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djinni
in order to not make shadowrun a game of "who kills which mage first" our group is toying with making drain force instead of half the force.
this is where I ask the opinions of the highly opinionated culture here =�

edit: I blame the genetic deformity of polydactyl on my typos...its genetic I tell you! (points to title)
Ravor
My suggestion is to play in the world as presented in the fluff where ( Magic 3 ) is average and anyone with a higher Magic is a justifible bad-ass who garners all of the attention that such a rare person would.

Also keep track whether or not the Mage remembers to completely cover up his astral fingerprints, especially now that mundanes can take astral pictures once more.

Basically I believe that Magic is easy enough to control and balance that upping the drain simply isn't necessary and will in fact push your players to min-max their drain stats even more then they already are as well as getting Pain Editors implanted ASAP.
Malicant
I dislike houserules like that. "I can't deal with the mage properly, so I need to screw the rules up for him". You need to read the rules and fluff to magic. You will need experience with magic to deal with it properly, so ask for ideas here how to deal with ubermages. But don't make it impossible for regular mages to cast anything beyond force 1.

btw, remember that force caps hits, not net hits on the spellcasting test. Common mistake.
Moon-Hawk
I agree with Ravor. If you increase the drain they'll still be pulling the same shit, they'll just be doing it less often.
Remember visibility penalties. Remember wards. Remember spell signatures.
Slymoon
QUOTE (Malicant @ Feb 8 2008, 01:18 PM) *
...

btw, remember that force caps hits, not net hits on the spellcasting test. Common mistake.


I just got to the magic section in SR4. (reading word for word sicne SR3 is so engrained) To clarify what I read was:

Force 5 spell can only have 5 hits. *prior* to resists correct? So the max the spell can do is 2x force on a 100% unresisted attack.

Also, regarding combat spells: all the resister has to do is match the casters hits? ie: If iI have 3 hits to cast a powerbolt and the target has 3 hits the spell fails, but I still have to drain.

Where as a physical manipulation must be resisted and soaked all the way down. Hits + base damage.

?


ps:
note to add the OP, The only time I ever did such a thing with drain for mages was if the scenario warranted it. ala: higher or lower magic level in the world. 'Course those were specific campaigns for Astral quests that immitated the changes.

I concur with the other posts, remember your modifiers. Was true in SR3 and looks to be true in SR4 as well.
Ravor
Yeah, direct spells are all-or-nothing, one of the reasons that indirect spells should be an honored part of every Mage's arsenal.

Well that plus the ability to make called shots, hit people you can't actually see, ect... cyber.gif
Malicant
QUOTE (Slymoon @ Feb 8 2008, 08:32 PM) *
I just got to the magic section in SR4. (reading word for word sicne SR3 is so engrained) To clarify what I read was:

Force 5 spell can only have 5 hits. *prior* to resists correct? So the max the spell can do is 2x force on a 100% unresisted attack.

Yup.

QUOTE (Slymoon @ Feb 8 2008, 08:32 PM) *
Also, regarding combat spells: all the resister has to do is match the casters hits? ie: If iI have 3 hits to cast a powerbolt and the target has 3 hits the spell fails, but I still have to drain.

Yup, again. To cast a spell you need at least one net hit, so in your example the spell goes down the gutter and the mage has to suck the drain.

QUOTE (Slymoon @ Feb 8 2008, 08:32 PM) *
Where as a physical manipulation must be resisted and soaked all the way down. Hits + base damage.

Are you talking about indirect combat spell like Fireball? If so, they are handled like ranged attacks, so you dodge and soak.
DTFarstar
Also, and I can't stress this enough because my GM doesn't do it so he basically had everyone be an uber-badass magic resistor. The last like.... 5 spells I have cast at anyone but complete and utter mooks has been resisted completely by them having over 7 hits on defense. So, either he is using edge on every spell defense roll and roll well or everyone has Magic Resistance now, so my character is a shitty gunner and heal-bot. Anyway, I digress use perception penalties! If your Sam suffers it to his shots, your mage suffers it to his casting dice pool when targeting someone.



You realize if DV is equal to Force +x then almost all spells would have the mage resisting more damage than his target and affecting anything but humans would be insanely dangerous because of needing to beat the Object Threshold before hits start counting for anything right? So to affect say a gun with powerbolt you would need either 3 or 4 hits dependent upon the gun before your hits could even begin to count towards damage or anything and anything less than 3 or 4 hits would have you soaking say 6S Drain, P if your magic is less than 5. Assuming you do want enough hits to affect it at all which would be minimum 4 or 5 depending on gun type. Hell, at that point, they basically just shot you for free. Not to mention to average the hits needed your dice pool needs to be between 12 and 15 which is a HUGE karma expenditure.


