more magic discussions, spcifically: house rules Options

[Particle_Beam]

its general consensus from teh group not me personally, although he's most likely not with holding much more than 3 dice anyway
even if he doesn't withhold dice from spellcasting that just means he's getting guaranteed 9 hits. (force 9 for the 5DV drain)
Charisma 7, Willpower 6, Focused concentration +2, Festish +2, Focus +3, that's 20 dice for drain test...

Man, with such high states, no wonder he's that good.

[Whipstitch]

I just wish you'd stop using the term "broken," Ravor, that's all. One GM's "broken" is another GM's "Hrm, I'm going to have to have the Johnson offer to pay these guys a lot... and then kill them with cyberninja counterspelling mystad drop bear ninjas on K-10." And no, I don't mean that with any irony, either. Having 17 dice in Bad Assery means that oddly enough, you're likely going to be able to do something bad ass, because your character apparently performs at beyond peak human abilities. The problem here is less with SR4 and more with GMs not taking the appropriate measures to realize that superhuman characters are best handled by ramming them with Citymasters and making sure that even the mooks toss a good dozen dice or so after appropriate modifiers in their appropriate skills. When your group is big enough that everyone is capable of specializing in their particular shtick it is becomes very appropriate to send them on the kind of high risk job that would actually offer a big enough payout to accomodate 4 or 5 people taking the run.

[jago668]

Of course, I'd like to know exactly what cyber/ability this "uber Mage" is using to bypass the Vision Modifiers that any target worth hitting would be able to pile on fairly easily.

Well with optical vision magnification, vision enhancement (3), low light, thermographic, ultrasound, and flare comps in a pair of goggles or contact lenses you are taking care of a good chunk of vision. Which isn't happening at chargen, but easy enough to do after a run or two. Putting most visibility based modifiers in a 0 to -3 range. The main thing that will hit a mage is the other penalties. Target in good cover (-4), and then either attacker in cover (-1), or attacker moving (-2).

So best case is no modifier, worst case is full darkness (-6), target in good cover (-4), and attacker moving (-2). Total is -12, that is a pretty big hit, completely negating a "normal" dicepool. Now add in the vision aid above (3), power focus (2), spellcasting focus (3), and optional aid sorcery (+1 to +6 depending). So you can very expensively negate 8 points, and even end up with a +2 modifier. Then if you take a mentor spirit it is possible to end up with another +2, for a -2 to +4 modifier. It all just depends on the specific magician and what they have available to them.

[Whipstitch]

While it does have a limited optimum range, it's also quite easy for an elf mage or any other meta with natural low light vision to simply take Vision Enhancement 3 and Eye Light retinal mods in order to have pretty decent vision.

[Whipstitch]

...

My connection and the double posts are getting out of hand.

[Ravor]

That's just it though, I consider Fourth Edition to be broken when it ventures into anime turf as it does in high dicepool games, and not only ruleswise, but also in terms of how the setting is presented through fluff.

Although I supposed I could say that Fourth Edition is Anikened at that point, but then people would have even less of a chance to understand my random ramblings and rants. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/facelick.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

Well with optical vision magnification, vision enhancement (3), low light, thermographic, ultrasound, and flare comps in a pair of goggles or contact lenses you are taking care of a good chunk of vision. Which isn't happening at chargen, but easy enough to do after a run or two. Putting most visibility based modifiers in a 0 to -3 range. The main thing that will hit a mage is the other penalties. Target in good cover (-4), and then either attacker in cover (-1), or attacker moving (-2).

So best case is no modifier, worst case is full darkness (-6), target in good cover (-4), and attacker moving (-2). Total is -12, that is a pretty big hit, completely negating a "normal" dicepool. Now add in the vision aid above (3), power focus (2), spellcasting focus (3), and optional aid sorcery (+1 to +6 depending). So you can very expensively negate 8 points, and even end up with a +2 modifier. Then if you take a mentor spirit it is possible to end up with another +2, for a -2 to +4 modifier. It all just depends on the specific magician and what they have available to them.

note that some of these goggle additions (as noted above) can't be used while spellcasting. Low light and thermo work if natural, bioware, or cyberware, but ultrasound NEVER works to target spells.

[Whipstitch]

See, I'd agree with you there if it weren't for all the anime level crap I've seen IEs, GDs, SR novel protagonists, Elvis worshipping vampires, and Otaku pull off in SR over the years. "This doesn't match my vision" ≠ broken.

[jago668]

note that some of these goggle additions (as noted above) can't be used while spellcasting. Low light and thermo work if natural, bioware, or cyberware, but ultrasound NEVER works to target spells.

Okay if ultrasound doesn't work, still leaves -3 as the highest you can get on a visibility modifier. Now where did I miss the low-light/thermo stuff only working as cyber? I just want to go read it, since I missed it somewhere evidently.

[Fortune]

As I mentioned in another thread (but hey, redundancy is fun, and it's applicable here as well), there are those that feel external (ie non-implanted) eyeware blocks Astral Perception, as glass is opaque on the Astral.

