 Confused on: Bunraku, One word, multiple meanings? |
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 Jan 29 2008, 11:14 PM
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#76
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Immoral Elf  Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486  |
I disagree entirely. While I do think there will be some quite classy Bunraku parlours, that doesn't mean the hostesses are altogether willing participants. I think by far the majority of these types of places will be stocked with the less-than-willing. Less-than-willing does not have to mean kidnap victims. There are many sources for this type of work, must as there are sources for protitution and human slavery today. This is even easier, because you can program the person not to rebel against your authority.
Still waiting for that quote that states that prostitution is illegal in the UCAS, or indeed anywhere in the Sixth World. Bunraku parlours have been mentioned quite a few times throughout Shadowrun's history, so I don't think they are anywhere near as uncommon as some people seem to think. |
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Jan 29 2008, 11:42 PM
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#77
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
even if you assume that prostitution is illegal in the UCAS (i think it would be, or would at least be regulated such that bunraku parlors would be illegal), it's not like that's going to stop any OC syndicate from running brothels of any sort. there are plenty of options available: at the high end, they could rent extraterritorial land from a megacorporate holding; for the midrange, they can simply portray themselves as escort services, just like today; at the low end, they can simply keep out of sight, maybe even move around some--advertising is done through word-of-mouth and message boards.
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Jan 30 2008, 12:36 AM
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#78
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083 |
Clothing manufacture is legal too, but sweatshops still get raided. |
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Jan 30 2008, 12:39 AM
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#79
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
not often enough to impact the sweatshop industry.
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Jan 30 2008, 12:46 AM
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#80
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083 |
Often enough to make them keep their heads down. Bunraku Parlors are practically in the phone book. They advertise, for crying out loud. If prostitution is legal, then prostitution is regulated...it would have to be, because it's a disease vector. I don't think there's enough payola to make an entire government overlook a systematic cybernetic slavery ring that operates in broad daylight. Lets be friggin' realistic here.
If it's primarily unwilling, then the supposed openness of Bunraku Parlors is ridiculous. And if it's based on Neuromancer, then it would make sense that they're actually being paid for what they're doing, rather than just being mindslaves. Besides, you make more money off of poor people than you do off of slaves. |
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Jan 30 2008, 12:48 AM
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#81
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
:proof: Remember too that a lot of women in Shadowrun are likely smuggled in from other places because slaves are cheaper or they could be refugees or simply SINless people working off debts in the parlor. Even if prostitution is legal in an area, smuggling in or otherwise taking advantage of SINless and keeping them in a shitty situation usually isn't (although, then again, nobody's particularly interested in prosecuting either, since nobody gives a shit about the SINless). Why do you think it always seems to be groups like the Triads, Vory and Yaks who are in on this? They have connections and applying enough pressure to ensure "cooperation" is both their specialty and what seperates them from legitimate groups. Anyway, there's way too many variables involved to make many blanket statements and I honestly don't think the devs are too interested in spending pages upon pages on Bunraku economics when that's really something best left to individual GMs. It's a really seedy topic to begin with, so it's entirely appropriate that individual groups make the decisions on exactly how far the rabbit hole goes. This post has been edited by Whipstitch: Jan 30 2008, 01:02 AM |
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Jan 30 2008, 12:52 AM
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#82
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I want to see proof as well. The only time I even hear about a raid like this is when someone like Oprah does a special. Even then, the aftermath isn't very damaging to the company.
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Jan 30 2008, 01:40 AM
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#83
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
yeah, and plenty of 'escort services' advertise too. they just don't advertise things like "WE GIVE YOU SEX FOR MONEY". if you go to a men's club and all the women there look like Nadja Daviar, nobody needs to tell you that you can have sex with Nadja Daviar for a hundred bucks. deniability is a wonderful thing. besides, bunraku parlors aren't high-profile crime. nobody cares what happens to lost runaways. especially if, as i mentioned above, the syndicates do the smart thing and import all their 'talent', while exporting their own kidnapees elsewhere. it works in the real world, i see no reason why it wouldn't in SR. |
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Jan 30 2008, 03:29 AM
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#84
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 640 Joined: 8-October 07 Member No.: 13,611 |
Not just look like. Close as I can tell, with the level of genetech in Augmentation they could very easily be Nadja Daviar genetically. That would be swell. |
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Jan 30 2008, 03:39 AM
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#85
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
I guess I just don't see the point in going to the expense of genetic surgery when body sculpting is just so much cheaper, especially when fads might change and some other ultra-hot chica is in style.
