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TheOneRonin
Coming on the heels of the successful "To Build a Green Beret..." thread, I figured I post another gaming exercise for the Dumpshock community.

If you haven't read the Ludlum books, or seen the Bourne movies (you need to watch the first one), you can probably skip this thread.

However, if you have had exposure to the "Bourne-verse", welcome to "Build-a-Bourne".

Let me define what I'm looking for. I'd like to see a representation of the skills, training, and abilities that are portrayed by "Jason Bourne" in the movies. The books change around a quite a few things (like Bourne's previous AO, language skills, background, etc), but for the most part, the movies stay true to his skills. How would such a character look in 2070 Shadowrun? Let's see what the Dumpshock community thinks.


Like I said in the last thread, something else that would be neat, but not 100% required, is a short blurb stating your motivation behind the skills/attributes/ware you picked. It would really help me get some insight into your methods.


I'd like the characters to be built as close to RAW as possible, with the following considerations:

-All SR4 books out there are allowed as resources.

-Try to properly reflect the skills we see on screen/in writing, as well as other skills we may not have seen/read but that he would almost HAVE to have to do what he does.

-Character should be capable blending in and practically disappearing in a crowd. He should also be able to move around relatively unhindered, and without likely drawing too much a attention. A wired troll that can't pass through basic airport security would not make a very good Bourne.

-No build point limit. Spend as many points as you think would make sense for this type of character.

-Money is a non-issue. Spend as much nuyen as you think the UCAS CIA would spend.

-Availability rating is unlimited.

-Skill Groups capped at 6. Individual Skills capped at 6 (or 7 with Aptitude).

-No specializing within skill groups. Since there is no BP cap, there isn't any reason to rank up a group and then break it so you can add specializations.

-Remember, you aren't trying to make a character with 9s in all attributes and all skill groups at 6. Try to have a realistic approach to character gen.

-Being awakened IS a possibility. If you think you can make a better Bourne with an awakened character, then do it! However, keep in my that you have to be able to blend and not draw attention to yourself.



I think that covers everything. And I will be asking questions...not to be hostile, but to find out more about what made you build your character the way you do. Also, I'm open to any questions/clarifications you may have/need.

BTW, Wikipedia is a good source of info on the Bourne movies/novels if you need a little help.
TheOneRonin
Oh, and there is no need to give him amnesia. smile.gif

Lionhearted
QUOTE (TheOneRonin)
Oh, and there is no need to give him amnesia. smile.gif

why not? Convert the quality from 3ed and he gets extra BP.. oh right, no limit nyahnyah.gif
Synner667
Interesting..

I do think there's 4 different JBs, tho :-

JB from the books
JB with amnesia
JB from the film
JB as imagined in SR

The JB is not the same as the JB in the film, who is not the JB with amnesia [must be weird understanding a language, or knowing about guns, but not know why].


As for the SR JB, that's just conjecture and building a generic superspy, since he doesn't have Cyberware or magic - so we'd be adding what we think he would/should have.


Just my thruppence...
kanislatrans
I have considered the Jason Bourne concept as a PC but never got around to put him together.
However, if I were to build the movie JB then I forsee this in the build:

skill
acting (0)

biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
Critias
Starting point: lots of Melee Combat, Stealth, Influence, and Athletics skill groups (with Firearms group, but not seemingly as ridiculously high).

Everything else is gravy. wink.gif
Shrike30
Perception. Lots of it. He may not have known what was going on, but a lot of his surviving depended on his noticing details.
toturi
I was about to suggest the same but I realised with the limits of Skill Groups at the same level as individual skills, he could just do with a high Stealth Group.
Critias
Oh, crap, and Driving, too. I don't remember if that has a skill group or not, though (or if it'd be worth it, it's not like there's documented scenes of him going nuts on a motorcycle or quad or something). Whatever plain old "CAR" falls under in SR4.
Earlydawn
Obviously high unarmed skill, maybe even a disarming specialty, if anything.

Handguns, obv, and I think we can safely assume he'd be trained in long guns and automatics as well. We'd also want to look at good figures in terms of both shadowing and infiltration (defenitely with a "crowd" specialization), and at least 1 in disguise. He'd probably also be a 2 or 3 in Athletics, and at least above par with computer skill / Matrix. Slightly elevated skill in cars.

Stat-wise, he had a military background, so physical stats would be slightly elevated, and he's obviously both a very clever individual (high intuition?) and very strong-willed to make it through Treadstone.

He'd speak multiple languages, although to make it Shadowrunny you might want to just give him a chipjack and some high-class linguasofts. A couple knowledge skills that come to mind: "National Security (Surveillance)", "Covert Protocol (Deniable Assets)", "India (Goa)", "UCAS CIA Operations (Project Treadstone)".

