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JonathanC
As it appears in the BBB, the Panther Cannon is weightless (like all weapons), and has no particular penalties for size. So essentially, anyone with the Heavy Weapons skill can fire one, especially since the recoil, according to the rules, is negligible. In older editions the Panther was mainly used by Trolls, because nobody else was strong enough. Now, you could have an anemic dwarf lighting people up with this thing, unless there's a rule that I'm missing. Was this ever addressed officially?
Whipstitch
It's adressed mostly by the fact that it's a single shot weapon that's virtually impossible to conceal and fires wildy expensive anti-tank rounds. It'd be realistic if it had more penalties attached, I suppose, but it'd also have very little business being included in the RAW.
Moon-Hawk
Maybe Arsenal will introduce strength minimums per weapon class for unsupported firing. Something like, Assault Cannons/HMGs/MMGs/etc have a minimum Str (or Bod, or Str+Bod) of Blah. For every point less than Blah, you take a -Blah penalty to dice rolls. Or you could make up your own rules.

But no, there's nothing officially forbidding a 6-year-old girl from firing a panther cannon, and she doesn't officially take damage from the recoil. AFAIK, anyway.
JonathanC
Yeah, that's more or less what I meant, Moon-Hawk. I was just really surprised to see that they'd made those changes. I'm all for lightening the bookkeeping aspect of SR, but there's a limit, you know?
Dashifen
I wonder if we could modify the knock back rules for this. Something like if you fire a weapon whose base DV is greater than your Body, you need to make a Body + Strength test to avoid getting knocked on your rear by the recoil. The threshold of the test could be related to the weapon:
  • Tasers, Hold-outs, Light Pistols, Machine Pistols: 1
  • Heavy Pistols, SMGs: 2
  • Assault Rifles, Rifles, Shotties: 3
  • Heavyweapons: 4

Then, burst or full auto could either increase the threshold (+1 and +2 perhaps?) or reduce the die pool.

Thoughts?
Cain
Failing that, we could just assume that the Panther comes with a bipod.
Hank
QUOTE (Dashifen)
I wonder if we could modify the knock back rules for this.  Something like if you fire a weapon whose base DV is greater than your Body, you need to make a Body + Strength test to avoid getting knocked on your rear by the recoil.  The threshold of the test could be related to the weapon:

  • Tasers, Hold-outs, Light Pistols, Machine Pistols:  1
  • Heavy Pistols, SMGs: 2
  • Assault Rifles, Rifles, Shotties: 3
  • Heavyweapons: 4

Then, burst or full auto could either increase the threshold (+1 and +2 perhaps?) or reduce the die pool.

Maybe require a knockdown test if (STR + BOD < DV), so you don't have to make a test everytime your normalish human fires his pistol. Then you can ditch the category dependent thresh-holds and just have the threshhold determined by burst/full-auto.

Same effect, just less dice-rolling. Although now a reasonably hefty human could fire the Panther Cannon without any cyber.

Or have a knockdown test if (BOD < DV), but only apply that rule for Panther Cannons and machine guns. Then you must have a troll to fire the panther cannon, or be heavily cybered.
Starmage21
QUOTE (Hank)
QUOTE (Dashifen)
I wonder if we could modify the knock back rules for this.  Something like if you fire a weapon whose base DV is greater than your Body, you need to make a Body + Strength test to avoid getting knocked on your rear by the recoil.  The threshold of the test could be related to the weapon:


  • Tasers, Hold-outs, Light Pistols, Machine Pistols:  1

  • Heavy Pistols, SMGs: 2

  • Assault Rifles, Rifles, Shotties: 3

  • Heavyweapons: 4


Then, burst or full auto could either increase the threshold (+1 and +2 perhaps?) or reduce the die pool.

Maybe require a knockdown test if (STR + BOD < DV), so you don't have to make a test everytime your normalish human fires his pistol. Then you can ditch the category dependent thresh-holds and just have the threshhold determined by burst/full-auto.

Same effect, just less dice-rolling. Although now a reasonably hefty human could fire the Panther Cannon without any cyber.

Or have a knockdown test if (BOD < DV), but only apply that rule for Panther Cannons and machine guns. Then you must have a troll to fire the panther cannon, or be heavily cybered.

which makes NO sense considering the weapon is designed to be usable by an unaugmented human. The description of the weapon indicates it has tremendous recoil, but since the weapon is single shot, the soldier(or runner) firing the weapon has ~3 whole seconds to obtain another sight picture(of course this is faster for the wired user). If this thing couldnt be fired effectively by the soldiers it was meant for, it wouldnt have gotten the "thumbs up" from the top brass.