Chris
Slymoon
QUOTE (Malicant @ Feb 8 2008, 01:38 PM) *
Are you talking about indirect combat spell like Fireball? If so, they are handled like ranged attacks, so you dodge and soak.



yeah I think thats what they are called in SR4.

SR3 was Physical Manipulations: ala spells that bring forth a real effect like fire, water, ice, electricity and so on.
Malicant
QUOTE (DTFarstar @ Feb 8 2008, 08:42 PM) *
Also, and I can't stress this enough because my GM doesn't do it so he basically had everyone be an uber-badass magic resistor. The last like.... 5 spells I have cast at anyone but complete and utter mooks has been resisted completely by them having over 7 hits on defense. So, either he is using edge on every spell defense roll and roll well or everyone has Magic Resistance now, so my character is a shitty gunner and heal-bot.


Another helpless victim of 'I'm not familiar with magic so I houserule it after thinking about it for 0.0142 sec.'. My condolences.
DTFarstar
Luckily, I'm a possession tradition mage with mostly support spells, but it is getting to the point where I don't use any of my non-support spells at all anymore because all I do is soak drain.

Chris
djinni
sorry redjack, didn't mean to make you do extra work.

QUOTE (Slymoon @ Feb 8 2008, 03:32 PM) *
I just got to the magic section in SR4. (reading word for word sicne SR3 is so engrained) To clarify what I read was:

Force 5 spell can only have 5 hits. *prior* to resists correct? So the max the spell can do is 2x force on a 100% unresisted attack.

Also, regarding combat spells: all the resister has to do is match the casters hits? ie: If iI have 3 hits to cast a powerbolt and the target has 3 hits the spell fails, but I still have to drain.

Where as a physical manipulation must be resisted and soaked all the way down. Hits + base damage.

yes except its a force 10 spells he casts all the time and only resists 4dv of drain in addition to having a spirit help with it he at most has only suffered one box of drain (physical). and stopped the fight with one spell. so again it becomes geek the mage, each side has a mage whoever kills the mage wins. so as stated before its not that magic is "overpowering" or cannot be handled... it is that the game is not shadowrun, it is "geek the mage."
use vision modifiers...um...okay...wait oh yeah I forgot there aren't any, or are negligable.
Drones are taken care of by the rest of the team, or hacked to be friendly (if the hacker is not in cybercombat with their hacker)
certain situations can be brought up to nullify the advantages magic has however if those become commonplace it will no longer be fun for the players to always meet the same opposition.


QUOTE (Malicant @ Feb 8 2008, 03:52 PM) *
Another helpless victim of 'I'm not familiar with magic so I houserule it after thinking about it for 0.0142 sec.'. My condolences.

ah if only it were that I would rejoice with grateful abandon
Malicant
Force 10 with DV of 4? Now, that seems rather... iffy. Also, spirit helping him every time? That's a lot of money down the gutter. Unless he 'forgets' to bind them and lets them assist him anyway.

I smell the carcasses of broken rules.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (djinni @ Feb 8 2008, 04:02 PM) *
yes except its a force 10 spells he casts all the time and only resists 4dv of drain in addition to having a spirit help with it he at most has only suffered one box of drain (physical). and stopped the fight with one spell.

Sounds like the infamous stunbolt. So he takes out one guy with a complex action. Can't your street sam manage to take out one guy per pass, too? Also Malicant has a good point about Aid Sorcery. Is he actually binding all those spirits?
Malicant
Ah yes, Stunbolt. But that's really just one guy. Any Semi-Serious Sam can top that without risking to fry himself. Still, carcasses, smell. Something seems not quite right.
djinni
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Feb 8 2008, 05:19 PM) *
Sounds like the infamous stunbolt. So he takes out one guy with a complex action. Can't your street sam manage to take out one guy per pass, too? Also Malicant has a good point about Aid Sorcery. Is he actually binding all those spirits?

that would be stunball, edit: I misquoted his drain, sorry its a 6DV drain, [still much less then an elemental attack]

yes he's binding them, he saves them for teh overcast or the higher drain spells that he needs assistance in the drain. one spirit pretty much lasts for one run.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (djinni @ Feb 8 2008, 04:30 PM) *
that would be stunball, stunbolt is a -2 modifier not a -1

Nuh-uh. nyahnyah.gif

edit: in an effort to be useful: I'm pretty sure stunbolt is -1, and stunball is +1, so he should be looking at 6DV drain for a stunball, not 4DV.
Malicant
Not in my book, it isn't.