I can't think of any real specific positive traits to give him, although I think you'd probably consider him ambidextrous based on that wacky fast fighting style.

While you said negative traits aren't necessary, I think it would still be really cool to give him a GMed 4th edition version of amnesia, or if you want to be really cool about it, give him that old ASIST-based brainwashing from Cannon Companion. Then you have all kinds of cool, in-story runs to try and get deprogrammed, figure out who did
it, ect ect.

Equipment-wise, assuming you want to go with "On the Run Bourne", he'd have all generic equipment. Currency would be certified credsticks, along with a good collection of two to four good quality fake SINs. Nothing bigger then a handgun, weapon-wise, and I'd stay away from all the ceramic stealthgun crap - the movies play him off to be far more willing to ditch a gun and "acquire" one later then risk it.

The only really radical thing I might recomend might be false front from Augmentation. In our world, there are techniques you could use to get past airport security, but I seriously doubt that he'd be able to hop flights and not get facematched somewhere, particularly when you consider that he's an person of incredible interest, and in 2070, cameras are everywhere! (Particularly in the AAA security sectors!)

Just my suggestions. smile.gif
Critias
QUOTE (Earlydawn)
I can't think of any real specific positive traits to give him, although I think you'd probably consider him ambidextrous based on that wacky fast fighting style.

Kali's better represented by just the Close Combat (or Melee Combat, or whatever it's called) skill group being very high. Edged Weapons, Clubs, and Unarmed? It's pretty much what we do. I mean, those three skills are pretty much an FMArtist's resume.

Ambidexterity is cool (and almost all our stuff does incorporate both hands), but IIRC the Edge just really doesn't do very much in SR4, so I'm not sure how necessary it is.

Does SR4 still have "Bland" or anything similar as a positive trait? Not so much to represent that Bourne is the sort of face you forget (I mean, he's protrayed by a Hollywood leading man, after all), but rather than he's trained to blend into crowds, hunch his shoulders a bit, has boring/plain overall features in theory, unremarkable haircut, yadda yadda yadda.
Fortune
QUOTE (Critias)
Whatever plain old "CAR" falls under in SR4.

Same skill as a quad or bike ... Pilot Ground Vehicles. wink.gif biggrin.gif
bluedragon7
I did my first Jason-Bourne-like Character in SR 2 after seeing the old Movie. My take after the first new movie for SR3 had been a KiMage with Skillwires called Talent, because he was talented in virtually everything.

After recently seeing Bourne Ultimatum i tried it with SR4

High Edge
Latent Awakening (for later Astral chamäleon, Adept or KiMage, a nice and fitting Mentor spirit)
Lots of Geneware (no fingerprints ect)
Blandness
Skillwires
Lots of bioware
Everything in highest grade affordable (less likely to be detected)
Lots of faked SINs
Lots of Karma for initiation (Masking, Adept centering Infusion) and to learn those skills that are not available as skillsoft (centering ect)

All in all if i compare the SR4 version to the SR3 converted to SR4 i need lots more Karma but somewhat less money
TheOneRonin
Whew...for a while yesterday I didn't think anyone was going to bother with this thread. Glad to see I was wrong. cool.gif

Okay, let's start:

QUOTE (Synner)

4 different Bournes... (paraphrase)


Right. Well, what I was looking for is a blend of Bourne from the films and Bourne if he would exist in Shadowrun. Specifically, I wanted to drop the amnesia part. I'm more worried about the character background and training than the amnesia plot device.

Also, we can go ahead and assume "our" Bourne is still working for Treadstone (or the 2070s version of it) and isn't being hunted.

As for the skillsets mentioned, yeah, I agree. In the films, we see him drive evasively like pro, whip ass (unarmed+knife+improvised weapons) like Dan Inosanto, shoot pretty damn well (at least a 4 in relevant skills, maybe better), and display a high degree of stealth/athletics skill. The one thing I'm not in TOTAL agreement with is the Influence group. I can see him having a general etiquette to help him blend in, but you never really see him being overtly social, nor do I think high levels of con, negotiation, or leadership. His etiquette should be above average, but the rest can be 1 or zero. Bourne is not Bond.

Concerning languages, the Bourne in the novels spoke French and some East Asian dialects, but the Film Bourne can be seen speaking French, Russian, German, Dutch, Italian, and Spanish. Chipped languages are a viable consideration, but I figure it's pretty easy for a native speaker to tell a chipped speaker from one who has learned the language normally. To me, that would make a case for him being taught those languages, rather than chipping them.

