Astral perception, Intrepetations of "life" Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Lionhearted]

"The auras of living beings show their emotion, general health and magical nature. Enchanted objects show their magical nature, non-magical and non-living show only gray"

"The earth has a astral form..."

My question is: Where do you draw the line for what's living and not...
Trees instantly comes to mind does trees have auras? how about other plants?
How about rather primitive organisms yet visible to the human eye.. landworms? Insects? do they have auras?

Welcome to shadowrun philosophy 101

Definition of Life (Courtesy of wikipedia)
Homeostasis: Regulation of the internal environment to maintain a constant state; for example, sweating to reduce temperature.
Organization: Being composed of one or more cells, which are the basic units of life.
Metabolism: Consumption of energy by converting nonliving material into cellular components (anabolism) and decomposing organic matter (catabolism). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.
Growth: Maintenance of a higher rate of synthesis than catalysis. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter. The particular species begins to multiply and expand as the evolution continues to flourish.
Adaptation: The ability to change over a period of time in response to the environment. This ability is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the organism's heredity as well as the composition of metabolized substances, and external factors present.
Response to stimuli: A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism when touched to complex reactions involving all the senses of higher animals. A response is often expressed by motion, for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun or an animal chasing its prey.
Reproduction: The ability to produce new organisms. Reproduction can be the division of one cell to form two new cells. Usually the term is applied to the production of a new individual (either asexually, from a single parent organism, or sexually, from at least two differing parent organisms), although strictly speaking it also describes the production of new cells in the process of growth

[Ravor]

Yes, plants, bugs, and even viruses all have auras.

[Lionhearted]

Yes, plants, bugs, and even viruses all have auras.

That should make difficult assensing seperate targets in the middle of a forest correct?
(the tree issue has been buggin' me all day)

[Ravor]

Yep, it does.

*Edit*

According to Street Magic a forest should be worth either -3 or -4 before adding in factors like the Shadowclutter left over from dead brush and the like.

[Lionhearted]

Suddenly the astral world weren't as dull and grey as I'd image it, no wonder those elves always fancied forests

[Malicant]

Viruses are not alive. They should not have auras.

[Lionhearted]

Viruses are not alive. They should not have auras.

Isn't that a debated question?
however just read from street magic, it states that microbes has auras, Im not quite sure whether a virus is a microbe
.. thanks for the directions btw, I've been struggling all day with this question a tree doesnt feel, and auras is mostly of feelings how would a plants aura look then (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Malicant]

It's not. A Virus is just a carrier, a shell, for it's own DNA. It has no organells what so ever, if I remember correctly.

[Lionhearted]

"It has been argued whether viruses are living organisms. Some consider them non-living as they do not meet the criteria of the definition of life. For example, unlike most organisms, viruses do not have cells. However, viruses have genes and evolve by natural selection. They have been described as organisms at the edge of life"
Again Courtesy of wikipedia

[Ravor]

You can not have awakened viruses if viruses are not "alive" as far as the Astral is concerned.

[Lionhearted]

Refering to the HMHVV?

[jago668]

Viri are right on the edge. They meet 6/7 of the definitions for something to be alive. So by strictist judgement, no they are not alive. However they are as close as you can get to it without being alive.

So for shadowrun, maybe they would show up somewhere between. Not grey, but not full aura'd either.

[hyzmarca]

You can not have awakened viruses if viruses are not "alive" as far as the Astral is concerned.

We also have Awakened metals. No one is arguing that Orichalcum is alive.

[Daier Mune]

what about Artificial Inteligences? they don't fit all the points on the description of life, but the whole point of the AI is to flawlessly replicate the human mind in digital format, doesn't that count for something?

[Blade]

You know, I'm not sure that the magic cares a lot about artificial scientific definitions of what life is.

And you don't have to be living to have an aura: if something is magical or emotionally charged, it will have an aura.

[Lionhearted]

You know, I'm not sure that the magic cares a lot about artificial scientific definitions of what life is.

And you don't have to be living to have an aura: if something is magical or emotionally charged, it will have an aura.