I found the carcass, now it's time to dispose of it. Stunball is +1 drain. Tell your mage player to RTFM. grinbig.gif And your GM too.
Which totally proves my point of 'I'm don't know what is happening, quick, a houserule is needed'.

BTW, there seems still to be a corpse in the spirit aid closet. Check that, too. meh, your edit screwd this one.

Still he must be one lucky bastard. To get rid of 6P Drain you need somewhere around 20 dice. If I had such a pool, I would crit-glitch my character into oblivion. biggrin.gif

But if he binds the spirits just to overcast... dude, you can totally screw him. Spirits start to use edge to resist his summons/bindigs for starters. That will be a serious money sink. More than it is now.
djinni
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Feb 8 2008, 05:32 PM) *
Nuh-uh. nyahnyah.gif

edit: in an effort to be useful: I'm pretty sure stunbolt is -1, and stunball is +1, so he should be looking at 6DV drain for a stunball, not 4DV.

yeah you caught me before I finished editing its that genetic mistyping stuff again

as I don't micro manage his finances it may be possible he's not charging himself enough but then its not a matter of not following the rules...a cheating player thread would be a whole different bag.
Moon-Hawk
So then which spell are you having problems with? Stunbolt, right? Or is it stunball, in which case he should be taking more drain, and without the benefits of Aid Sorcery unless he's paying those binding costs.
Malicant
If players start to think they can screw you with the rules, screw them back without houseruling. Enemy mage doing a Force 10 Mana/Energy/Stunball. Best thing, you don't need to worry about binding costs and final drain.
Ravor
Woah, hang on a moment, are the corps in your world run by retarded children? There are PLENTLY of Vision Modifiers that any smart corp can pile on, especially if the Mage doesn't have cybereyes (And Force 10 smells like the Mage saved a couple of Build Points and soft-capped Magic.). Also the sec-guards shouldn't be gathered together with a big "Too stupid to die." sign hanging over their heads.

Also how is this magical badass staying off the mystical radar while dropping his tac-nukes right and left? How does he manage to have the time to clean up his Astral Fingerprint everytime?
Malicant
He asks his other spirits to do so?
Mr. Unpronounceable
and correct me if I'm wrong...but I can't seem to find any reference to a spirit helping his summoner resist drain with the lone exception of ally spirits.

So this guy already has an ally spirit, or is he breaking the rules in yet another way?
Dashifen
QUOTE (Mr. Unpronounceable @ Feb 8 2008, 03:59 PM) *
and correct me if I'm wrong.


You're not wrong. There's no way for a spirit, bound or otherwise, to assist the drain resistance test unless it's an ally. In fact, that's one of the things that makes Allies so damned cool!! If you're letting a non-Ally do this, djinni, you're doing a great disservice to the balance of the game.
djinni
QUOTE (Mr. Unpronounceable @ Feb 8 2008, 05:59 PM) *
and correct me if I'm wrong...but I can't seem to find any reference to a spirit helping his summoner resist drain with the lone exception of ally spirits.

he's holding dice back from casting in order to assist with drain and making up for the lack of casting dice with spirit assist.
no Ravor he hard capped his magic and then took cyber...lots of cyber (only one point of essence though)
and started with raw materials for binding spirits.
and focuses...
as far as I know on paper the character is legit however with the question of how expensive it would be for the spirits I will be checking in on how much he's charging for the spirits. however after thought I think its probably also legit, or just marginally on the edge.
Dashifen
I don't think that's allowed in SR4. You don't get to hold off dice on spellcasting to resist drain any more.
Ravor
I'm not entirely convinced that Spirits can erase Astral Fingerprints, but I think I'd allow it at a cost of a Service per spell, still thats going to get real pricey real fast. cyber.gif
Mr. Unpronounceable
holding back dice...

um, no - that's an sr3 and earlier rule.