In terms of his fighting style, yeah, the choreography was 100% Kali. And Kali/Escrima/Arnis is probably exactly the style you want to train an Assassin in. Like Critias said, we train in Unarmed, Knife(single, pair, mixed), Cane (single, pair, mixed), and long blades. Pretty much the close combat group covers all of that. And a specialty in disarming probably isn't a bad idea. And I wouldn't bother with ambidexterity. It's a silly concept when paired with hand-to-hand combat. I've never seen a real fighting style (unarmed or otherwise) that didn't teach you to use both hands in some capacity. And you don't have to be naturally ambidextrous to use two rattan sticks to beat someone's ass.

And yes, Blandness did make it's way into SR4. It's only a -2 DP penalty for others trying to shadow/socially locate you, but it's better than nothing. I agree he would probably have that quality as well.

High Edge is probably spot on for Bourne as well.


As a side note, do the Martial Arts rules in Arsenal have any decent mechanics for styles specializing in take-downs and disarms?




nezumi
Bah, I had one of my characters actually make this for 3rd edition. I was amazed at how well (s)he did too. But I doubt the character would convert. Give me a poke if you still want to see it.
TheOneRonin
QUOTE (nezumi)
Bah, I had one of my characters actually make this for 3rd edition. I was amazed at how well (s)he did too. But I doubt the character would convert. Give me a poke if you still want to see it.

<poke>

wink.gif
Grinder
*pokes too*

biggrin.gif
eidolon
Ooh I'd effin' love to give this one a shot. I own all three movies and I'm about an eighth of the way into The Bourne Supremacy (the book). I may try to sqeeze in some time for this over the weekend.

One thing that always kills me in these exercises is that there's usually just no way to represent the character's talents in the amount of points given. I remember so many pathetic attempts at making Bond "legally" in SR3. Since you're removing the limit though... biggrin.gif
Cthulhudreams
Some obsrevations: Linguasofts are stated as 'Allowing the user to speak a foreign language as fluently as her native language' which implies a very high degree of proficiency, and virtual impossibility to spot the difference.

Knowsofts mean you really don't have to teach the guy anything. You can have all the knowledge 'ready to go' in a CIA databank and just feed rating 5 knowsofts, linguasofts and activesofts across as required. And because of this feature, every treadstone candidate is going to be packing rating 4 skillwires and a datajack.

Also, due to the amount of cyberware scanners out there, they are going to have a minimum of cyberware (aforementioned skillwires, datajack and probably eyes and ears) and what they do have will be standard grade. Turning up with deltaware at a security checkpoint means you can probably get through undetected, but if you do get noticed, everyone is going to have questions.

However having cyberears is about as common as being red haired, ie very, so no-one is going to care if you have standard grade gear.

But his bioware will be deltagrade so mages don't spot it when assensing you. They'd need too many hits.

So I reckon bourne is going to look like an amped up bio sammie (muscle toner 4, chemical glands, synaptic booster 3, orthoskin 3, etc, etc, etc), mentally reconditioned from prime sinless recruits who has skillsofts so he can pull whatever he needs out of his ass, and a few core skills at very high ratings indeed (athletics 6, perception 6, maybe a guns skill (almost certainly automatics), and very possibly the stealth skill group, but not much else.)

Say something like this
[ Spoiler ]


That throws 20+ dice at everything he does in the movies (never read the books as ludlum causes me heartburn) is a l33+ hacker, speaks every language on earth and rolls 11 dice on any knowledge skill, and 9+ dice on every active skill. I have spent an infinitely large sum of money though, but I rationalize it as the CIA just downloading whatever he needs. Think the matrix.
TheOneRonin
QUOTE (eidolon)
Ooh I'd effin' love to give this one a shot. I own all three movies and I'm about an eighth of the way into The Bourne Supremacy (the book). I may try to sqeeze in some time for this over the weekend.

One thing that always kills me in these exercises is that there's usually just no way to represent the character's talents in the amount of points given. I remember so many pathetic attempts at making Bond "legally" in SR3. Since you're removing the limit though... biggrin.gif

Yeah...even using FrankTrollman's rules, it's still taking me over 600 BPs to build a proper Bourne...and I've crossed over the 50BP in resources max as well...and I STILL haven't bought any equipment.

Pretty much any supremely bad-ass movie/novel/comicbook character is going to be almost impossible to properly represent in SR4 canon rules with 400 BP.

But maybe that's a good thing. If you could build "Bourne" straight out of the box, what sort of mechanical growth could you expect? Not much, I'm thinking.

Then again, I'm the type that would be perfectly happy to play a skilled bad-ass PC for years and not experience ANY mechanical growth (besides maybe resource wise).