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Jan 30 2008, 04:05 AM
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#86
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
Nadja's large brown nipples will never go out of style.
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Jan 30 2008, 04:12 AM
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#87
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
I certainly can imagine a bunraku customer loudly complaining to the properitor that his Nadja nipples are the wrong color. |
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Jan 30 2008, 04:25 AM
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#88
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 602 Joined: 2-December 07 From: The corner of Detonation Boulevard and Fascination Street Member No.: 14,464 |
sex sells . always has , always will. Good, bad or ugly(and believe me I've seen some ugly) :D thats the way it is.
benraku parlors might be upper class or street level but as long as someone is willing to pay for the service they will be part of the world(real or otherwise ) that we live in. you ask any hustler on the street why their out there, they will tell you its cause you cant turn 500 to 1000 bucks a night flipping burgers at McHugh's . money talks. I lost one of my favorite characters in a benraku parlor, a dwarf coyote shaman. got a bad case of morals and tried to take out a yak enforcer. never take a stunbolt to a dikote katana fight.(grin)messy, very messy. ok, I'm rambling. Must...get...to..coffee....pot....can't...hold...out ...much ...longer! :wobble: |
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Jan 30 2008, 08:30 AM
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#89
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i just... i avoided addressing these three sentences because i wasn't sure i could directly respond without it coming off as a personal attack. but it's 3am, and this has been niggling around in the back of my mind all day. so let me try and defuse a situation before it starts by stating, for the record, that i don't hold it against JonathanC for being uninformed in this regard. there are a lot of people who are uninformed. this isn't something that most people want to have knowledge of, so they simply don't ever find out about it. now, with that out of the way: minus the cybernetics, this is exactly what's happening all over the fucking world, every minute of every god damned day. and don't let the "all over the world" part fool you: the US is both a consumer and a provider of trafficked humans. that's what it's generally called--human trafficking, in the sense that one might traffic in produce or arms or drugs. it's a nice way of saying slavery. in some cases, it's pretty overt--gangs of armed men go around grabbing poor people and trading them up the chain for money, drugs, and weapons. in other cases, it's handled less thuggishly: someone reads about a opportunity to teach their native language to kids in another country, all up front expenses paid in return for a percentage of their wages once they arrive--but when they do arrive, they find themselves alone in a foreign country, and the man they just handed their passport to "for safe keeping" is talking about how there aren't any teaching positions open just yet, but hey, you're a healthy girl, i know this nightclub... "there isn't enough payola"? wake the fuck up, for chrissake. there's always enough goddamn payola. the global sex industry makes billions and billions of dollars, and it's always hungry for more. if it can't find willing participants, there is more than enough money there to buy fresh meat. Seoul, Hong Kong, LA--you can't spit in some cities without hitting three girls who were brought there from another country, either under false pretenses or coercion, to have sex with strangers for money. and that's today. that's right the fuck now. that's without corporate extraterritoriality, that's without criminal syndicates backed by draconic wealth, that's without the ridiculously overblown moral decay that sci-fi authors use to make their dark futures palatable. this is what people do to each other. |
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Jan 30 2008, 08:42 AM
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#90
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 640 Joined: 8-October 07 Member No.: 13,611 |
I didn't say it would be widely used. Just that it is a possibility. I have no doubt that there are niche customers who would be very particular in what they want, and can afford it. In a world today where there are restaurants that have salt and butter courses, and even such that some go so far to distinguish and emphasize the cow that the butter came from, that a true connoisseur would demand the highest quality imaginable, and pay for it. To take Daviar for example, I can think that there are people who can and do pay for the experience of having a night with someone who is genesculpted, bodysculpted, and mentally programmed to be in all aspects that woman. Does it cost a lot to make sure she is identical, or as close to it as is humanly possible down to her natural body odor and kinesiology? Yes. Is is worth it to get the "formula" down for maybe twenty in all of North America, and fifty in the world? I have no doubt it would be. Maybe someone wants to enjoy the best bunkraku money can buy. Maybe some syndicate got their hands on the guinea pig that was used to make sure the actress whose career was made playing her as accurately as possible was as close as possible. Maybe ... whatever. I had a specific concept of an Archconservative Senator who became so obsessed with hating her for being a foreign-born elf who was a great dragon's translator and... everything else... that every week he would meet with such a simulacra and do things to her. |
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Jan 30 2008, 03:15 PM
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#91
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
I'm reminded of voodoo parlors, for some reason, and secondly Bioshock: "would you kindly unlock Dunkelzahn's safe?" |
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Jan 30 2008, 09:45 PM
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#92
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083 |
I'm aware of the proliferation of human trafficking. I'm aware of the brothels that make use of it. The major difference is that Bunraku parlors are portrayed as being reasonably mainstream, easy to find, and most of all, *they advertise*. If Bunraku Parlors were something you had to be 'in the know' to find, or at least on the street to find, that would be one thing. If they have AR advertisements directing you to your local parlor, that's something else entirely. You don't walk down the street and see billboards for brothels featuring eastern european sex slaves. Read exactly what I was saying instead of latching onto a small part of it. NO, there is NOT enough payola to protect an operation like that that does NOTHING to protect itself from scrutiny. The key aspect of human trafficking that makes it so hard to nail down is that the places are mobile and cheap. You can set one up or break the operation down and flee very quickly. You don't set up a real location with setpieces designed to match whoever the girl is dressed up as, and you certainly don't have a full-service fucking MEDICAL FACILITY to put her through 20k+ in surgery. |
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Jan 30 2008, 10:05 PM
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#93
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i'm not sure we're on the same page, as far as advertising and publicity goes. please point me to an example of what you're talking about.
