To Build Jason Bourne..., Defining the Bourne Identity Options

[nezumi]

It's strictly legal :) Honestly, it's a pretty tall order. Bourne was clearly pretty close to the peak of his abilities when the stories started, so using little cheats to reach that seemed reasonable, all things considering (however, if he didn't have amnesia and therefore actually KNEW his spell list, I'd disallow them in a heartbeat. The character basically sucked for the entire game as he had no idea what he was any good at.)

[Fortune]

[TheOneRonin]

Wow...didn't take long for this thread to fall off the map...

[Critias]

I'd say the changeover (and the smooshing together of the SR and SR4 forums) probably made a lot of threads get bumped off the front page.

In vaguely related news, I just watched a few trailers for the upcoming Bourne Conspiracy game. It looks pretty sharp. They've even got Jeff Imada (the fight coordinator from the movies) in on it, and some pretty wicked looking fight animations.

[Grinder]

At least it wasn't derailed by off topic-chatter. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[TheOneRonin]

I'd say the changeover (and the smooshing together of the SR and SR4 forums) probably made a lot of threads get bumped off the front page.

In vaguely related news, I just watched a few trailers for the upcoming Bourne Conspiracy game. It looks pretty sharp. They've even got Jeff Imada (the fight coordinator from the movies) in on it, and some pretty wicked looking fight animations.

Yeah, I watched the latest game trailer for it and have read a few IGN articles about it. The graphics seem a little subpar for a 360, but it's just about the best looking hand-to-hand combat I've seen in a non-fighting game.

Here is a bit about what IGN says about the fighting:

"At one point, three militia men surrounded Bourne, the adrenaline meter was activated, and time slowed as button icons began popping up. The player hit the button onscreen, and Bourne rocked a dude with a devastating punch to the face that left the villain spewing blood. Another button popped up, and Bourne threw an elbow over his shoulder and into the next baddie. Another button, and another bone-rattling attack. If one of those buttons had been flubbed, the fight would have gone back to the regular brawling mode."

Sounds like the mini-game will make some of Bourne's signature moves easier to pull off, though, in my experience, when you are watching for which button to push, you can't exactly enjoy the animations happening on screen.

To bring this back OT, what sort of hand-to-hand skill level do you think Bourne would have in SR4? Sure, in the movies he did seem to be VERY skilled, but most of his opponents were relatively unskilled, or with what would equate to fairly low dicepools. The only skilled opponent he faced in the first movie was the Assassin in France, and while he won that fight, he didn't dominate it like he did his other fights. So we are probably looking at maybe a 2-3 dice difference in pools in that particular fight. On the other hand, the fight with the swiss cops (can you even call it a fight?), and the combat at the Embassy were both VERY one-sided.

What do you all think?

[Grinder]

2-3 seems adequate to me, yes.

[Critias]

I'd pin him at a solid 6 in SR4, an 8-9 in SR3. Even with surprise on his side (which I'd say he had in a few of his mook-sweeping-up encounters) it'd be pretty tough to get those one and two shot KOs, otherwise. We're obviously meant to leave with the feeling that he's among the world's most dangerous hand to hand combatants, so I'd even say Aptitude might not be out of the question.

Against the other assassins? Well, that's where there's an awful lot of back and forth, with both heavily skilled and augmented fighters, both ready and aware of the incoming attacks, slinging a bunch of dice and just generally having a good brawl.

[Grinder]

Odd, I've never had the impression that Mr. Bourne is one the best (skilled) hand-to-hand combatants in the world.

[Critias]

It's an impression I may've gotten from the books as much as the films, but it's an impression I received nevertheless.

I, at the very least, don't think we're supposed to classify him as an untrained or pitiful combatant. In multiple scenes, he (pretty much effortlessly) incapacitates two or more police officers, Marines, field agents for the CIA, security agents of various types, etc, etc, in a matter of 3-4 seconds (if that). Assuming those sort of professional asskickers all have a 2-4 or so themselves in Unarmed Combat, along with respectable physical attributes (for an NPC), that's pretty impressive stuff.

If not towards the top end (but not boosted full-on into the inhuman levels of skill granted by augmentations allow in Shadowrun) of the spectrum, where would you place his Unarmed/Melee ability?

