more magic discussions, spcifically: house rules Options

[djinni]

and correct me if I'm wrong...but I can't seem to find any reference to a spirit helping his summoner resist drain with the lone exception of ally spirits.

he's holding dice back from casting in order to assist with drain and making up for the lack of casting dice with spirit assist.
no Ravor he hard capped his magic and then took cyber...lots of cyber (only one point of essence though)
and started with raw materials for binding spirits.
and focuses...
as far as I know on paper the character is legit however with the question of how expensive it would be for the spirits I will be checking in on how much he's charging for the spirits. however after thought I think its probably also legit, or just marginally on the edge.

[Dashifen]

I don't think that's allowed in SR4. You don't get to hold off dice on spellcasting to resist drain any more.

[Ravor]

I'm not entirely convinced that Spirits can erase Astral Fingerprints, but I think I'd allow it at a cost of a Service per spell, still thats going to get real pricey real fast. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

holding back dice...

um, no - that's an sr3 and earlier rule.

The only thing you can hold back dice for in SR4 is reducing AOE.

[Dashifen]

I'm not entirely convinced that Spirits can erase Astral Fingerprints, but I think I'd allow it at a cost of a Service per spell, still thats going to get real pricey real fast. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

There's no rules for it, but I'd probably let an Ally do it since they're more in tune with their summoner than the average spirit. Maybe a bound spirit, but then only of the appropriate type for each spell category, obviously.

[Ravor]

Remember that ( Magic 6 ) is the same as ( Magic 9 ) was in Third Edition, so you are dealing with one of the most badassed magical mofos in the sprawl, what steps is he taking to stay under the mystical radar?

[Slymoon]

To add my 2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) the holding dice to add to drain is definately an SR1-3 rule. Back with a true combat pool. ala: bucket o'dice to add to which test you want. (in this case casting or draining)

Thats one of the hurdles I am having to get over right now as I read.

[Malicant]

Been there, done that. You'll get used to the new system and you will often try to apply SR3 mechanics that are deader than Abe Lincolns beard.

[djinni]

I don't think that's allowed in SR4. You don't get to hold off dice on spellcasting to resist drain any more.

we've taken

This is done by withholding dice from the Spellcasting Test. The caster can reduce or expand the base radius by 1 meter for every die withheld from the Spellcasting Test. Dice expended to change the radius of effect cannot be used in any related test, such as resisting Drain for that spell.

to mean that "you are allowed to withold dice for drain test."

if you can throw out a page hinting that spirits can't do that then it would be great.

even if drain was bad he could have a spirit of man cast out things like ball lighting, force 5 of that and no drain cuz he's a spirit (unless I missed something)

[jago668]

Well you can also use spellcasting foci dice to resist drain. Not the same as the skill dice, but they can add either way. I can see letting actual skill dice be held back for the same purpose. It would be a houserule, but it makes sense.

[Malicant]

They suffer drain normally. That's another SR3 archaic.

[cryptoknight]

if you can throw out a page hinting that spirits can't do that then it would be great.

Page 179 under aid sorcery it lists services... On page 178 it says this about aid sorcery

When a spirit performs the Aid Sorcery service, it adds its
Force to the summoner’s dice pool for any Spellcasting, Ritual
Spellcasting, or Counterspelling attempt, regardless of the
time required for the test. In the case of Spellcasting and Ritual
Spellcasting, the spell being cast must be of a type appropriate to
the spirit and the magician’s tradition. With Counterspelling,
the spell being countered must be of the appropriate type.

There isn't an Aid drain, and the Spellcasting test comes before the drain resist test.

[Particle_Beam]

Spirits suffer drain as well. No, you can't withhold dices for drain tests. After all, your drain test always consists of willpower + the second mental attribute important to your tradition, whereas spellcasting and summoning always work with the same rules (magic + sorcery/spellcasting or summoning/binding/etc.), regardless of tradition.

Forget anything what you learned in SR 3rd edition, and reread the rules for 4th edition.

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

we've taken

This is done by withholding dice from the Spellcasting Test. The caster can reduce or expand the base radius by 1 meter for every die withheld from the Spellcasting Test. Dice expended to change the radius of effect cannot be used in any related test, such as resisting Drain for that spell.

to mean that "you are allowed to withold dice for drain test."

if you can throw out a page hinting that spirits can't do that then it would be great.

even if drain was bad he could have a spirit of man cast out things like ball lighting, force 5 of that and no drain cuz he's a spirit (unless I missed something)

You took an explicit "cannot" as "can"?

neat trick

[Malicant]

That's what I call art.

[Jackstand]

I think what he meant is that because it says that you can't use those dice that you withhold for changing area towards resisting drain, that you are allowed to withhold dice otherwise for the purpose of resisting drain.

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

but...but...

that's the only reference to withholding dice in the entire book!

You can lose dice, gain dice, split dice, and in a whole 1 instance (reducing AOE) withhold dice.


Gah! it's like when a SR1->SR2 legacy shaman (that I used to play with) discovered he couldn't use his spell pool to summon spirits in SR3. Not that he was ever supposed to have that ability.

