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Lionhearted
QUOTE
"The auras of living beings show their emotion, general health and magical nature. Enchanted objects show their magical nature, non-magical and non-living show only gray"

QUOTE
"The earth has a astral form..."


My question is: Where do you draw the line for what's living and not...
Trees instantly comes to mind does trees have auras? how about other plants?
How about rather primitive organisms yet visible to the human eye.. landworms? Insects? do they have auras?

Welcome to shadowrun philosophy 101

Definition of Life (Courtesy of wikipedia)
Homeostasis: Regulation of the internal environment to maintain a constant state; for example, sweating to reduce temperature.
Organization: Being composed of one or more cells, which are the basic units of life.
Metabolism: Consumption of energy by converting nonliving material into cellular components (anabolism) and decomposing organic matter (catabolism). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.
Growth: Maintenance of a higher rate of synthesis than catalysis. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter. The particular species begins to multiply and expand as the evolution continues to flourish.
Adaptation: The ability to change over a period of time in response to the environment. This ability is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the organism's heredity as well as the composition of metabolized substances, and external factors present.
Response to stimuli: A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism when touched to complex reactions involving all the senses of higher animals. A response is often expressed by motion, for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun or an animal chasing its prey.
Reproduction: The ability to produce new organisms. Reproduction can be the division of one cell to form two new cells. Usually the term is applied to the production of a new individual (either asexually, from a single parent organism, or sexually, from at least two differing parent organisms), although strictly speaking it also describes the production of new cells in the process of growth
Ravor
Yes, plants, bugs, and even viruses all have auras.
Lionhearted
QUOTE (Ravor @ Feb 9 2008, 07:56 PM) *
Yes, plants, bugs, and even viruses all have auras.


That should make difficult assensing seperate targets in the middle of a forest correct?
(the tree issue has been buggin' me all day)
Ravor
Yep, it does.

*Edit*

According to Street Magic a forest should be worth either -3 or -4 before adding in factors like the Shadowclutter left over from dead brush and the like.
Lionhearted
Suddenly the astral world weren't as dull and grey as I'd image it, no wonder those elves always fancied forests
Malicant
Viruses are not alive. They should not have auras.
Lionhearted
QUOTE (Malicant @ Feb 9 2008, 08:05 PM) *
Viruses are not alive. They should not have auras.


Isn't that a debated question?
however just read from street magic, it states that microbes has auras, Im not quite sure whether a virus is a microbe
.. thanks for the directions btw, I've been struggling all day with this question a tree doesnt feel, and auras is mostly of feelings how would a plants aura look then wobble.gif
Malicant
It's not. A Virus is just a carrier, a shell, for it's own DNA. It has no organells what so ever, if I remember correctly.
Lionhearted
"It has been argued whether viruses are living organisms. Some consider them non-living as they do not meet the criteria of the definition of life. For example, unlike most organisms, viruses do not have cells. However, viruses have genes and evolve by natural selection. They have been described as organisms at the edge of life"
Again Courtesy of wikipedia
Ravor
You can not have awakened viruses if viruses are not "alive" as far as the Astral is concerned.
Lionhearted
Refering to the HMHVV?
jago668
Viri are right on the edge. They meet 6/7 of the definitions for something to be alive. So by strictist judgement, no they are not alive. However they are as close as you can get to it without being alive.

So for shadowrun, maybe they would show up somewhere between. Not grey, but not full aura'd either.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Ravor @ Feb 9 2008, 07:53 PM) *
You can not have awakened viruses if viruses are not "alive" as far as the Astral is concerned.


We also have Awakened metals. No one is arguing that Orichalcum is alive.
Daier Mune
what about Artificial Inteligences? they don't fit all the points on the description of life, but the whole point of the AI is to flawlessly replicate the human mind in digital format, doesn't that count for something?
Blade
You know, I'm not sure that the magic cares a lot about artificial scientific definitions of what life is.

And you don't have to be living to have an aura: if something is magical or emotionally charged, it will have an aura.
Lionhearted
QUOTE (Blade @ Feb 10 2008, 07:04 AM) *
You know, I'm not sure that the magic cares a lot about artificial scientific definitions of what life is.

And you don't have to be living to have an aura: if something is magical or emotionally charged, it will have an aura.