[Grinder]

As I said, in the range of a skill of 2-3, maybe backed up with bio/cyber/magic (depending on the build), but not higher. But as our impression of his combat abilities is very different (mine coming from the movies and not the books, which may be an important factor), I'm eager to read what other posters think of this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[TheOneRonin]

While I don't completely agree with Critias's evaluation of the hand-to-hand skill levels of Bourne's opponents, I completely agree that a skill level of 2-3 is woefully low and very unrepresentative of what we see in the Bourne Films (specifically the first one, since that's the one I'm most familiar with). We do see him rapidly taking down multiple attackers in short periods of time. I just don't think someone with a 3 in unarmed combat, or even a 3 in the close combat skill group able to consistently pull that off. It MIGHT be possible if Bourne had in-human levels of Agility (7+), but we don't see anything on the screen that would lead us to believe he is THAT nimble.

World-class might be pushing it, but I do get the impression that you'd have to look really hard to find someone better...and a ten-year, two-classes-a-week dojo blackbelt probably wouldn't last 2 seconds against him.

[TheOneRonin]

As I said, in the range of a skill of 2-3, maybe backed up with bio/cyber/magic (depending on the build), but not higher. But as our impression of his combat abilities is very different (mine coming from the movies and not the books, which may be an important factor), I'm eager to read what other posters think of this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

One thing that might help us understand how you rate Bourne's skills is by giving some Movie/TV examples of characters that would say exhibit martial skills superior to Bourne. We'd probably get a better understanding of your mindset if your examples exclude supernatural/magical/high-fantasy levels of skill, since we didn't see anything of that nature in the Bourne movies. Apples to apples, and such.

[Critias]

Well, to clarify, my impression of him comes from both the movies and the books. From the movies, I'm able to see what he's doing, recognize a move or two from my own experience, but appreciate the speed and power he's obviously meant to be displaying (at least where it's not overwhelmed by their shaking camera). When a trained assassin swings through a window at a character with his submachinegun and knife, and that character kicks his ass despite being surprised (and not having a submachinegun and knife of his own), I'm able to think to myself "Golly, I bet this character is supposed to be pretty good at melee combat."

I know in the books they outright state in a few places that he's one of the deadliest hand-to-hand combatants in the world. In one instance that really jumps out, he is handily capable of taking on a large Asian region's known best hand-to-hand combatant, while two times that person's age. Obviously the fight scenes as described aren't as visually appealing as the movies (not the least of which because I just don't like how Ludlum describes fight scenes), but when you've got Bourne pushing sixty and taking out, one on one, a guy who's the best hand-to-hand fighter in Hong Kong (or where ever it was), that leaves an impression. Best, flat out, in a large urban area (particularly one with a rich tradition for hand to hand combat, where blades and hands settle disputes rather than firearms)? That's pretty serious stuff.

If a human NPC (without genetech to help aid against the ravages of aging), pushing sixty, were to look one of your characters square in the eye in a game and honestly say "I took out the best fighter in the Seattle Sprawl, hand to hand" even ignoring all the other stuff (again, taking out several mid-skill combatants in one round, stuff like that) I know that guy had done... well, I know my characters would be impressed enough to think he's got a skill quite a bit higher than a 2-3.

Now, sure, with most of my PCs it would just mean they think "okay, I'll shoot this guy instead of try to kick him to death," but the point would stand. I wouldn't be earmarking him at a 2-3 skill.

One character would say "No you didn't, because I'm still sitting here talking to you," but that's just 'cause Connor's got an ego like most folks wouldn't believe, and about a half dozen combat skills that are nearing the double-digits before any augmentation.

[TheOneRonin]

I don't have the same familiarity with the books the Critias does, but yeah, that info pretty much solidifies it. And I DO think that's the impression the director/choreographer were both trying to deliver. Apparently, they weren't 100% successful. I blame Matt Damon.

[TheOneRonin]

Here is a compilation of some of the fight scenes across the three movies for those who haven't seen them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DzYZQrdALw...feature=related

[Grinder]

One thing that might help us understand how you rate Bourne's skills is by giving some Movie/TV examples of characters that would say exhibit martial skills superior to Bourne. We'd probably get a better understanding of your mindset if your examples exclude supernatural/magical/high-fantasy levels of skill, since we didn't see anything of that nature in the Bourne movies. Apples to apples, and such.

The SR4 corebook gives us:

Rating 4 Veteran

Very good at what you do; can handle difficult tasks with ease.

Firearms Example: Riot control cop, combat veteran, superior regular force (Marines, Airborne)

Rating 5 Expert

Star status: your expertise gives you a reputation.