[Ravor]

Sure, but one of Fourth Edition's focus is supposedly to return to the street and to back away from all of the anime garbage that existed in previous editions. Now whether or not it has suceeded is another matter entirely. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

However, something that I feel is important to note is that you simply don't seem to see threads complaining about this or that aspect of Shadowrun being broken in low dicepool games, and that by itself either says that no-one is playing such games or that the rules tend to work better at lower levels.

Now please note that by lower levels I'm not talking about lowering the Build Point caps, or even playing "street gangers" just keeping the overall dicepools in the campaign lower.

[Dashifen]

A spellcaster can target anyone or anythg
she can see directly with her natural vision. Physical cyber- or
bio-enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot
targets, but any technological visual aids that substitute them-
selves for the character’s own visual senses—cameras, electronic
binoculars, Matrix feeds, etc.—cannot be used.

Vision enhancements in goggles, contacts, and the like all replace the mage's norm vision without being paid for in Essence. Thus, they cannot provide LOS for magic.

[jago668]

Eh that isn't so bad as long as they are not contact lenses. Very easy to push some glasses or goggle up off your eyes before you go to perceive astrally. Contact lenses, not so much.

EDIT (for Dashifen)

Ah, thank you. I just rolled right by that. So cybereyes it is. Well the vision magnification can be something else, but not like it is hard to fit into cybereyes anyways. So all the modifiers stay the same, you just have to pay for it with magic (aka essence).

So that means I need to rework my shaman.

[Dashifen]

True, but then you loose any benefit of the vision enhancements. No low-light, no thermo, no magnification, etc. That could quickly increase the visibility modifiers that are faced by the mage.

[Malicant]

That's just it though, I consider Fourth Edition to be broken when it ventures into anime turf as it does in high dicepool games, and not only ruleswise, but also in terms of how the setting is presented through fluff.

Although I supposed I could say that Fourth Edition is Anikened at that point, but then people would have even less of a chance to understand my random ramblings and rants. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/facelick.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

You don't watch many animes, do you? Also, it's most amusing that the anime argument is also used to attack D&D 4th.

[djinni]

Vision enhancements in goggles, contacts, and the like all replace the mage's norm vision without being paid for in Essence. Thus, they cannot provide LOS for magic.

well, since goggles, contacts, and glasses are not mentioned...and in addition to that they do not "substitute themselves for the character’s own visual senses" they can still be used.

[Ravor]

Malicant

*Shrugs* I watch enough animes to understand that over-the-top hair raising stunts are par for the course. Can't speak for D&D 4.0, although over-the-top hair raising stunts is something that I embrace in High Fantasy so that isn't necessarily a problem in that genre.


djinni

Excuse me? Are you arguing that a Mage can use non-Essence vision enhancers for Magical LOS or just that a Mage can see through the glasses and use his normal vision for Magical LOS?

[nathanross]

AH, I wish I had joined this thread earlier, but Ill just have to work harder to catch up.

First off, I think the main issue has been gotten away from. Malicant mentioned it, but I dont feel as though it has been driven home enough: The problem is not with the rules (completely), but with both the GM's and the player's understanding of the rules. DONT let the players lead you around by the nose because you arent familiar with the rules. It is the GM's responsibility to understand the rules and interpret how those rules affect the world they create.

My previous GM feels seriously jaded about magic and wouldnt let us play possession traditions purely because one player took advantage of his ignorance and ransacked his game world. Now that may be an abnormal case, as said player was a total power gamer and did not enjoy the game unless he was in COMPLETE control of the GM and all the other players, but this CAN happen to you! So be vigilant and know the rules.

Second, if you are having issues with Stunball, you are not the only one. I think everyone can acknowledge that Stunball is the most effective combat spell in the game. Not only can you safely cast it at a higher force than Manaball or Powerball, but it is Direct as the Mana/Power, and is tallied on the Stun damage track, which is usually smaller by a box or two (many more in the case of Trolls and Orks). Im pretty sure Serbitar just plain raised it to the point of Powerball, which is not a bad move. To increase ALL drain codes by Force/2 just to prevent one spell from being abused would just be absurd.

Third, Elves, Dwarves, and Focused concentration. +Spellcasting dice is out, +Drain dice is in. Any intelligent person that reads the casting/summoning rules for fourth edition cannot help but realize how important drain dice are. While drain has always been important (I remember a dwarven mage with pumped willpower spending his entire pool on the drain test casting a Deadly Stunball and still passing out completely), it is now within our power to reliably resist ALL of it.

I also have a friend playing a 14 drain dice elf Black Magician that reliably resists Force 10 Stunballs. He does not always get 6 successes, but he usually only needs to cast that high twice on a run (A force ten stunball is usually enough to take car of a squad of anything really). Now this is a starting character, and while most characters (present company aside) will not be so properly min-maxed, this much resistance to drain at startup is almost scary. This is also before he has initiated, learned centering, taken a Fetish, or any of the other ways to maximize drain DP.