The only thing you can hold back dice for in SR4 is reducing AOE.
Dashifen
QUOTE (Ravor @ Feb 8 2008, 04:18 PM) *
I'm not entirely convinced that Spirits can erase Astral Fingerprints, but I think I'd allow it at a cost of a Service per spell, still thats going to get real pricey real fast. cyber.gif


There's no rules for it, but I'd probably let an Ally do it since they're more in tune with their summoner than the average spirit. Maybe a bound spirit, but then only of the appropriate type for each spell category, obviously.
Ravor
Remember that ( Magic 6 ) is the same as ( Magic 9 ) was in Third Edition, so you are dealing with one of the most badassed magical mofos in the sprawl, what steps is he taking to stay under the mystical radar?
Slymoon
To add my 2 nuyen.gif the holding dice to add to drain is definately an SR1-3 rule. Back with a true combat pool. ala: bucket o'dice to add to which test you want. (in this case casting or draining)

Thats one of the hurdles I am having to get over right now as I read.
Malicant
Been there, done that. You'll get used to the new system and you will often try to apply SR3 mechanics that are deader than Abe Lincolns beard.
djinni
QUOTE (Dashifen @ Feb 8 2008, 06:16 PM) *
I don't think that's allowed in SR4. You don't get to hold off dice on spellcasting to resist drain any more.

we've taken
QUOTE
This is done by withholding dice from the Spellcasting Test. The caster can reduce or expand the base radius by 1 meter for every die withheld from the Spellcasting Test. Dice expended to change the radius of effect cannot be used in any related test, such as resisting Drain for that spell.
to mean that "you are allowed to withold dice for drain test."

if you can throw out a page hinting that spirits can't do that then it would be great.

even if drain was bad he could have a spirit of man cast out things like ball lighting, force 5 of that and no drain cuz he's a spirit (unless I missed something)
jago668
Well you can also use spellcasting foci dice to resist drain. Not the same as the skill dice, but they can add either way. I can see letting actual skill dice be held back for the same purpose. It would be a houserule, but it makes sense.
Malicant
They suffer drain normally. That's another SR3 archaic.
cryptoknight
QUOTE (djinni @ Feb 8 2008, 07:18 PM) *
if you can throw out a page hinting that spirits can't do that then it would be great.



Page 179 under aid sorcery it lists services... On page 178 it says this about aid sorcery
QUOTE ("BBB")
When a spirit performs the Aid Sorcery service, it adds its
Force to the summoner’s dice pool for any Spellcasting, Ritual
Spellcasting, or Counterspelling attempt, regardless of the
time required for the test. In the case of Spellcasting and Ritual
Spellcasting, the spell being cast must be of a type appropriate to
the spirit and the magician’s tradition. With Counterspelling,
the spell being countered must be of the appropriate type.


There isn't an Aid drain, and the Spellcasting test comes before the drain resist test.
Particle_Beam
Spirits suffer drain as well. No, you can't withhold dices for drain tests. After all, your drain test always consists of willpower + the second mental attribute important to your tradition, whereas spellcasting and summoning always work with the same rules (magic + sorcery/spellcasting or summoning/binding/etc.), regardless of tradition.

Forget anything what you learned in SR 3rd edition, and reread the rules for 4th edition.
Mr. Unpronounceable
QUOTE (djinni @ Feb 8 2008, 11:18 PM) *
we've taken

QUOTE

This is done by withholding dice from the Spellcasting Test. The caster can reduce or expand the base radius by 1 meter for every die withheld from the Spellcasting Test. Dice expended to change the radius of effect cannot be used in any related test, such as resisting Drain for that spell.


to mean that "you are allowed to withold dice for drain test."

if you can throw out a page hinting that spirits can't do that then it would be great.

even if drain was bad he could have a spirit of man cast out things like ball lighting, force 5 of that and no drain cuz he's a spirit (unless I missed something)


You took an explicit "cannot" as "can"?

neat trick
Malicant
That's what I call art.
Jackstand
I think what he meant is that because it says that you can't use those dice that you withhold for changing area towards resisting drain, that you are allowed to withhold dice otherwise for the purpose of resisting drain.
Mr. Unpronounceable
but...but...

that's the only reference to withholding dice in the entire book!

You can lose dice, gain dice, split dice, and in a whole 1 instance (reducing AOE) withhold dice.


Gah! it's like when a SR1->SR2 legacy shaman (that I used to play with) discovered he couldn't use his spell pool to summon spirits in SR3. Not that he was ever supposed to have that ability.
djinni
QUOTE (Mr. Unpronounceable @ Feb 8 2008, 07:40 PM) *
You took an explicit "cannot" as "can"?

the explicit cannot says that you cannot withold dice to do "A" and in addition to that do "B"
he is not witholding dice for a purpose...and using them for a different purpose.
he is witholding dice for a purpose...and using them for that purpose.

Crypto I meant the removing astral signatures not the drain bit...as he is not using spirits to aide in the drain
Dashifen
Right but there's no rules to allow what he's doing. You've instituted a house rule -- albeit a rule that existed in previous editions -- with respect to withholding dice on a Spellcasting test and then applying those dice to a Drain Resistance test. The only purpose for withheld dice on a Spellcasting Test is to control the radius of an area effect spell. Anything else is house rule.