Does that mean that Sindy's favourite teddybear whom she love more than everything else in the world, tell all her worries to and hug all night long.. have an aura?
nezumi
I rule that every living thing has an aura, however if the thing is microscopic, its aura is too. So whether virii have auras or not is pretty academic, since you can only tell if you're using a non-electronic microscope. I also rule that you can easily read whether or not someone is sick by looking on the astral (although not the particular nature of the disease. If it's bad enough, you could probably tell the difference between say virus, bacteria, awakened virus and giant bug larvae in his chest). Finally, I rule that pregnancy can be observed on the astral, as the fetus is an independent life, however there's a penalty for it being so small and for it being hidden inside a mommy (or, in the 2060s, a daddy). Literal test-tube babies are easy, but their aura is pretty weak (which is why clones don't work).
Blade
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Feb 10 2008, 01:28 PM) *
Does that mean that Sindy's favourite teddybear whom she love more than everything else in the world, tell all her worries to and hug all night long.. have an aura?


Yes it does. An aura that's somehow linked to Sindy's.
Malicant
Wouldn't the bear have Sindys signature imprinted on him? Psychometry style.

Only living things and magical things have auras. If you could create an aura on an object by liking it very, very much, you could make people like the walls of corporate enclaves very, very much. And that would be... wrong, creepy and contradicting to fluff.

So, I still say a virus has no aura. An awakend virus might, but that's really academic.
nezumi
The teddy bear doesn't have an aura because it isn't generating life, emotion or energy. It has an astral impression.
Method
QUOTE (nezumi @ Feb 10 2008, 04:35 AM) *
So whether virii have auras or not is pretty academic, since you can only tell if you're using a non-electronic microscope.

And that would be quite a feat considering that viruses are too small to be seen by light microscopy, and there is no way an electron microscope is going to work on the astral.

As far as the living vs. non-living thing goes, viruses are not living by the scientific definition. They come close to meeting the criteria, but close only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades (with 2d6 meters of scatter - 2m per net hit). grinbig.gif

But I think the key is that whether or not something has an aura depends on the magical definition of life, which is much more holistic and (at least in previous SR canon) was based heavily on Native American beliefs that all things are alive in their natural state. They loose their aura when they become processed or polluted by technology. Thus a human looses essence when they are implanted with cyberware. Likewise a rock is alive and has an aura, and an ancient wall made of stone and mortar might have an aura, but the minute you grind that rock up and mix it into ferrocrete it "dies" and becomes an astral shadow. This also explains how orichalcum can have an aura.

And if you follow a naturalistic or shamanic tradition those trees might have feelings. I'm sure a plant spirit could translate for you... cyber.gif
Blade
QUOTE (nezumi @ Feb 10 2008, 09:01 PM) *
The teddy bear doesn't have an aura because it isn't generating life, emotion or energy. It has an astral impression.


My bad.
JBlades
QUOTE (Method @ Feb 10 2008, 12:53 PM) *
And if you follow a naturalistic or shamanic tradition those trees might have feelings.


Ah, see now you've opened up a whole new can of worms with tree huggers and molestation charges that we were all hoping to avoid. rotfl.gif
Rasumichin
QUOTE (nezumi @ Feb 10 2008, 01:35 PM) *
I rule that every living thing has an aura, however if the thing is microscopic, its aura is too.


This does not mean that bacteria and virii are astrally invisible.
One would probably not be able to see a single microbe, but when there's tens or hundreds of thousands cramped in a single spot, each glowing slightly, they definitely become visible.
Hence the fact that FAB are visible on the astral.

As far as AI are concerned, shadowtalk in the SR2 Atztlan sourcebook (by folks like Ehran and Dunkie, who should know) claimed that the Touring test would be unnecessary since true AI could be identified on the astral plane.

Biologically, they are not alive, but i don't see why a sentient being should not have an aura.
Malicant
QUOTE
Likewise a rock is alive and has an aura, and an ancient wall made of stone and mortar might have an aura

No matter how natural a stone is, it never has an aura, unless it's enchanted. Also, the most impossibly processed material in the world, namely orichalkum, has quite the aura. And that stuff has quicksilver in it. That's less natural than... I don't know, cow vampires from outer space?

Aura is not a question of natural or not, but of alive or not. Water, no matter how pure, has no aura and is pretty easily to pass (or at least I don't remember it to be astrally impervious).
Method
QUOTE (Malicant @ Feb 10 2008, 05:19 PM) *
No matter how natural a stone is, it never has an aura, unless it's enchanted.
Reference? How is it that the earth (made of stone) has an aura?

