more magic discussions, spcifically: house rules Options

[djinni]

in order to not make shadowrun a game of "who kills which mage first" our group is toying with making drain force instead of half the force.
this is where I ask the opinions of the highly opinionated culture here =�

edit: I blame the genetic deformity of polydactyl on my typos...its genetic I tell you! (points to title)

This post has been edited by Redjack: Feb 8 2008, 07:06 PM

Reason for edit: Flagged as an SR4 topic

[Ravor]

My suggestion is to play in the world as presented in the fluff where ( Magic 3 ) is average and anyone with a higher Magic is a justifible bad-ass who garners all of the attention that such a rare person would.

Also keep track whether or not the Mage remembers to completely cover up his astral fingerprints, especially now that mundanes can take astral pictures once more.

Basically I believe that Magic is easy enough to control and balance that upping the drain simply isn't necessary and will in fact push your players to min-max their drain stats even more then they already are as well as getting Pain Editors implanted ASAP.

[Malicant]

I dislike houserules like that. "I can't deal with the mage properly, so I need to screw the rules up for him". You need to read the rules and fluff to magic. You will need experience with magic to deal with it properly, so ask for ideas here how to deal with ubermages. But don't make it impossible for regular mages to cast anything beyond force 1.

btw, remember that force caps hits, not net hits on the spellcasting test. Common mistake.

[Moon-Hawk]

I agree with Ravor. If you increase the drain they'll still be pulling the same shit, they'll just be doing it less often.
Remember visibility penalties. Remember wards. Remember spell signatures.

[Slymoon]

...

btw, remember that force caps hits, not net hits on the spellcasting test. Common mistake.

I just got to the magic section in SR4. (reading word for word sicne SR3 is so engrained) To clarify what I read was:

Force 5 spell can only have 5 hits. *prior* to resists correct? So the max the spell can do is 2x force on a 100% unresisted attack.

Also, regarding combat spells: all the resister has to do is match the casters hits? ie: If iI have 3 hits to cast a powerbolt and the target has 3 hits the spell fails, but I still have to drain.

Where as a physical manipulation must be resisted and soaked all the way down. Hits + base damage.

?


ps:
note to add the OP, The only time I ever did such a thing with drain for mages was if the scenario warranted it. ala: higher or lower magic level in the world. 'Course those were specific campaigns for Astral quests that immitated the changes.

I concur with the other posts, remember your modifiers. Was true in SR3 and looks to be true in SR4 as well.

[Ravor]

Yeah, direct spells are all-or-nothing, one of the reasons that indirect spells should be an honored part of every Mage's arsenal.

Well that plus the ability to make called shots, hit people you can't actually see, ect... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Malicant]

I just got to the magic section in SR4. (reading word for word sicne SR3 is so engrained) To clarify what I read was:

Force 5 spell can only have 5 hits. *prior* to resists correct? So the max the spell can do is 2x force on a 100% unresisted attack.

Yup.

Also, regarding combat spells: all the resister has to do is match the casters hits? ie: If iI have 3 hits to cast a powerbolt and the target has 3 hits the spell fails, but I still have to drain.

Yup, again. To cast a spell you need at least one net hit, so in your example the spell goes down the gutter and the mage has to suck the drain.

Where as a physical manipulation must be resisted and soaked all the way down. Hits + base damage.

Are you talking about indirect combat spell like Fireball? If so, they are handled like ranged attacks, so you dodge and soak.

[DTFarstar]

Also, and I can't stress this enough because my GM doesn't do it so he basically had everyone be an uber-badass magic resistor. The last like.... 5 spells I have cast at anyone but complete and utter mooks has been resisted completely by them having over 7 hits on defense. So, either he is using edge on every spell defense roll and roll well or everyone has Magic Resistance now, so my character is a shitty gunner and heal-bot. Anyway, I digress use perception penalties! If your Sam suffers it to his shots, your mage suffers it to his casting dice pool when targeting someone.



You realize if DV is equal to Force +x then almost all spells would have the mage resisting more damage than his target and affecting anything but humans would be insanely dangerous because of needing to beat the Object Threshold before hits start counting for anything right? So to affect say a gun with powerbolt you would need either 3 or 4 hits dependent upon the gun before your hits could even begin to count towards damage or anything and anything less than 3 or 4 hits would have you soaking say 6S Drain, P if your magic is less than 5. Assuming you do want enough hits to affect it at all which would be minimum 4 or 5 depending on gun type. Hell, at that point, they basically just shot you for free. Not to mention to average the hits needed your dice pool needs to be between 12 and 15 which is a HUGE karma expenditure.


Chris

[Slymoon]

Are you talking about indirect combat spell like Fireball? If so, they are handled like ranged attacks, so you dodge and soak.

yeah I think thats what they are called in SR4.

SR3 was Physical Manipulations: ala spells that bring forth a real effect like fire, water, ice, electricity and so on.

[Malicant]

Also, and I can't stress this enough because my GM doesn't do it so he basically had everyone be an uber-badass magic resistor. The last like.... 5 spells I have cast at anyone but complete and utter mooks has been resisted completely by them having over 7 hits on defense. So, either he is using edge on every spell defense roll and roll well or everyone has Magic Resistance now, so my character is a shitty gunner and heal-bot.

Another helpless victim of 'I'm not familiar with magic so I houserule it after thinking about it for 0.0142 sec.'. My condolences.

[DTFarstar]

Luckily, I'm a possession tradition mage with mostly support spells, but it is getting to the point where I don't use any of my non-support spells at all anymore because all I do is soak drain.

Chris

[djinni]

sorry redjack, didn't mean to make you do extra work.