Firearms Example: SWAT team, elite military (Rangers, Special Forces)

Rating 6 Elite

The “best of the rest.� Maximum skill level for “rank-and-file� unnamed NPCs and starting characters.

Firearms Example: Individual superstars amongst elite forces. Ghost-Who-Walks-Inside, Hatchetman, Matador

Rating 7 Legendary

The “best of the best� Someone whose expertise outranks all others in all of known history. Can only be achieved

with the Aptitude Quality (p. 77).

Firearms Example: “Wild Bill� Hickock, James Bond, Thunder Tyee

James Bond, given as an example for truly super-human skill, is imo too far away from Jason Bourne. But seeing that Rating 4 is labeled "Veteran", it's ok for me to put him in this category. I wasn't sure completly if rating 3 is already veteran, so I stand corrected now.

Well, to clarify, my impression of him comes from both the movies and the books. From the movies, I'm able to see what he's doing, recognize a move or two from my own experience, but appreciate the speed and power he's obviously meant to be displaying (at least where it's not overwhelmed by their shaking camera). When a trained assassin swings through a window at a character with his submachinegun and knife, and that character kicks his ass despite being surprised (and not having a submachinegun and knife of his own), I'm able to think to myself "Golly, I bet this character is supposed to be pretty good at melee combat."


If a human NPC (without genetech to help aid against the ravages of aging), pushing sixty, were to look one of your characters square in the eye in a game and honestly say "I took out the best fighter in the Seattle Sprawl, hand to hand" even ignoring all the other stuff (again, taking out several mid-skill combatants in one round, stuff like that) I know that guy had done... well, I know my characters would be impressed enough to think he's got a skill quite a bit higher than a 2-3.

Ok, you beat me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I watched the youtube-link which had been posted here and have to agree that Bourne is a well-skilled fighter, which added to the fact that Rating 4 is described as Veteran, brings us to a skill leve of 4 fro him. Maybe even 5, but not higher.

[TheOneRonin]

The SR4 corebook gives us:

Rating 4 Veteran

Very good at what you do; can handle difficult tasks with ease.

Firearms Example: Riot control cop, combat veteran, superior regular force (Marines, Airborne)

Rating 5 Expert

Star status: your expertise gives you a reputation.

Firearms Example: SWAT team, elite military (Rangers, Special Forces)

Rating 6 Elite

The “best of the rest.� Maximum skill level for “rank-and-file� unnamed NPCs and starting characters.

Firearms Example: Individual superstars amongst elite forces. Ghost-Who-Walks-Inside, Hatchetman, Matador

Rating 7 Legendary

The “best of the best� Someone whose expertise outranks all others in all of known history. Can only be achieved

with the Aptitude Quality (p. 77).

Firearms Example: “Wild Bill� Hickock, James Bond, Thunder Tyee

James Bond, given as an example for truly super-human skill, is imo too far away from Jason Bourne. But seeing that Rating 4 is labeled "Veteran", it's ok for me to put him in this category. I wasn't sure completly if rating 3 is already veteran, so I stand corrected now.

The "James Bond" example is complete crap. I've watched every Bond film that's been released, and I've never seen anything that would lead me to believe is any more competent with a firearm than any other British Secret Service agent, much less on par with Bill Hickock. I shook my head when I read that in the main book, and continue to do so every time I see it quoted. Oh, and based on what we see in the movies, if James Bond has a 7 in Firearms, then so does Bourne, because they both display roughly the same skill level when it comes to shooting (and hitting) the badguys.

Ok, you beat me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I watched the youtube-link which had been posted here and have to agree that Bourne is a well-skilled fighter, which added to the fact that Rating 4 is described as Veteran, brings us to a skill leve of 4 fro him. Maybe even 5, but not higher.

That's cool, but could you give us some examples of movie/TV characters that you believe are BETTER? The only ones that come to mind for me are MAYBE Jet Li (Fist of Legend) or Rongguang Yu/Donnie Yen (Iron Monkey). And even then, those movies have enough wire-fu in them to disqualify them from the comparison.

[Grinder]

The "James Bond" example is complete crap. I've watched every Bond film that's been released, and I've never seen anything that would lead me to believe is any more competent with a firearm than any other British Secret Service agent, much less on par with Bill Hickock. I shook my head when I read that in the main book, and continue to do so every time I see it quoted. Oh, and based on what we see in the movies, if James Bond has a 7 in Firearms, then so does Bourne, because they both display roughly the same skill level when it comes to shooting (and hitting) the badguys.