Also, "anti-tank ammo" has such a subjective meaning. It could be U-238 armor penetrating round as much as it could be a HEAT round.

When I think of the Panther Assault Cannon(or Panther XXL in SR4's case), I tend to match it with the largest "rifle" type weapons in use today. The ones that might be so big as to not be practical for a man-portable weapon. Say, like a 20mm rifle:
http://www.defensereview.com/stories/anzio...r%20Rifle_4.jpg
JonathanC
...it's still kinda silly that a 6 year old boy could fire it under the current rules.
Exodus
QUOTE (Dashifen)
I wonder if we could modify the knock back rules for this. Something like if you fire a weapon whose base DV is greater than your Body, you need to make a Body + Strength test to avoid getting knocked on your rear by the recoil. The threshold of the test could be related to the weapon:
  • Tasers, Hold-outs, Light Pistols, Machine Pistols: 1
  • Heavy Pistols, SMGs: 2
  • Assault Rifles, Rifles, Shotties: 3
  • Heavyweapons: 4
Then, burst or full auto could either increase the threshold (+1 and +2 perhaps?) or reduce the die pool.

Thoughts?

I don't know how true this idea is, well among Small arms.

Handling Recoil is more skill based than it is based on DV. I shotgun can indeed put you on your ACE, BUT if you know how to shoulder it correctly and have a proper stance, there is practically no way your going to fall on your butt.

I've taken some women out to the Gun Range on a couple of occassions, and while the recoil is troublesome, when they shoulder properly and have a proper stance they will never fall. To manage recoil, in my SxS 12 ga, we use recoil reduction cartridges. Eventually after firing them for a while, you'll get used to the recoil and will be able to Handle the firearm allot better.

Like I said I really think its more skill base than anything else.
Starmage21
QUOTE (JonathanC)
...it's still kinda silly that a 6 year old boy could fire it under the current rules.

Why is it important that said 6 year old buy can or cant fire it? Watch youtube videos, and youll find a few where kids are shooting .50 BMG rounds all day so long as they dont have to actually carry the rifle itself.

Fortunately, we're not playing KiddieRun. So you can consider the lack of weapon weights or recoil effects of large weapons acceptable oversight in that a regular infantryman should be able to use these weapons practically.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Starmage21)
Fortunately, we're not playing KiddieRun.

Oh, damn it, now I'm having campaign ideas. sarcastic.gif
JonathanC
QUOTE (Starmage21)
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Jan 23 2008, 04:37 PM)
...it's still kinda silly that a 6 year old boy could fire it under the current rules.

Why is it important that said 6 year old buy can or cant fire it? Watch youtube videos, and youll find a few where kids are shooting .50 BMG rounds all day so long as they dont have to actually carry the rifle itself.

Fortunately, we're not playing KiddieRun. So you can consider the lack of weapon weights or recoil effects of large weapons acceptable oversight in that a regular infantryman should be able to use these weapons practically.

Well, in Shadowrun the kids can carry them too. Juggle them if they want, actually. Things are weightless, after all. And there aren't really guidelines for how strong you'd need to be to carry something like a Panther cannon. Strength 3? 4? 6? Who knows. It's all too abstract.

Also, I doubt those kids on Youtube are firing from the shoulder, or even the hip, with a gun the size of the Panther cannon. In SR3 that thing was gigantic, and the idea of a child, or even a full grown Dwarf, wielding it was laughable.
Exodus
QUOTE (JonathanC)
Also, I doubt those kids on Youtube are firing from the shoulder, or even the hip, with a gun the size of the Panther cannon. In SR3 that thing was gigantic, and the idea of a child, or even a full grown Dwarf, wielding it was laughable.

Arnold Schwarzenegger would have a hard time firing it from the shoulder, the gun is does not have an even weight distribution and is really meant to be fired from a prone position.
Exodus
QUOTE (JonathanC)
Well, in Shadowrun the kids can carry them too. Juggle them if they want, actually. Things are weightless, after all. And there aren't really guidelines for how strong you'd need to be to carry something like a Panther cannon. Strength 3? 4? 6? Who knows. It's all too abstract.

Weight they left out intentionally because the developers didn't want it to turn into DnD where you had to micro manage your inventory, because of weight issues. Its left to GM discretion to say hey thats too heavy.
Eryk the Red
The objection is that there is nothing in the rules to reflect the huge weight/recoil that it's supposed to have, which make it most practically a vehicle/troll-mounted weapon. Fragile elf or troll weightlifter makes no difference in your ability to handle the weapon. That seems wrong (and in conflict with established fluff).
Starmage21
The 20mm and the 50BMG rifles CAN be fired from the hip or the shoulder, doesnt mean youre going to want to hold it that way for long (Barret's M82/M107 is something like 30 pounds). The recoil on them isnt all that huge either, as muzzle breaks and internal recoil dampening systems like spring loads on the barrel reduce overall hit.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
QUOTE (Starmage21 @ Jan 23 2008, 04:46 PM)
Fortunately, we're not playing KiddieRun.