I just got to the magic section in SR4. (reading word for word sicne SR3 is so engrained) To clarify what I read was:

Force 5 spell can only have 5 hits. *prior* to resists correct? So the max the spell can do is 2x force on a 100% unresisted attack.

Also, regarding combat spells: all the resister has to do is match the casters hits? ie: If iI have 3 hits to cast a powerbolt and the target has 3 hits the spell fails, but I still have to drain.

Where as a physical manipulation must be resisted and soaked all the way down. Hits + base damage.

yes except its a force 10 spells he casts all the time and only resists 4dv of drain in addition to having a spirit help with it he at most has only suffered one box of drain (physical). and stopped the fight with one spell. so again it becomes geek the mage, each side has a mage whoever kills the mage wins. so as stated before its not that magic is "overpowering" or cannot be handled... it is that the game is not shadowrun, it is "geek the mage."
use vision modifiers...um...okay...wait oh yeah I forgot there aren't any, or are negligable.
Drones are taken care of by the rest of the team, or hacked to be friendly (if the hacker is not in cybercombat with their hacker)
certain situations can be brought up to nullify the advantages magic has however if those become commonplace it will no longer be fun for the players to always meet the same opposition.

Another helpless victim of 'I'm not familiar with magic so I houserule it after thinking about it for 0.0142 sec.'. My condolences.

ah if only it were that I would rejoice with grateful abandon

[Malicant]

Force 10 with DV of 4? Now, that seems rather... iffy. Also, spirit helping him every time? That's a lot of money down the gutter. Unless he 'forgets' to bind them and lets them assist him anyway.

I smell the carcasses of broken rules.

[Moon-Hawk]

yes except its a force 10 spells he casts all the time and only resists 4dv of drain in addition to having a spirit help with it he at most has only suffered one box of drain (physical). and stopped the fight with one spell.

Sounds like the infamous stunbolt. So he takes out one guy with a complex action. Can't your street sam manage to take out one guy per pass, too? Also Malicant has a good point about Aid Sorcery. Is he actually binding all those spirits?

[Malicant]

Ah yes, Stunbolt. But that's really just one guy. Any Semi-Serious Sam can top that without risking to fry himself. Still, carcasses, smell. Something seems not quite right.

[djinni]

Sounds like the infamous stunbolt. So he takes out one guy with a complex action. Can't your street sam manage to take out one guy per pass, too? Also Malicant has a good point about Aid Sorcery. Is he actually binding all those spirits?

that would be stunball, edit: I misquoted his drain, sorry its a 6DV drain, [still much less then an elemental attack]

yes he's binding them, he saves them for teh overcast or the higher drain spells that he needs assistance in the drain. one spirit pretty much lasts for one run.

[Moon-Hawk]

that would be stunball, stunbolt is a -2 modifier not a -1

Nuh-uh. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

edit: in an effort to be useful: I'm pretty sure stunbolt is -1, and stunball is +1, so he should be looking at 6DV drain for a stunball, not 4DV.

[Malicant]

Not in my book, it isn't.

I found the carcass, now it's time to dispose of it. Stunball is +1 drain. Tell your mage player to RTFM. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) And your GM too.
Which totally proves my point of 'I'm don't know what is happening, quick, a houserule is needed'.

BTW, there seems still to be a corpse in the spirit aid closet. Check that, too. meh, your edit screwd this one.

Still he must be one lucky bastard. To get rid of 6P Drain you need somewhere around 20 dice. If I had such a pool, I would crit-glitch my character into oblivion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

But if he binds the spirits just to overcast... dude, you can totally screw him. Spirits start to use edge to resist his summons/bindigs for starters. That will be a serious money sink. More than it is now.

[djinni]

Nuh-uh. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

edit: in an effort to be useful: I'm pretty sure stunbolt is -1, and stunball is +1, so he should be looking at 6DV drain for a stunball, not 4DV.

yeah you caught me before I finished editing its that genetic mistyping stuff again

as I don't micro manage his finances it may be possible he's not charging himself enough but then its not a matter of not following the rules...a cheating player thread would be a whole different bag.

[Moon-Hawk]

So then which spell are you having problems with? Stunbolt, right? Or is it stunball, in which case he should be taking more drain, and without the benefits of Aid Sorcery unless he's paying those binding costs.

[Malicant]

If players start to think they can screw you with the rules, screw them back without houseruling. Enemy mage doing a Force 10 Mana/Energy/Stunball. Best thing, you don't need to worry about binding costs and final drain.

[Ravor]

Woah, hang on a moment, are the corps in your world run by retarded children? There are PLENTLY of Vision Modifiers that any smart corp can pile on, especially if the Mage doesn't have cybereyes (And Force 10 smells like the Mage saved a couple of Build Points and soft-capped Magic.). Also the sec-guards shouldn't be gathered together with a big "Too stupid to die." sign hanging over their heads.

Also how is this magical badass staying off the mystical radar while dropping his tac-nukes right and left? How does he manage to have the time to clean up his Astral Fingerprint everytime?

[Malicant]

He asks his other spirits to do so?

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

and correct me if I'm wrong...but I can't seem to find any reference to a spirit helping his summoner resist drain with the lone exception of ally spirits.

So this guy already has an ally spirit, or is he breaking the rules in yet another way?

[Dashifen]

and correct me if I'm wrong.

You're not wrong. There's no way for a spirit, bound or otherwise, to assist the drain resistance test unless it's an ally. In fact, that's one of the things that makes Allies so damned cool!! If you're letting a non-Ally do this, djinni, you're doing a great disservice to the balance of the game.