[djinni]

You took an explicit "cannot" as "can"?

the explicit cannot says that you cannot withold dice to do "A" and in addition to that do "B"
he is not witholding dice for a purpose...and using them for a different purpose.
he is witholding dice for a purpose...and using them for that purpose.

Crypto I meant the removing astral signatures not the drain bit...as he is not using spirits to aide in the drain

[Dashifen]

Right but there's no rules to allow what he's doing. You've instituted a house rule -- albeit a rule that existed in previous editions -- with respect to withholding dice on a Spellcasting test and then applying those dice to a Drain Resistance test. The only purpose for withheld dice on a Spellcasting Test is to control the radius of an area effect spell. Anything else is house rule.

As for using spirits to resist drain, I call your attention to the fact pointed out above that such a service does not appear in SR4 under spirit services, nor does it appear with respect to bound spirit services. The only place that an assist by a spirit with respect to drain is mentioned is in Street Magic on page 105 under Ally Spirit Abilities:

As a service, an ally spirit may take the Drain for a spell its
summoner is casting in his stead. The ally’s Magic attribute is used
to determine if the Drain is Physical or not. Alternately, the char-
acter can buy an extra success on any Drain Resistance Test at the
cost of the ally suffering one box of Physical Drain (no resistance
test allowed). In either case, this is an agonizing process for the
spirit, and if used frequently will encourage animosity in the ally.

[djinni]

Right but there's no rules to allow what he's doing. You've instituted a house rule -- albeit a rule that existed in previous editions -- with respect to withholding dice on a Spellcasting test and then applying those dice to a Drain Resistance test. The only purpose for withheld dice on a Spellcasting Test is to control the radius of an area effect spell. Anything else is house rule.

As for using spirits to resist drain, I call your attention to the fact pointed out above that such a service does not appear in SR4 under spirit services, nor does it appear with respect to bound spirit services. The only place that an assist by a spirit with respect to drain is mentioned is in Street Magic on page 105 under Ally Spirit Abilities:

we have taken the description, while not a rule observed by others here does not mean it is not a rule, as there are other items mentioned and not described.

again...he's NOT using spirits to resist drain.

[Malicant]

This whole "there is no withholding for drain" business seems to be really hard to understand. The rules say you can withold dice to de-/increase AoE. That's it. Now, how do you jump to the conclusion, dice can be witheld for anything else?

Seriously, you have a problem with the mage resisting drain way to easily, we tell you he is doing it wrong, that's the root of your friggin problem and you retreat to denial.

Meh. It's getting late, I guess.

[FriendoftheDork]

we have taken the description, while not a rule observed by others here does not mean it is not a rule, as there are other items mentioned and not described.

again...he's NOT using spirits to resist drain.

Well, since it seems you've already decided magic is broken, perhaps you can interpret the rules a tad less in the mages favor? By RAW you cannot withhold dice for drain (except from foci), since the rules doesen't say you can. Actually that's too late already.

Oh and by all means increase drain on stunspells, way too high drain compared to other spells.

Magic IS powerful, but in my game the mage was routinely damaged from drain and combat and used to pile up penalties when doing anything, which meant he had a few hard times summoning and spellcasting. For instance, binding spirits is very difficult if they are high force, and if you're a bit unlucky you risk chugging on 6-20 drain (force 5 spirit) and quite possibly fail the binding.

Area affect spells still beats every other form of attack in the game against multiple opponents, but when fighting a single tough guy or scattered enemies the Sammie's 19 dice in a chosen firearms kills as easily if not more than the mage, and can do so many times a round.

[Ravor]

Actually if I remember correctly Withholding Sorcery Dice for Drain is listed as an offical houserule in Street Magic, but even if it isn't it's not a rule in Fourth Edition unless you houserule it.

As for Spirits erasing Astral Fingerprints, show me where it says they can.

[djinni]

Well, since it seems you've already decided magic is broken, perhaps you can interpret the rules a tad less in the mages favor? By RAW you cannot withhold dice for drain (except from foci), since the rules doesen't say you can. Actually that's too late already.

its general consensus from teh group not me personally, although he's most likely not with holding much more than 3 dice anyway
even if he doesn't withhold dice from spellcasting that just means he's getting guaranteed 9 hits. (force 9 for the 5DV drain)
Charisma 7, Willpower 6, Focused concentration +2, Festish +2, Focus +3, that's 20 dice for drain test...

as for the "show where it says they can" argument you have the naysayers asking "show me where is says tehy can't." I jsut ride the fence.

[Ravor]

You know, I'm continuely amazed by the fact that if people would only admit that high dicepools breaks Fourth Edition and play at lower levels most of these headache posts would be moot, if you are playing with people who are world class best-of-the-best then of course they are going to be able to pull off hair-raising stunts.

Of course, I'd like to know exactly what cyber/ability this "uber Mage" is using to bypass the Vision Modifiers that any target worth hitting would be able to pile on fairly easily.