Oh, damn it, now I'm having campaign ideas. sarcastic.gif

Make a perverse and horrifically violent parody of Home Alone.
djinni
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Jan 23 2008, 04:37 PM)
...it's still kinda silly that a 6 year old boy could fire it under the current rules.

they can also drive a citymaster, unrigged, get ware that doesn't have to be replaced as they get older, and fire a sniper rifle at full range without needing to rest it, etc... don't look at one aspect from a different game (sr3/sr4 are too different to be the same game), and get upset, just houserule it if it bothers you that much, we just use common sense.
Ravor
Well to be fair, the fluff has stated that ware needs replaced as they get older. (Granted, it was Third Edition fluff, but as far as I'm concerned, fluff is fluff and is equally valid across Editions even when the rules say otherwise.) cyber.gif
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Jan 23 2008, 04:48 PM)
QUOTE (Starmage21 @ Jan 23 2008, 04:46 PM)
Fortunately, we're not playing KiddieRun.

Oh, damn it, now I'm having campaign ideas. sarcastic.gif

Make a perverse and horrifically violent parody of Home Alone.

...hehhehheh... vegm.gif
Stahlseele
only cyber would need replacement i'd say . . bio grows and gene/nano does not have any problems with a body of different size either *g*
as for home alone . . perfectly doable with some mean spirited dwarves with a sick sense of humor and some dumb elves *g*
Slip-Spray . . the one fun solution to most everything ^^
JonathanC
QUOTE (djinni)
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Jan 23 2008, 04:37 PM)
...it's still kinda silly that a 6 year old boy could fire it under the current rules.

they can also drive a citymaster, unrigged, get ware that doesn't have to be replaced as they get older, and fire a sniper rifle at full range without needing to rest it, etc... don't look at one aspect from a different game (sr3/sr4 are too different to be the same game), and get upset, just houserule it if it bothers you that much, we just use common sense.

The thing is, the fluff is SR4 still describes the Panther as the humongous monster gun. Then the rules say that an anorexic elf could dual-wield them.
djinni
QUOTE (JonathanC)
The thing is, the fluff is SR4 still describes the Panther as the humongous monster gun. Then the rules say that an anorexic elf could dual-wield them.

don't the rules state that only SMG's or smaller can be fired one handed?
Spike
I don't care what the rules say! I've found my next character!!!


Dual panther weilding anorexic elves fer teh winnah! love.gif
ixombie
I think the rules say that the GM decides who can use a panther cannon. They don't provide weight values or strength requirements. That doesn't mean that neither one exists.

I don't think the panther cannon needs to be nerfed with more requirements. Do people regularly abuse them? No. Why? Horrendous availability, very expensive per shot. There are much better guns for your money. And panther cannons aren't even all that great, especially compared to most autofire weaponry. The only time you really want a panther cannon is when your target has hardened armor. And even then, much of the time a sniper rifle would do the trick, or if it's really heavy a panther cannon won't even work and you'll need a rocket launcher.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Spike)
I don't care what the rules say! I've found my next character!!!


Dual panther weilding anorexic elves fer teh winnah! love.gif

...nah, ten year old girl in a Japanese school uniform. grinbig.gif
djinni
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
...nah, ten year old girl in a Japanese school uniform. grinbig.gif

didn't kill bill have that?
bibliophile20
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Jan 23 2008, 04:48 PM)
QUOTE (Starmage21 @ Jan 23 2008, 04:46 PM)
Fortunately, we're not playing KiddieRun.

Oh, damn it, now I'm having campaign ideas. sarcastic.gif

Make a perverse and horrifically violent parody of Home Alone.

...hehhehheh... vegm.gif

Ooooh... I like it...
Lyonheart
Lack of a listed weight does not make them weightless, just like your troll can't go around armed with a Ares Citymaster strapped to his back, 6yr olds don't get Panther Cannons. Though the Japanese School girl may get a pass it it's that sort of game.
JonathanC
QUOTE (Lyonheart)
Lack of a listed weight does not make them weightless, just like your troll can't go around armed with a Ares Citymaster strapped to his back, 6yr olds don't get Panther Cannons. Though the Japanese School girl may get a pass it it's that sort of game.