Grinder
The 400BPs-character aren't meant to reflect guys like James Bond or Mr. Bourne. They're more aimed towards eliet soliders and above-the-average shadowrunners, but not the creme de la creme.
TheOneRonin
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams)
Some obsrevations: Linguasofts are stated as  'Allowing the user to speak a foreign language as fluently as her native language' which implies a very high degree of proficiency, and virtual impossibility to spot the difference.


It seems that upon my re-read of the BBB, there is no longer any appreciable distinction between chipped languages and naturally learned ones. I'm probably a victim of older edition fluff + SR Novel fluff. I'm not sure I like that ruling, and I'll probably houserule it in my games. But I suppose if there really isn't a noticeable difference, a 2070s Bourne would probably be chipped with as many languages as possible.


QUOTE
Knowsofts mean you really don't have to teach the guy anything. You can have all the knowledge 'ready to go' in a CIA databank and just feed rating 5 knowsofts, linguasofts and activesofts across as required. And because of this feature, every treadstone candidate is going to be packing rating 4 skillwires and a datajack.


Personally, I feel that there should be a lot of "available on the fly" knowledge/skills built into the operative. Sure, if you are going to be posing as an international shipping entrepreneur, slot some chips on it. But most of the day-to-day skills/knowledge are going to be learned and not chipped.


QUOTE
Also, due to the amount of cyberware scanners out there, they are going to have a minimum of cyberware (aformentioned skillwires, datajack and probably eyes and ears) and what they do have will be standard grade. Turning up with deltaware at a security checkpoint means you can probably get through undetected, but if you do get noticed, everyone is going to have questions.


Well, I'm sure it says this in the book, but I don't think cyberware scanners can detect the grade of cyber. I would bet you need a bit of surgery to do that. Besides, Eyes and Ears are easy to have without drawing suspicion. Not to mention, having forged medical records indicated the cyber was install for medical reasons should pretty much cover it. I would say Delta or Beta grade Eyes and Ears should be standard.


QUOTE
But his bioware will be deltagrade so mages don't spot it when assensing you. They'd need too many hits.


Probably right. I'm not so sure I like the idea of Bioware being detectable on the astral anyway.


QUOTE
So I reckon bourne is going to look like an amped up bio sammie (muscle toner 4, chemical glands, synaptic booster 3, orthoskin 3, etc, etc, etc), mentally reconditioned from prime sinless recruits who has skillsofts so he can pull whatever he needs out of his ass, and a few core skills at very high ratings indeed (athletics 6, perception 6, maybe a guns skill (almost certainly automatics), and very possibly the stealth skill group, but not much else.)


Ehhh, I don't see Bourne as a combat monster. He is more of a stealth/infil/exfil expert, with hardcore hand-to-hand skills, a wide variety of utility skills, and very good firearms skills. I doubt he would stand be able to survive a stand-up fight with a tweeked street samurai, though. But he doesn't have to.
bluedragon7
the cheapest way off doing a Jason Bourne is to build him with 400BP and make that his Stats while entering Treadstone.

-Start him low on physical attributes
-some skills (perception 6, Stealthgrp+Athleticgrp 4, some unarmed 4(+2))
-Make him Awakend (or latent) Adept or mystic work best
-Blandness
-one high Connection (his Boss/Mentor/the one with the ressources)

-Then you begin by having him undergo genetic treatment (you might want to start with genetic infusions and see if they stick wink.gif )
-His training includes building up attributes and thoese skills he might later on need higher than 4, everything else as skillsoft
-Initiation in a magical group (with latent awakening you can do this after implanting)
-Implant high grade 'ware (with about 1.5 mil nuyen.gif you get him down to 1.something essence of usefull ware (all cyber delta, all bio alpha, bio in delta costs 3.5 mil more and gives you 1 point more essence))

Depending the amound of optimisation you can have him ready at about 150 Karma, the more the better, in the end he should have something like 30+ dice for perception tests (see the last film for an example)
nezumi
Fair enough!

When I was running a game on the Microsoft Shadowrun forum(now deceased, both game and board), one character asked for a Bourne character named Richard Roe, who was an expert rigger and assassin. One of the players in my other game is a wiz at making characters, truly amazing (she said "I'm going to be a troll rigger decker sam adept". I laughed...) So I handed the challenge off to him/her. The response:

[ Spoiler ]
bluedragon7
QUOTE (nezumi)
[ Spoiler ]


well thats,.. eek.gif i would require each spell to cost at least 1 point but appart from that it sounds familiar
nezumi
It's strictly legal smile.gif Honestly, it's a pretty tall order. Bourne was clearly pretty close to the peak of his abilities when the stories started, so using little cheats to reach that seemed reasonable, all things considering (however, if he didn't have amnesia and therefore actually KNEW his spell list, I'd disallow them in a heartbeat. The character basically sucked for the entire game as he had no idea what he was any good at.)
Fortune
QUOTE (bluedragon7)
i would require each spell to cost at least 1 point ...