While I think having all these dice makes playing a mage much more fun, more responsibility rests on the GM to challenge this character without fucking the entire team, and without being unfair. If the character is really sticking his/her nose out, its your responsibility to cut it off. Dont metagame or intentionally try to kill the character, that is not how to deal with it. You need to come up with realistic backlashes to the blatant use of power.

If the character is really that powerful, more and more people will be interested in who he/she is. If they cant deal with him, its going to get passed up the line until someone with True Power comes a knocking. Dont underestimate the powers that be. They have taken a long time to get there and they dont like being pushed around by some upstart. Of course, this backlash should not be instantaneous. If you start having GD's knocking on the door, without first giving some kind of hint that the character is stepping on the wrong toes, you will just have player rebellion. You should always give the players a chance, even if you dont think they deserve it.

[FriendoftheDork]

its general consensus from teh group not me personally, although he's most likely not with holding much more than 3 dice anyway
even if he doesn't withhold dice from spellcasting that just means he's getting guaranteed 9 hits. (force 9 for the 5DV drain)
Charisma 7, Willpower 6, Focused concentration +2, Festish +2, Focus +3, that's 20 dice for drain test...

as for the "show where it says they can" argument you have the naysayers asking "show me where is says tehy can't." I jsut ride the fence.

Ouch this guy is either a munchkin or a VERY experienced character. No wonder you're having problems. Although, at this power level the rest of the party should have an equivalent dice pool for their fields of expertise, and let's face it Ares Alpha can perform rather well, especially when you start lobbing grenades as well.

The mage in out group had only half that amount of dice, which made the game alot more balanced. Sure he did fire off a force 10 stunball once taking out an enemy mage and 2 spirits in one go, but that left him with alot of physical drain that almost killed him when he walked into a booby trap later in the session.

Still I advise you to change the ruling. Is it the general consensus that the mage should handle all combat single-handedly while the other players are fiddling their thumbs? If not, make them agree that "if it's not forbidden it's allowed" doesen't apply to all game rules. I mean, nothing in the rules say you CAN'T use the stunball spell to summon a nuclear bomb and wipe out Seattle, does it? Ok extreme example but really RPG rules cannot be as exhaustive as the LAW, where they have to make laws for every possible situation. 3 dice might not seem alot compared to 20, but every drop counts. That's one less damage he can "auto-soak." BTW Are you aware of how many BPs are required to get those stats at character creation?

[djinni]

Ouch this guy is either a munchkin or a VERY experienced character.

well considering the term munchkin is defining roleplay style and not the rules on a character sheet, I think you mean power gamer, and no he's not.

BTW Are you aware of how many BPs are required to get those stats at character creation?

163

Ah it feel SO much better to not have to read everything off a PDA, and look no typos either!

[djinni]

OH no its CONTAGIOUS!!!

[Ryu]

I also have a friend playing a 14 drain dice elf Black Magician that reliably resists Force 10 Stunballs. He does not always get 6 successes, but he usually only needs to cast that high twice on a run (A force ten stunball is usually enough to take car of a squad of anything really). Now this is a starting character, and while most characters (present company aside) will not be so properly min-maxed, this much resistance to drain at startup is almost scary. This is also before he has initiated, learned centering, taken a Fetish, or any of the other ways to maximize drain DP.

While I think having all these dice makes playing a mage much more fun, more responsibility rests on the GM to challenge this character without fucking the entire team, and without being unfair. If the character is really sticking his/her nose out, its your responsibility to cut it off. Dont metagame or intentionally try to kill the character, that is not how to deal with it. You need to come up with realistic backlashes to the blatant use of power.

The responsibility is on the GM that approves to run a game for such a character. Note that a magic rating of 3 works in most cases, your player does not NEED more. A magic rating of 4 is good, beyond that you have to work if you want to challenge the mage. I have run a game for a magic 6 semi-toxic avenger mage, and from that experience I´ll say that the problem areas are high-force bound spirits and mana-based combat spells. The first can be limited by using edge to resist binding, the second was solved by *gasp* talking about it (The player took Acid Wave instead, the char was tuned enough to pull it off).

[Malicant]

Malicant

*Shrugs* I watch enough animes to understand that over-the-top hair raising stunts are par for the course. Can't speak for D&D 4.0, although over-the-top hair raising stunts is something that I embrace in High Fantasy so that isn't necessarily a problem in that genre.

Obviously only the over-the-top hair raising stunt animes. Anime is not a genre. Superheroism is. It would be more fitting to compare that over-the-top stuff with american super hero comics, but hey, whatever suits you best, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Seriously, I watch tons of anime and everytime someone compares over-the-top stuff with anime I'm like "Huh? Oh... right, Dragonball. Friggin' 80s style (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) "

This is so off-topic... I will stop this now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

[Ravor]

I don't watch Dragonball, I was referring more to anime like Ghost in the Shell, Blood Plus, Bleach, and the like.

[Malicant]

That's funny, since Blood+ and Bleach is Dragonball all over again (basically) and GitS is not very over the top.

Damn, I wanted to stop this... my agrue feever is just to strong.