As for using spirits to resist drain, I call your attention to the fact pointed out above that such a service does not appear in SR4 under spirit services, nor does it appear with respect to bound spirit services. The only place that an assist by a spirit with respect to drain is mentioned is in Street Magic on page 105 under Ally Spirit Abilities:

QUOTE
As a service, an ally spirit may take the Drain for a spell its
summoner is casting in his stead. The ally’s Magic attribute is used
to determine if the Drain is Physical or not. Alternately, the char-
acter can buy an extra success on any Drain Resistance Test at the
cost of the ally suffering one box of Physical Drain (no resistance
test allowed). In either case, this is an agonizing process for the
spirit, and if used frequently will encourage animosity in the ally.


djinni
QUOTE (Dashifen @ Feb 8 2008, 08:09 PM) *
Right but there's no rules to allow what he's doing. You've instituted a house rule -- albeit a rule that existed in previous editions -- with respect to withholding dice on a Spellcasting test and then applying those dice to a Drain Resistance test. The only purpose for withheld dice on a Spellcasting Test is to control the radius of an area effect spell. Anything else is house rule.

As for using spirits to resist drain, I call your attention to the fact pointed out above that such a service does not appear in SR4 under spirit services, nor does it appear with respect to bound spirit services. The only place that an assist by a spirit with respect to drain is mentioned is in Street Magic on page 105 under Ally Spirit Abilities:

we have taken the description, while not a rule observed by others here does not mean it is not a rule, as there are other items mentioned and not described.

again...he's NOT using spirits to resist drain.
Malicant
This whole "there is no withholding for drain" business seems to be really hard to understand. The rules say you can withold dice to de-/increase AoE. That's it. Now, how do you jump to the conclusion, dice can be witheld for anything else?

Seriously, you have a problem with the mage resisting drain way to easily, we tell you he is doing it wrong, that's the root of your friggin problem and you retreat to denial.

Meh. It's getting late, I guess.
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (djinni @ Feb 9 2008, 01:25 AM) *
we have taken the description, while not a rule observed by others here does not mean it is not a rule, as there are other items mentioned and not described.

again...he's NOT using spirits to resist drain.


Well, since it seems you've already decided magic is broken, perhaps you can interpret the rules a tad less in the mages favor? By RAW you cannot withhold dice for drain (except from foci), since the rules doesen't say you can. Actually that's too late already.

Oh and by all means increase drain on stunspells, way too high drain compared to other spells.

Magic IS powerful, but in my game the mage was routinely damaged from drain and combat and used to pile up penalties when doing anything, which meant he had a few hard times summoning and spellcasting. For instance, binding spirits is very difficult if they are high force, and if you're a bit unlucky you risk chugging on 6-20 drain (force 5 spirit) and quite possibly fail the binding.

Area affect spells still beats every other form of attack in the game against multiple opponents, but when fighting a single tough guy or scattered enemies the Sammie's 19 dice in a chosen firearms kills as easily if not more than the mage, and can do so many times a round.
Ravor
Actually if I remember correctly Withholding Sorcery Dice for Drain is listed as an offical houserule in Street Magic, but even if it isn't it's not a rule in Fourth Edition unless you houserule it.

As for Spirits erasing Astral Fingerprints, show me where it says they can.
djinni
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Feb 8 2008, 08:42 PM) *
Well, since it seems you've already decided magic is broken, perhaps you can interpret the rules a tad less in the mages favor? By RAW you cannot withhold dice for drain (except from foci), since the rules doesen't say you can. Actually that's too late already.

its general consensus from teh group not me personally, although he's most likely not with holding much more than 3 dice anyway
even if he doesn't withhold dice from spellcasting that just means he's getting guaranteed 9 hits. (force 9 for the 5DV drain)
Charisma 7, Willpower 6, Focused concentration +2, Festish +2, Focus +3, that's 20 dice for drain test...

as for the "show where it says they can" argument you have the naysayers asking "show me where is says tehy can't." I jsut ride the fence.
Ravor
You know, I'm continuely amazed by the fact that if people would only admit that high dicepools breaks Fourth Edition and play at lower levels most of these headache posts would be moot, if you are playing with people who are world class best-of-the-best then of course they are going to be able to pull off hair-raising stunts.

Of course, I'd like to know exactly what cyber/ability this "uber Mage" is using to bypass the Vision Modifiers that any target worth hitting would be able to pile on fairly easily.
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