As nezumi said, it is definitely legal as far as SR3 canon is concerned.
TheOneRonin
Wow...didn't take long for this thread to fall off the map...

Critias
I'd say the changeover (and the smooshing together of the SR and SR4 forums) probably made a lot of threads get bumped off the front page.

In vaguely related news, I just watched a few trailers for the upcoming Bourne Conspiracy game. It looks pretty sharp. They've even got Jeff Imada (the fight coordinator from the movies) in on it, and some pretty wicked looking fight animations.
Grinder
At least it wasn't derailed by off topic-chatter. wink.gif
TheOneRonin
QUOTE (Critias @ Feb 5 2008, 09:05 AM) *
I'd say the changeover (and the smooshing together of the SR and SR4 forums) probably made a lot of threads get bumped off the front page.

In vaguely related news, I just watched a few trailers for the upcoming Bourne Conspiracy game. It looks pretty sharp. They've even got Jeff Imada (the fight coordinator from the movies) in on it, and some pretty wicked looking fight animations.


Yeah, I watched the latest game trailer for it and have read a few IGN articles about it. The graphics seem a little subpar for a 360, but it's just about the best looking hand-to-hand combat I've seen in a non-fighting game.

Here is a bit about what IGN says about the fighting:

"At one point, three militia men surrounded Bourne, the adrenaline meter was activated, and time slowed as button icons began popping up. The player hit the button onscreen, and Bourne rocked a dude with a devastating punch to the face that left the villain spewing blood. Another button popped up, and Bourne threw an elbow over his shoulder and into the next baddie. Another button, and another bone-rattling attack. If one of those buttons had been flubbed, the fight would have gone back to the regular brawling mode."

Sounds like the mini-game will make some of Bourne's signature moves easier to pull off, though, in my experience, when you are watching for which button to push, you can't exactly enjoy the animations happening on screen.

To bring this back OT, what sort of hand-to-hand skill level do you think Bourne would have in SR4? Sure, in the movies he did seem to be VERY skilled, but most of his opponents were relatively unskilled, or with what would equate to fairly low dicepools. The only skilled opponent he faced in the first movie was the Assassin in France, and while he won that fight, he didn't dominate it like he did his other fights. So we are probably looking at maybe a 2-3 dice difference in pools in that particular fight. On the other hand, the fight with the swiss cops (can you even call it a fight?), and the combat at the Embassy were both VERY one-sided.

What do you all think?
Grinder
2-3 seems adequate to me, yes.
Critias
I'd pin him at a solid 6 in SR4, an 8-9 in SR3. Even with surprise on his side (which I'd say he had in a few of his mook-sweeping-up encounters) it'd be pretty tough to get those one and two shot KOs, otherwise. We're obviously meant to leave with the feeling that he's among the world's most dangerous hand to hand combatants, so I'd even say Aptitude might not be out of the question.

Against the other assassins? Well, that's where there's an awful lot of back and forth, with both heavily skilled and augmented fighters, both ready and aware of the incoming attacks, slinging a bunch of dice and just generally having a good brawl.
Grinder
Odd, I've never had the impression that Mr. Bourne is one the best (skilled) hand-to-hand combatants in the world.
Critias
It's an impression I may've gotten from the books as much as the films, but it's an impression I received nevertheless.

I, at the very least, don't think we're supposed to classify him as an untrained or pitiful combatant. In multiple scenes, he (pretty much effortlessly) incapacitates two or more police officers, Marines, field agents for the CIA, security agents of various types, etc, etc, in a matter of 3-4 seconds (if that). Assuming those sort of professional asskickers all have a 2-4 or so themselves in Unarmed Combat, along with respectable physical attributes (for an NPC), that's pretty impressive stuff.

If not towards the top end (but not boosted full-on into the inhuman levels of skill granted by augmentations allow in Shadowrun) of the spectrum, where would you place his Unarmed/Melee ability?
Grinder
As I said, in the range of a skill of 2-3, maybe backed up with bio/cyber/magic (depending on the build), but not higher. But as our impression of his combat abilities is very different (mine coming from the movies and not the books, which may be an important factor), I'm eager to read what other posters think of this. smile.gif
TheOneRonin
While I don't completely agree with Critias's evaluation of the hand-to-hand skill levels of Bourne's opponents, I completely agree that a skill level of 2-3 is woefully low and very unrepresentative of what we see in the Bourne Films (specifically the first one, since that's the one I'm most familiar with). We do see him rapidly taking down multiple attackers in short periods of time. I just don't think someone with a 3 in unarmed combat, or even a 3 in the close combat skill group able to consistently pull that off. It MIGHT be possible if Bourne had in-human levels of Agility (7+), but we don't see anything on the screen that would lead us to believe he is THAT nimble.