And based on what rule are you denying a 6 year old the right to carry a Panther? A Citymaster is a vehicle, and vehicles are never carried by characters. A Panther is a weapon. It has no listed weight. Who's to say that you can't carry one with a strength score of 1? There's no listing for what strength score would be required.
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (JonathanC)
QUOTE (Lyonheart @ Jan 24 2008, 05:21 PM)
Lack of a listed weight does not make them weightless, just like your troll can't go around armed with a Ares Citymaster strapped to his back, 6yr olds don't get Panther Cannons. Though the Japanese School girl may get a pass it it's that sort of game.

And based on what rule are you denying a 6 year old the right to carry a Panther? A Citymaster is a vehicle, and vehicles are never carried by characters. A Panther is a weapon. It has no listed weight. Who's to say that you can't carry one with a strength score of 1? There's no listing for what strength score would be required.

P. 130, under Carrying Gear (emphasis mine):

"As long as your players are reasonable about the carrying
abilities of their characters, there is absolutely no need for the
gamemaster to micromanage weights and encumbrance (and if
they aren’t reasonable, feel free to penalize them appropriately
)."

Sabe?
Shrike30
I just stick with the "don't play Shadowrun with rules lawyers" approach. Works pretty well at filtering out assault-cannon equipped 6 year olds.

SR4 kind of assumes that the players and the GM are on the same page about general "what's reasonable?" kind of questions, or are capable of reaching an agreement should a debate arise. "Can a child use a weapon described as "enormous" and that fires ammunition used in the main gun for tanks?" is one of those questions that, if you're having to ask, would ideally mean that your GM doesn't slap his forehead when he hears it, and goes on to okay it's use after a short, enthusiastic discussion with the rest of the player group about what they want in their game. "Totally!"
Exodus
QUOTE (JonathanC)
QUOTE (Lyonheart @ Jan 24 2008, 05:21 PM)
Lack of a listed weight does not make them weightless, just like your troll can't go around armed with a Ares Citymaster strapped to his back, 6yr olds don't get Panther Cannons. Though the Japanese School girl may get a pass it it's that sort of game.

And based on what rule are you denying a 6 year old the right to carry a Panther? A Citymaster is a vehicle, and vehicles are never carried by characters. A Panther is a weapon. It has no listed weight. Who's to say that you can't carry one with a strength score of 1? There's no listing for what strength score would be required.

Common Sense
Critias
QUOTE (JonathanC)
Who's to say that you can't carry one with a strength score of 1?

*ding ding ding*

"Who is 'The GM,' Alex?"

"Right answer, for four hundred nuyen. The board is yours, pick a category."

"I'm feeling pretty lucky here, Alex. I'll stick with 'Really Easy Gaming Stuff,' and go for eight hundred."
Starmage21
QUOTE (Critias)
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Jan 24 2008, 08:23 PM)
Who's to say that you can't carry one with a strength score of 1?

*ding ding ding*

"Who is 'The GM,' Alex?"

"Right answer, for four hundred nuyen. The board is yours, pick a category."

"I'm feeling pretty lucky here, Alex. I'll stick with 'Really Easy Gaming Stuff,' and go for eight hundred."

I'd say any adult with a strength of even 1 can carry and use a panther cannon, but after a few hours of nonstrenuous activity or a few minutes of strenuous activity(combat) i'd apply the effects of exhaustion.

Strength 1 w/ the infirm negative quality probobly would be the ones having trouble even lifting the thing.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Critias)
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Jan 24 2008, 08:23 PM)
Who's to say that you can't carry one with a strength score of 1?

*ding ding ding*

"Who is 'The GM,' Alex?"

"Right answer, for four hundred nuyen. The board is yours, pick a category."

"I'm feeling pretty lucky here, Alex. I'll stick with 'Really Easy Gaming Stuff,' and go for eight hundred."

Goddammit, Critias. Why did you have to go and put coffee in my nose? That's just mean, man. wink.gif
Kremlin KOA
QUOTE (Lyonheart)
Lack of a listed weight does not make them weightless, just like your troll can't go around armed with a Ares Citymaster strapped to his back, 6yr olds don't get Panther Cannons. Though the Japanese School girl may get a pass it it's that sort of game.

[TANTRUM] But I WAAAANNNNNTT ONE!!!!![/TANTRUM]
Kyoto Kid
...what, the Panther canon or Japanese schoolgirl? grinbig.gif
JonathanC
Everybody is saying common sense, but common sense is generally based on having an idea of the situation. All I know about a Panther cannon is that it's big. So if STR 1 is unreasonable, what about STR 2? Still too small? What about 3? At what point can someone wield one with only one hand? STR 10? 12?