I've never been a huge fan of James Bond, so I can't say very much about his combat skills shown in the movies. All I know is that he wins every fight. Sort of. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
But you're speaking of firearms in your post, while I was talking about unarmed combat only.

That's cool, but could you give us some examples of movie/TV characters that you believe are BETTER? The only ones that come to mind for me are MAYBE Jet Li (Fist of Legend) or Rongguang Yu/Donnie Yen (Iron Monkey). And even then, those movies have enough wire-fu in them to disqualify them from the comparison.

What about Jackie Chan? And of course Chuck Norris. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
To be honest: at the moment I don't have any more ideas beside the two guys, but with some time to go through my movie collection, I may find one or two examples. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Whipstitch]

Jason Bourne is clearly one of the the most dominant hand to hand fighters in the setting he exists in. I really don't know what else you can say; in the context he's presented in he's top tier. He's got a 5, minimum, since he certainly qualifies for elite force superstar in a variety of skills and he handily defeats mooks extremely quickly despite "Friends in melee bonuses."

[TheOneRonin]

I've never been a huge fan of James Bond, so I can't say very much about his combat skills shown in the movies. All I know is that he wins every fight. Sort of. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
But you're speaking of firearms in your post, while I was talking about unarmed combat only.

I'm only speaking of Firearms because the text you quoted from the BBB gives Bond a 7 in FIREARMS, not a 7 in unarmed combat. The main book says nothing about Bond's unarmed combat skill. If you think the unarmed skills he displays in the movies are indicative of Unarmed 7, then Bourne should be 9 or 10. Of course, my take is that Bond has to use some of his rank 6 or 7 Edge in just about every hand-to-hand fight he gets into to win. But that's just my opinion.

What about Jackie Chan? And of course Chuck Norris. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
To be honest: at the moment I don't have any more ideas beside the two guys, but with some time to go through my movie collection, I may find one or two examples. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That's fair, and I would be thrilled to see what you come up with after reviewing your collection. Chuck has never done anything onscreen that really impresses me (though he could thoroughly whoop my ass), and Jackie Chan, while an immensely skilled individual, doesn't often play the "bad-ass" sort of character. Indeed, most the skills we see him display on-screen are evasion skills with a significant injection of Kung-fu.

And to clarify, I'm speaking more of a character portrayed on film, rather than a particular actor. No doubt Jackie Chan could quite effortlessly beat the dog shit out of Matt Damon, but I would easily bet on "Jason Bourne" in a fight between him and Chan's "Inspector Lee" from the "Rush Hour" franchise.

[Apathy]

Bourne's close combat skill in the books is portrayed as at least expert, and possibly elite.

Opinions might vary as to whether that's well depicted in the movies. The movies show him easily overcome groups of 2-4 verteran (possibly expert) attackers (cia operatives, assasins, policemen, etc.). I'm not sure what else they could have done with the movie scenes to portray expertise better. (Other than the obvious approach of hiring a more proficient martial artist for the role instead of an actor.)

[kigmatzomat]

I think the important thing with Bourne, from my limited recollection of reading the first book two many years ago and catching fragments of the movie on DVD, is that he is exceptional within his class. If you look at the other elite agency assassins they would have agility/reaction stats of 4-5 (high end) and unarmed/firearm skills of 5 (special forces equivalent).

Now remember that Bourne is better than they are. It could be he has an Edge of 7 and uses the extra dice liberally or that his skill/stats are 6 with specializations or that he's a spike-baby physad with improved initiative, combat sense, killing hands, and improved unarmed combat.

[Grinder]

Ok, I just had a chat with some friends of mine (while watching "Hot Rod" - great movie (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ) and none of us could come up with a movie character that is portrayed as a super-human close combat fighter.
That said, I stand corrected (again) and have to admit that Jason Bourne is probably a fucking good combatant, so let's continue and build him. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[bluedragon7]

In a regular 400 BP Game and before Karma i'd give him:

Close combat group 4

(if you do his other skills with skillwires you also can have: clubs(martialarts)4+2 blades(MA) 4+2 and unarmed (MA) 6+2)

Agility 7 (including 2 levels Muscle-Toner)
Edge 6

2 Levels Kali (+1Die to called shot to Disarm, and may inflict damage with disarm)
1 Level Krav Maga (+1Die to called shot to Disarm)

This allowes for 6 Maneuvers:
Clinch, Disarm, Multistrike, Set-Up, Sweep, Watchfull Guard

Could make him an Adept with a mixture of counterstrike, improved Unarmed and critical strike