World-class might be pushing it, but I do get the impression that you'd have to look really hard to find someone better...and a ten-year, two-classes-a-week dojo blackbelt probably wouldn't last 2 seconds against him.

TheOneRonin
QUOTE (Grinder @ Feb 5 2008, 10:35 AM) *
As I said, in the range of a skill of 2-3, maybe backed up with bio/cyber/magic (depending on the build), but not higher. But as our impression of his combat abilities is very different (mine coming from the movies and not the books, which may be an important factor), I'm eager to read what other posters think of this. smile.gif



One thing that might help us understand how you rate Bourne's skills is by giving some Movie/TV examples of characters that would say exhibit martial skills superior to Bourne. We'd probably get a better understanding of your mindset if your examples exclude supernatural/magical/high-fantasy levels of skill, since we didn't see anything of that nature in the Bourne movies. Apples to apples, and such.

Critias
Well, to clarify, my impression of him comes from both the movies and the books. From the movies, I'm able to see what he's doing, recognize a move or two from my own experience, but appreciate the speed and power he's obviously meant to be displaying (at least where it's not overwhelmed by their shaking camera). When a trained assassin swings through a window at a character with his submachinegun and knife, and that character kicks his ass despite being surprised (and not having a submachinegun and knife of his own), I'm able to think to myself "Golly, I bet this character is supposed to be pretty good at melee combat."

I know in the books they outright state in a few places that he's one of the deadliest hand-to-hand combatants in the world. In one instance that really jumps out, he is handily capable of taking on a large Asian region's known best hand-to-hand combatant, while two times that person's age. Obviously the fight scenes as described aren't as visually appealing as the movies (not the least of which because I just don't like how Ludlum describes fight scenes), but when you've got Bourne pushing sixty and taking out, one on one, a guy who's the best hand-to-hand fighter in Hong Kong (or where ever it was), that leaves an impression. Best, flat out, in a large urban area (particularly one with a rich tradition for hand to hand combat, where blades and hands settle disputes rather than firearms)? That's pretty serious stuff.

If a human NPC (without genetech to help aid against the ravages of aging), pushing sixty, were to look one of your characters square in the eye in a game and honestly say "I took out the best fighter in the Seattle Sprawl, hand to hand" even ignoring all the other stuff (again, taking out several mid-skill combatants in one round, stuff like that) I know that guy had done... well, I know my characters would be impressed enough to think he's got a skill quite a bit higher than a 2-3.

Now, sure, with most of my PCs it would just mean they think "okay, I'll shoot this guy instead of try to kick him to death," but the point would stand. I wouldn't be earmarking him at a 2-3 skill.

One character would say "No you didn't, because I'm still sitting here talking to you," but that's just 'cause Connor's got an ego like most folks wouldn't believe, and about a half dozen combat skills that are nearing the double-digits before any augmentation.
TheOneRonin
I don't have the same familiarity with the books the Critias does, but yeah, that info pretty much solidifies it. And I DO think that's the impression the director/choreographer were both trying to deliver. Apparently, they weren't 100% successful. I blame Matt Damon.

TheOneRonin
Here is a compilation of some of the fight scenes across the three movies for those who haven't seen them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DzYZQrdALw...feature=related
Grinder
QUOTE (TheOneRonin @ Feb 5 2008, 04:50 PM) *
One thing that might help us understand how you rate Bourne's skills is by giving some Movie/TV examples of characters that would say exhibit martial skills superior to Bourne. We'd probably get a better understanding of your mindset if your examples exclude supernatural/magical/high-fantasy levels of skill, since we didn't see anything of that nature in the Bourne movies. Apples to apples, and such.


The SR4 corebook gives us:

Rating 4 Veteran

Very good at what you do; can handle difficult tasks with ease.

Firearms Example: Riot control cop, combat veteran, superior regular force (Marines, Airborne)

Rating 5 Expert

Star status: your expertise gives you a reputation.

Firearms Example: SWAT team, elite military (Rangers, Special Forces)

Rating 6 Elite

The “best of the rest.? Maximum skill level for “rank-and-file? unnamed NPCs and starting characters.