QUOTE (Malicant @ Feb 10 2008, 05:19 PM) *
Also, the most impossibly processed material in the world, namely orichalkum, has quite the aura.
And how is orichalcum processed? Magically yes, but certainly not with technology.

QUOTE (Malicant @ Feb 10 2008, 05:19 PM) *
And that stuff has quicksilver in it. That's less natural than... I don't know, cow vampires from outer space?
Or, I don't know, Mercury which is a naturally occuring element?

QUOTE (Malicant @ Feb 10 2008, 05:19 PM) *
Water, no matter how pure, has no aura and is pretty easily to pass (or at least I don't remember it to be astrally impervious).


QUOTE ("SR1 page 89")
Water, air and fire are also tangible in astral space, but astral beings can pass through them because of their low density. Water and fire do no harm to the astral traveler, but they do reduce the range of his assensing.

Malicant
QUOTE (Method @ Feb 11 2008, 03:30 AM) *
Reference? How is it that the earth (made of stone) has an aura?

The Earth is not made of stone. There is earth (huh!), plants, mikro- and bigger organisms and all that stuff. Also, stone.

QUOTE
And how is orichalcum processed? Magically yes, but certainly not with technology.
Or, I don't know, Mercury which is a naturally occuring element?

Ask a chemist what he thinks of a alloy of metals, of which one is liquid, and at least one other is a precious metall. Than let's talk about natural and processing. Even alchemical processing is processing and it is sure as hell not natural. Even SR states it is impossible. But still it is done. With magic. Not naturally. Where did I put my Bovine Vampiric virus again? biggrin.gif

QUOTE
Water, air and fire are also tangible in astral space, but astral beings can pass through them because of their low density. Water and fire do no harm to the astral traveler, but they do reduce the range of his assensing.

I'm not hot on SR1 books, but I don't think that contradicts my statement even a little. It still has no aura. If air had an aura, that would be quite hilarious, I think.
Lionhearted
about this earth, stone debate... where does the Gaia aura emitt from?
My money is on the earth
Malicant
I'd say it emmits from everything that is inside the earth. All those bugs, and worms, and bacteria and what will you. The whole ecosystem thingy.
Method
I quoted SR1 because it is the basis for the whole "natural things have auras" paradigm. The idea is as old as SR itself and has been a basic property of astral space and magic since the beginning. Ideas like cyberware essence costs and object resistances come from the same logic.

And the line I quoted is in a paragraph that explicitly states how "non-magical living things" are corporeal in the astral and gives water as a specific example. It also lists the earth, vegetation (separately) and yes air.
Malicant
Yes, that I understood. But even if they are corporeal on the astral, like is everything else from the physical world, it still does not have an aura. So, the things you said, do not contradict the things I said and vice versa.

Although I might be wrong on the "everything is corporeal" part. Just to lazy to re-read the friggin' chapter on astral space now.
Method
Corporeal = solid = tangible = material = having substance

Only things that have auras (i.e. that are living) are tangible on the astral plane.



Malicant
Now that's debatable. If you want to move through something with an aura you have to force yourself againt it. I don't think you need to do the same for passing through air. Or water. At least I have not read something like that. So, no, they don't have auras. Not in the save way a living thing has an aura.

Btw, if you astrally enter a building and go up the stairs, you notice they have substance. But not an aura. Just to toss more ideas into the pit.
bibliophile20
QUOTE (Malicant @ Feb 10 2008, 09:55 PM) *
I'd say it emmits from everything that is inside the earth. All those bugs, and worms, and bacteria and what will you. The whole ecosystem thingy.

That's been my thought, personally; there's evidence of the ecosphere reaching several miles down below the surface of the planet--extremophile bacteria, mostly, living on minerals and dividing maybe a few times a century. But down past, say, three or four miles, there's nothing alive.

Now, that being said, I can see the metaphor of the planet itself being alive, but that's because I'm a geology minor, and the mantle and core can definitely be described as the planet's beating heart.
Method
Well heres another quote for you:

QUOTE (Magic in the Shadows (SR3) page 80)
Mother Earth is a dual being having a simultaneous existance on both the physical and astral planes. Astral earth is as solid as normal earth so long as it stays connected to the Earth itself. Earthen mounds and similar structures are as solid and tangible on the astral as they are physically. Materials of the Earth worked by humans do not retain this property; cut stones, concrete, adobe bricks and similar materials do not have astral forms. Only natural rock and soil are part of Earth.