Does that mean that Sindy's favourite teddybear whom she love more than everything else in the world, tell all her worries to and hug all night long.. have an aura?

[nezumi]

I rule that every living thing has an aura, however if the thing is microscopic, its aura is too. So whether virii have auras or not is pretty academic, since you can only tell if you're using a non-electronic microscope. I also rule that you can easily read whether or not someone is sick by looking on the astral (although not the particular nature of the disease. If it's bad enough, you could probably tell the difference between say virus, bacteria, awakened virus and giant bug larvae in his chest). Finally, I rule that pregnancy can be observed on the astral, as the fetus is an independent life, however there's a penalty for it being so small and for it being hidden inside a mommy (or, in the 2060s, a daddy). Literal test-tube babies are easy, but their aura is pretty weak (which is why clones don't work).

[Blade]

Does that mean that Sindy's favourite teddybear whom she love more than everything else in the world, tell all her worries to and hug all night long.. have an aura?

Yes it does. An aura that's somehow linked to Sindy's.

[Malicant]

Wouldn't the bear have Sindys signature imprinted on him? Psychometry style.

Only living things and magical things have auras. If you could create an aura on an object by liking it very, very much, you could make people like the walls of corporate enclaves very, very much. And that would be... wrong, creepy and contradicting to fluff.

So, I still say a virus has no aura. An awakend virus might, but that's really academic.

[nezumi]

The teddy bear doesn't have an aura because it isn't generating life, emotion or energy. It has an astral impression.

[Method]

So whether virii have auras or not is pretty academic, since you can only tell if you're using a non-electronic microscope.

And that would be quite a feat considering that viruses are too small to be seen by light microscopy, and there is no way an electron microscope is going to work on the astral.

As far as the living vs. non-living thing goes, viruses are not living by the scientific definition. They come close to meeting the criteria, but close only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades (with 2d6 meters of scatter - 2m per net hit). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

But I think the key is that whether or not something has an aura depends on the magical definition of life, which is much more holistic and (at least in previous SR canon) was based heavily on Native American beliefs that all things are alive in their natural state. They loose their aura when they become processed or polluted by technology. Thus a human looses essence when they are implanted with cyberware. Likewise a rock is alive and has an aura, and an ancient wall made of stone and mortar might have an aura, but the minute you grind that rock up and mix it into ferrocrete it "dies" and becomes an astral shadow. This also explains how orichalcum can have an aura.

And if you follow a naturalistic or shamanic tradition those trees might have feelings. I'm sure a plant spirit could translate for you... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Blade]

The teddy bear doesn't have an aura because it isn't generating life, emotion or energy. It has an astral impression.

My bad.

[JBlades]

And if you follow a naturalistic or shamanic tradition those trees might have feelings.

Ah, see now you've opened up a whole new can of worms with tree huggers and molestation charges that we were all hoping to avoid. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Rasumichin]

I rule that every living thing has an aura, however if the thing is microscopic, its aura is too.

This does not mean that bacteria and virii are astrally invisible.
One would probably not be able to see a single microbe, but when there's tens or hundreds of thousands cramped in a single spot, each glowing slightly, they definitely become visible.
Hence the fact that FAB are visible on the astral.

As far as AI are concerned, shadowtalk in the SR2 Atztlan sourcebook (by folks like Ehran and Dunkie, who should know) claimed that the Touring test would be unnecessary since true AI could be identified on the astral plane.

Biologically, they are not alive, but i don't see why a sentient being should not have an aura.

[Malicant]

Likewise a rock is alive and has an aura, and an ancient wall made of stone and mortar might have an aura

No matter how natural a stone is, it never has an aura, unless it's enchanted. Also, the most impossibly processed material in the world, namely orichalkum, has quite the aura. And that stuff has quicksilver in it. That's less natural than... I don't know, cow vampires from outer space?

Aura is not a question of natural or not, but of alive or not. Water, no matter how pure, has no aura and is pretty easily to pass (or at least I don't remember it to be astrally impervious).