Firearms Example: Individual superstars amongst elite forces. Ghost-Who-Walks-Inside, Hatchetman, Matador

Rating 7 Legendary

The “best of the best? Someone whose expertise outranks all others in all of known history. Can only be achieved

with the Aptitude Quality (p. 77).

Firearms Example: “Wild Bill? Hickock, James Bond, Thunder Tyee


James Bond, given as an example for truly super-human skill, is imo too far away from Jason Bourne. But seeing that Rating 4 is labeled "Veteran", it's ok for me to put him in this category. I wasn't sure completly if rating 3 is already veteran, so I stand corrected now.


QUOTE (Critias @ Feb 5 2008, 04:53 PM) *
Well, to clarify, my impression of him comes from both the movies and the books. From the movies, I'm able to see what he's doing, recognize a move or two from my own experience, but appreciate the speed and power he's obviously meant to be displaying (at least where it's not overwhelmed by their shaking camera). When a trained assassin swings through a window at a character with his submachinegun and knife, and that character kicks his ass despite being surprised (and not having a submachinegun and knife of his own), I'm able to think to myself "Golly, I bet this character is supposed to be pretty good at melee combat."


If a human NPC (without genetech to help aid against the ravages of aging), pushing sixty, were to look one of your characters square in the eye in a game and honestly say "I took out the best fighter in the Seattle Sprawl, hand to hand" even ignoring all the other stuff (again, taking out several mid-skill combatants in one round, stuff like that) I know that guy had done... well, I know my characters would be impressed enough to think he's got a skill quite a bit higher than a 2-3.


Ok, you beat me. biggrin.gif I watched the youtube-link which had been posted here and have to agree that Bourne is a well-skilled fighter, which added to the fact that Rating 4 is described as Veteran, brings us to a skill leve of 4 fro him. Maybe even 5, but not higher.
TheOneRonin
QUOTE (Grinder @ Feb 5 2008, 01:25 PM) *
The SR4 corebook gives us:

Rating 4 Veteran

Very good at what you do; can handle difficult tasks with ease.

Firearms Example: Riot control cop, combat veteran, superior regular force (Marines, Airborne)

Rating 5 Expert

Star status: your expertise gives you a reputation.

Firearms Example: SWAT team, elite military (Rangers, Special Forces)

Rating 6 Elite

The “best of the rest.? Maximum skill level for “rank-and-file? unnamed NPCs and starting characters.

Firearms Example: Individual superstars amongst elite forces. Ghost-Who-Walks-Inside, Hatchetman, Matador

Rating 7 Legendary

The “best of the best? Someone whose expertise outranks all others in all of known history. Can only be achieved

with the Aptitude Quality (p. 77).

Firearms Example: “Wild Bill? Hickock, James Bond, Thunder Tyee


James Bond, given as an example for truly super-human skill, is imo too far away from Jason Bourne. But seeing that Rating 4 is labeled "Veteran", it's ok for me to put him in this category. I wasn't sure completly if rating 3 is already veteran, so I stand corrected now.


The "James Bond" example is complete crap. I've watched every Bond film that's been released, and I've never seen anything that would lead me to believe is any more competent with a firearm than any other British Secret Service agent, much less on par with Bill Hickock. I shook my head when I read that in the main book, and continue to do so every time I see it quoted. Oh, and based on what we see in the movies, if James Bond has a 7 in Firearms, then so does Bourne, because they both display roughly the same skill level when it comes to shooting (and hitting) the badguys.



QUOTE
Ok, you beat me. biggrin.gif I watched the youtube-link which had been posted here and have to agree that Bourne is a well-skilled fighter, which added to the fact that Rating 4 is described as Veteran, brings us to a skill leve of 4 fro him. Maybe even 5, but not higher.


That's cool, but could you give us some examples of movie/TV characters that you believe are BETTER? The only ones that come to mind for me are MAYBE Jet Li (Fist of Legend) or Rongguang Yu/Donnie Yen (Iron Monkey). And even then, those movies have enough wire-fu in them to disqualify them from the comparison.

Grinder
QUOTE (TheOneRonin @ Feb 5 2008, 07:39 PM) *
The "James Bond" example is complete crap. I've watched every Bond film that's been released, and I've never seen anything that would lead me to believe is any more competent with a firearm than any other British Secret Service agent, much less on par with Bill Hickock. I shook my head when I read that in the main book, and continue to do so every time I see it quoted. Oh, and based on what we see in the movies, if James Bond has a 7 in Firearms, then so does Bourne, because they both display roughly the same skill level when it comes to shooting (and hitting) the badguys.


I've never been a huge fan of James Bond, so I can't say very much about his combat skills shown in the movies. All I know is that he wins every fight. Sort of. biggrin.gif
But you're speaking of firearms in your post, while I was talking about unarmed combat only.


