of SR, but there's a limit, you know?
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Jan 23 2008, 08:20 PM
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#5
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
I wonder if we could modify the knock back rules for this. Something like if you fire a weapon whose base DV is greater than your Body, you need to make a Body + Strength test to avoid getting knocked on your rear by the recoil. The threshold of the test could be related to the weapon:
Then, burst or full auto could either increase the threshold (+1 and +2 perhaps?) or reduce the die pool. Thoughts? |
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Jan 23 2008, 08:31 PM
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#6
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Failing that, we could just assume that the Panther comes with a bipod.
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Jan 23 2008, 08:50 PM
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#7
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Target Group: Members Posts: 76 Joined: 12-September 07 Member No.: 13,233 |
Maybe require a knockdown test if (STR + BOD < DV), so you don't have to make a test everytime your normalish human fires his pistol. Then you can ditch the category dependent thresh-holds and just have the threshhold determined by burst/full-auto. Same effect, just less dice-rolling. Although now a reasonably hefty human could fire the Panther Cannon without any cyber. Or have a knockdown test if (BOD < DV), but only apply that rule for Panther Cannons and machine guns. Then you must have a troll to fire the panther cannon, or be heavily cybered. |
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Jan 23 2008, 09:34 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 13-April 07 From: Houston, Texas Member No.: 11,448 |
which makes NO sense considering the weapon is designed to be usable by an unaugmented human. The description of the weapon indicates it has tremendous recoil, but since the weapon is single shot, the soldier(or runner) firing the weapon has ~3 whole seconds to obtain another sight picture(of course this is faster for the wired user). If this thing couldnt be fired effectively by the soldiers it was meant for, it wouldnt have gotten the "thumbs up" from the top brass. Also, "anti-tank ammo" has such a subjective meaning. It could be U-238 armor penetrating round as much as it could be a HEAT round. When I think of the Panther Assault Cannon(or Panther XXL in SR4's case), I tend to match it with the largest "rifle" type weapons in use today. The ones that might be so big as to not be practical for a man-portable weapon. Say, like a 20mm rifle: http://www.defensereview.com/stories/anzio...r%20Rifle_4.jpg |
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Jan 23 2008, 09:37 PM
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#9
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083 |
...it's still kinda silly that a 6 year old boy could fire it under the current rules.
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Jan 23 2008, 09:45 PM
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#10
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Target Group: Members Posts: 71 Joined: 29-July 06 From: Orlando, FL Member No.: 8,981 |
I don't know how true this idea is, well among Small arms. Handling Recoil is more skill based than it is based on DV. I shotgun can indeed put you on your ACE, BUT if you know how to shoulder it correctly and have a proper stance, there is practically no way your going to fall on your butt. I've taken some women out to the Gun Range on a couple of occassions, and while the recoil is troublesome, when they shoulder properly and have a proper stance they will never fall. To manage recoil, in my SxS 12 ga, we use recoil reduction cartridges. Eventually after firing them for a while, you'll get used to the recoil and will be able to Handle the firearm allot better. Like I said I really think its more skill base than anything else. |
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Jan 23 2008, 09:46 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 13-April 07 From: Houston, Texas Member No.: 11,448 |
Why is it important that said 6 year old buy can or cant fire it? Watch youtube videos, and youll find a few where kids are shooting .50 BMG rounds all day so long as they dont have to actually carry the rifle itself. Fortunately, we're not playing KiddieRun. So you can consider the lack of weapon weights or recoil effects of large weapons acceptable oversight in that a regular infantryman should be able to use these weapons practically. |
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Jan 23 2008, 09:48 PM
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#12
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Oh, damn it, now I'm having campaign ideas. :S |
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Jan 23 2008, 10:08 PM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083 |
Well, in Shadowrun the kids can carry them too. Juggle them if they want, actually. Things are weightless, after all. And there aren't really guidelines for how strong you'd need to be to carry something like a Panther cannon. Strength 3? 4? 6? Who knows. It's all too abstract. Also, I doubt those kids on Youtube are firing from the shoulder, or even the hip, with a gun the size of the Panther cannon. In SR3 that thing was gigantic, and the idea of a child, or even a full grown Dwarf, wielding it was laughable. |
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Jan 23 2008, 10:27 PM
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#14
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Target Group: Members Posts: 71 Joined: 29-July 06 From: Orlando, FL Member No.: 8,981 |
Arnold Schwarzenegger would have a hard time firing it from the shoulder, the gun is does not have an even weight distribution and is really meant to be fired from a prone position. |
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Jan 23 2008, 10:29 PM
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#15
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Target Group: Members Posts: 71 Joined: 29-July 06 From: Orlando, FL Member No.: 8,981 |
Weight they left out intentionally because the developers didn't want it to turn into DnD where you had to micro manage your inventory, because of weight issues. Its left to GM discretion to say hey thats too heavy. |
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Jan 23 2008, 10:32 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 23-February 06 Member No.: 8,301 |
The objection is that there is nothing in the rules to reflect the huge weight/recoil that it's supposed to have, which make it most practically a vehicle/troll-mounted weapon. Fragile elf or troll weightlifter makes no difference in your ability to handle the weapon. That seems wrong (and in conflict with established fluff).
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Jan 23 2008, 10:58 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 13-April 07 From: Houston, Texas Member No.: 11,448 |
The 20mm and the 50BMG rifles CAN be fired from the hip or the shoulder, doesnt mean youre going to want to hold it that way for long (Barret's M82/M107 is something like 30 pounds). The recoil on them isnt all that huge either, as muzzle breaks and internal recoil dampening systems like spring loads on the barrel reduce overall hit.
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Jan 23 2008, 11:22 PM
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#18
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Make a perverse and horrifically violent parody of Home Alone. |
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Jan 23 2008, 11:28 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 22-November 06 Member No.: 9,934 |
they can also drive a citymaster, unrigged, get ware that doesn't have to be replaced as they get older, and fire a sniper rifle at full range without needing to rest it, etc... don't look at one aspect from a different game (sr3/sr4 are too different to be the same game), and get upset, just houserule it if it bothers you that much, we just use common sense. |
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Jan 23 2008, 11:31 PM
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#20
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Well to be fair, the fluff has stated that ware needs replaced as they get older. (Granted, it was Third Edition fluff, but as far as I'm concerned, fluff is fluff and is equally valid across Editions even when the rules say otherwise.) :cyber:
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Jan 23 2008, 11:34 PM
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#21
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...hehhehheh... :vegm: |
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Jan 23 2008, 11:42 PM
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#22
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
only cyber would need replacement i'd say . . bio grows and gene/nano does not have any problems with a body of different size either *g*
as for home alone . . perfectly doable with some mean spirited dwarves with a sick sense of humor and some dumb elves *g* Slip-Spray . . the one fun solution to most everything ^^ |
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Jan 23 2008, 11:55 PM
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#23
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083 |
The thing is, the fluff is SR4 still describes the Panther as the humongous monster gun. Then the rules say that an anorexic elf could dual-wield them. |
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Jan 24 2008, 12:47 AM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 22-November 06 Member No.: 9,934 |
don't the rules state that only SMG's or smaller can be fired one handed? |
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Jan 24 2008, 12:59 AM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 941 Joined: 25-January 07 Member No.: 10,765 |
I don't care what the rules say! I've found my next character!!!
Dual panther weilding anorexic elves fer teh winnah! :love: |
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