I think I'll stand by my previous statement that an ancient wall made of stone and mortar might have an aura.

[EDIT]And you force yourself through astral barriers (i.e. wards and lodges). You cannot force yourself through someone or something's aura unless it is diffuse like water, air, fire and dirt (according to the rules in MitS) but moving through dirt is described as "not unlike digging through the physical earth" and you can only move 1 meter every 30 minutes (base).[/EDIT]

As for going up astral stairs, if you can fly and pass through walls and floors why bother? And I would argue that the stairs have no substance so you can't walk on them.
Malicant
QUOTE (Method @ Feb 11 2008, 04:50 AM) *
I think I'll stand by my previous statement that an ancient wall made of stone and mortar might have an aura.

Well, your quote pretty much disproves that, since the stones, to errect the wall, have been removed from the earth (and were not earth, but stone to begin with). Unless someone put a ward on them, no aura for walls. Also, if you had read all my stuff, I said that earth does have an aura.
Btw, mortar is technologically processed material. Yes, I am nitpicking.

QUOTE
As for going up astral stairs, if you can fly and pass through walls and floors why bother? And I would argue that the stairs have no substance so you can't walk on them.


Sure, go ahead. Can't stop you from doing so.

QUOTE
You cannot force yourself through someone or something's aura

Yes you can. It's creepy, but you can do it. Oh, and just to make this one complete, you can force yourself through the earths aura. Good look surviving, though. Without an earth spirit you're pretty much lost in there.
Method
The quote said cut stone looses its aura. One could argue that natural uncut stone used in ancient wall would still have an aura, which is why I said might. That point is debatable.

As for pushing through and aura, please point out where it says this is possible?

Okay, I see there are rules for passing through aura's in Street Magic, but this is beside the point. I think there are plenty of canon references that state quite clearly that stone, water, air, earth, vegetation, etc. all have auras.
Malicant
And I'm pretty sure there are rules in Shadow Magic that allow you to die while traveling through the earth. I will investigate this later.

But back to your stone wall. How do you build a wall without removing the stones from the earth? That is surely a sight to behold, but I highly doubt such a wall will ever be ancient, since architecture tends to fall apart pretty fast. And even if someone build a wall (with mortar, which still is a processed material) without cutting the stones, they would be no longer part of the earth. So, no aura.

[edit]Uh, I foundet it. Shadow Magic page 112 and 114. Auras are insubstantial, Astral Forms on the other hand are solid on the Astral plane. The Earth has an Astral Form, it is actually a Dual Natured entity. But, you can force your way into the earth like you can force yourself through a barrier or ward. Nasty, but possible.

BTW, in SR4 only living and magical stuff has auras. So, your stones don't have an aura, they are part of the earths astral form as long as they are inside of it. Kind of. No aura for the ancient wall.
Method
You're really just carrying on for the sake of argument here. We could debate the ancient stone wall example ad nauseam, even though I have used the word might in every statement I made about it and even conceded that its debatable.

But in the end, the canon clearly states that stones have an aura so I'll stand by my original point that the magical definition of "life" is anything that is natural and unprocessed.
Malicant
QUOTE (Method @ Feb 11 2008, 05:29 AM) *
But in the end, the canon clearly states that stones have an aura so I'll stand by my original point that the magical definition of "life" is anything that is natural and unprocessed.


No, it doesn't. SR1 does, but that's a little outdated. SR4 says Earth has an Astral Form. Only living or magical things have Auras. A stone is not the Earth, so it has not Astral Form and it is not living nor magical so it has no Aura.
Fortune
QUOTE (Malicant @ Feb 11 2008, 01:41 PM) *
Ask a chemist what he thinks of a alloy of metals, of which one is liquid, and at least one other is a precious metall. Than let's talk about natural and processing. Even alchemical processing is processing and it is sure as hell not natural. Even SR states it is impossible. But still it is done. With magic. Not naturally. Where did I put my Bovine Vampiric virus again?


Orichalcum occurs naturally in nature in the Sixth World.
Malicant
But natural Orichalkum is diffrent from alchemical orichalkum. It's actually a variant of True Earth, but that does not yet matter.
nezumi
In the magical (NOT scientific) sense, the Earth is alive. As it is alive, it has an aura. Individual stones don't have auras any more than individual hairs do. I don't believe alchemical compounds have auras until they're actually enchanted, or at least in the radical stage, but I could be wrong on that.
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