QUOTE (TheOneRonin @ Feb 5 2008, 07:39 PM) *
That's cool, but could you give us some examples of movie/TV characters that you believe are BETTER? The only ones that come to mind for me are MAYBE Jet Li (Fist of Legend) or Rongguang Yu/Donnie Yen (Iron Monkey). And even then, those movies have enough wire-fu in them to disqualify them from the comparison.


What about Jackie Chan? And of course Chuck Norris. biggrin.gif
To be honest: at the moment I don't have any more ideas beside the two guys, but with some time to go through my movie collection, I may find one or two examples. smile.gif
Whipstitch
Jason Bourne is clearly one of the the most dominant hand to hand fighters in the setting he exists in. I really don't know what else you can say; in the context he's presented in he's top tier. He's got a 5, minimum, since he certainly qualifies for elite force superstar in a variety of skills and he handily defeats mooks extremely quickly despite "Friends in melee bonuses."
TheOneRonin
QUOTE (Grinder @ Feb 5 2008, 01:45 PM) *
I've never been a huge fan of James Bond, so I can't say very much about his combat skills shown in the movies. All I know is that he wins every fight. Sort of. biggrin.gif
But you're speaking of firearms in your post, while I was talking about unarmed combat only.


I'm only speaking of Firearms because the text you quoted from the BBB gives Bond a 7 in FIREARMS, not a 7 in unarmed combat. The main book says nothing about Bond's unarmed combat skill. If you think the unarmed skills he displays in the movies are indicative of Unarmed 7, then Bourne should be 9 or 10. Of course, my take is that Bond has to use some of his rank 6 or 7 Edge in just about every hand-to-hand fight he gets into to win. But that's just my opinion.




QUOTE
What about Jackie Chan? And of course Chuck Norris. biggrin.gif
To be honest: at the moment I don't have any more ideas beside the two guys, but with some time to go through my movie collection, I may find one or two examples. smile.gif


That's fair, and I would be thrilled to see what you come up with after reviewing your collection. Chuck has never done anything onscreen that really impresses me (though he could thoroughly whoop my ass), and Jackie Chan, while an immensely skilled individual, doesn't often play the "bad-ass" sort of character. Indeed, most the skills we see him display on-screen are evasion skills with a significant injection of Kung-fu.

And to clarify, I'm speaking more of a character portrayed on film, rather than a particular actor. No doubt Jackie Chan could quite effortlessly beat the dog shit out of Matt Damon, but I would easily bet on "Jason Bourne" in a fight between him and Chan's "Inspector Lee" from the "Rush Hour" franchise.

Apathy
Bourne's close combat skill in the books is portrayed as at least expert, and possibly elite.

Opinions might vary as to whether that's well depicted in the movies. The movies show him easily overcome groups of 2-4 verteran (possibly expert) attackers (cia operatives, assasins, policemen, etc.). I'm not sure what else they could have done with the movie scenes to portray expertise better. (Other than the obvious approach of hiring a more proficient martial artist for the role instead of an actor.)
kigmatzomat
I think the important thing with Bourne, from my limited recollection of reading the first book two many years ago and catching fragments of the movie on DVD, is that he is exceptional within his class. If you look at the other elite agency assassins they would have agility/reaction stats of 4-5 (high end) and unarmed/firearm skills of 5 (special forces equivalent).

Now remember that Bourne is better than they are. It could be he has an Edge of 7 and uses the extra dice liberally or that his skill/stats are 6 with specializations or that he's a spike-baby physad with improved initiative, combat sense, killing hands, and improved unarmed combat.
Grinder
Ok, I just had a chat with some friends of mine (while watching "Hot Rod" - great movie biggrin.gif) and none of us could come up with a movie character that is portrayed as a super-human close combat fighter.
That said, I stand corrected (again) and have to admit that Jason Bourne is probably a fucking good combatant, so let's continue and build him. smile.gif
bluedragon7
In a regular 400 BP Game and before Karma i'd give him:

Close combat group 4

(if you do his other skills with skillwires you also can have: clubs(martialarts)4+2 blades(MA) 4+2 and unarmed (MA) 6+2)

Agility 7 (including 2 levels Muscle-Toner)
Edge 6

2 Levels Kali (+1Die to called shot to Disarm, and may inflict damage with disarm)
1 Level Krav Maga (+1Die to called shot to Disarm)

This allowes for 6 Maneuvers:
Clinch, Disarm, Multistrike, Set-Up, Sweep, Watchfull Guard

Could make him an Adept with a mixture of counterstrike, improved Unarmed and critical strike
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