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Jan 30 2008, 10:19 PM
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#94
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
With AR Environments and 2070 level technology, bunraku operations are pocket sized. A cardboard box could become the Oval Office, and nanite cosmetic surgery is, at worst, van-portable. Skillwires wouldn't be needed for all but the most insanely expensive parlors, the type that likely can afford near-extraterritorial treatment - such as renting tribal land from the Cascade Crow (using one of the many abandoned resorts as a cover). |
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Jan 30 2008, 10:53 PM
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#95
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 640 Joined: 8-October 07 Member No.: 13,611 |
Why do you need skillwires? I thought personafix chips were just special BTL chips. Since when do you need wires to play BTLs?
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Jan 30 2008, 11:05 PM
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#96
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
because if i tell you you're a pilot that still does not mean you can fly a plane . .
the wires would be me telling you that you're the pilot while guiding your hands and telling you how to do things so you actually CAN fly the plane . . |
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Jan 30 2008, 11:07 PM
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#97
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
IIRC, you don't need skillwires to use p'fix chips, only to perfectly mimic the singing talent of Nina Simone, or the combat abilities of that year's Desert Wars gold medalist... You don't even need a datajack for most of the parlors' needs. It's only the most rare of clients who'd require that level of joytoy. This post has been edited by Kanada Ten: Jan 30 2008, 11:10 PM |
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Jan 30 2008, 11:09 PM
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#98
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083 |
Skillwires are needed in order for the puppet to move like the person they're impersonating. There are limits to what a plain chip can do. As it is, they require extra hardware so that the chip can actually control the target's mind (hardware that, to my knowledge, has not been priced in the BBB or Augmentation), but chips just contain information that your brain accesses. If you want that info to actually control your body (and really, what good is a Nadja Daviar puppet that doesn't walk right, or have her facial expressions?) you need skillwires.
A knowsoft about mechanics doesn't really help that much when your car breaks down; you need a skillsoft. It's the same situation here. Every discussion of Bunraku I've seen in the books (BBB, that crime syndicate book from 2nd edition) seems to suggest that these places are very easy to find. Everybody knows about them, talks about them, and knows where to find them. While most of us here are aware of human trafficking rings, I certainly couldn't point you in the direction of your friendly neighborhood slaver. They keep their heads down. The only people who know about them are people who are involved, interested in the product, or about one degree of separation from one of the above. And really, why is it so hard to believe that it'd be difficult to find willing participants? It's creepy and disturbing, but we're talking about a future where people shove chips into their brains to overstimulate their pleasure centers to dangerous levels. A world where people intentionally saw off healthy body parts to get new "better" ones made out of metal or grown in a lab. We already have people who "willingly" (that is, usually drug dependent or forced by economic necessity) work in prostitution...I'd think a variant on the job where you don't even remember what the hell it is you did might appeal to someone desperate enough to work that kind of job. Recruitment is a lot cheaper than kidnapping people or buying war orphans. |
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Jan 30 2008, 11:15 PM
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#99
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
something nobody brought up yet . . the chance of getting out with the stuff in you . .
IF by Chance it happens . . well heck, get some chips and you can basically get any job available, because with some slots you CAN in fact do it . . |
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Jan 30 2008, 11:19 PM
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#100
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
hey. JonathanC. example. by my count, this is something like the third time you've been asked.
my reading has always been that bunraku parlors are no more open than any modern escort service or strip club. if you have evidence to the contrary, it'd be nice to see it. |
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