There are absolutely no guidelines to go by. And nothing to base recoil modifiers off of, even though the fluff text suggests that the gun has huge recoil. At this point the game rules (Panther has no recoil mod) conflict with what the gun's description is telling you. So what's the common sense answer when the rulebook is arguing with itself?
Dashifen
QUOTE (JonathanC)
There are absolutely no guidelines to go by. And nothing to base recoil modifiers off of, even though the fluff text suggests that the gun has huge recoil. At this point the game rules (Panther has no recoil mod) conflict with what the gun's description is telling you. So what's the common sense answer when the rulebook is arguing with itself?

But why does there need to be? No one is going to know if your game is different from mine (unless we compare notes or our players do) and, probably, no one is going to care.
DireRadiant
There's no mechanical restriction in the rules. So a STR 1 character can carry and fire a Panther Cannon.

If you want to add or modify or change the mechanics to satisfy yourself and your players, go for it.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (djinni)
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Jan 23 2008, 09:41 PM)
...nah, ten year old girl in a Japanese school uniform.  grinbig.gif

didn't kill bill have that?

...yeah, but she had a spiked ball on a chain that she swung around.

House of Blue Leaves
Eryk the Red
I think "do whatever you want" is a decidedly unhelpful answer. The issue is that it's hard to come up with a common sense solution when there's no frame of reference for such a solution.

That said, I dunno. I've not had to make a rule on it because the only character in my game who's tried to pick up an assault cannon is the two-ton troll. (It should be noted that in my game, assault cannons are more powerful and the book stats are actually representative of anti-materiel rifles.) If it came down to it, I'd probably pick a Strength rating, like 8 or 10, and say you get -1 or -2 to attack rolls for each Strength point by which you fall short.

But that's just an ass-pull, as any rule of this nature would be, since there's really no rules about weapon size. There's weapons that people can use without problems, and presumably there's weapons that don't work like that (like artillery, not that there are or should be rules for that). But there's nothing in the middle.
DireRadiant
No Rules --> Some Rules --> More Rules --> Even More Rules --> Rules for Everything.
No Book --> Small Book --> SR4 Book --> Huge $$$ Book --> No Book.

By explicitly choosing open base mechanics and a relatively consistent resolution engine the game authors have empowered the GM and Players to play the game as they please within a common framework for all the players.

We can add weights and recoil crunchiness to the game, a few pages here and there, and frankly some people, including myself would throw it out and ignore it in their games. So you can make everyone pay for stuff only some would use, or provide a base consistency and allow everyone to enhance it as they please to satisfy their individual and disparate needs.

It's up to the GM, or a full SR4 recall and reprint and redistribution!

And frankly the vast majority of any game session is created by the GM, I constantly find myself lamenting the lack of metahuman psychological, sociological and pathological characterization and behavioral information in the main rule book. It causes me severe problems in figuring out how the NPC s are supposed to act, can we add that to the rule book please? Needs an errata!

I still say you do whatever you want. It doesn't affect me, it might help you.

Now if you want to have a rule published to make me do what you want, well, then we'll need to have a little chat about that.
Aaron
If only there were some sort of person to act as a guide or leader for the game, a sort of "game master" if you will, that could be relied upon to make judgment calls of this sort.
JonathanC
If only there was a book, a...rulebook, if you will, that gave the Gamemaster some vague idea on which to build his rulings. Hmm....
Dashifen
There is. That it doesn't have exactly what you're looking for doesn't mean that it doesn't provide you with a foundation from which to build the game you want to play. One of the great strengths of the SR4 system is its flexibility. Too many more rules and you lose that flexibility.
JonathanC
So, what part of the book provides the information I'd need to guesstimate what kind of strength you'd need to fire a Panther Assault cannon? And what about the recoil? If I apply recoil modifiers, I'm technically countermanding the rules. If I don't, I'm going against what's in the flavor text.
cx2
Some people seem to have a problem with the idea of "GM approval" being a de facto mechanic.

I have never seen a rocket launcher other than on TV and in computer games, I know very little about them. I know this much - they are a fairly big size and definitely not somehting I would like to lug around. On this basis, and on the basis of what a particular campaign is like I could make an educated guess on what is reasonable for someone to carry a rocket launcher. Similar enough with a Panther, don't overthink things. The moment you overthink you complicate the rules far too much for any rulebook to handle entirely without turning it into something more akin to a tabletop wargame than an RPG.

Or to be more simple - a GM doesn't need to make his mind up about what requirement there is unless someone is an idiot about it.
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